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SarDonik

Ye Shiwen

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maxim

Don't forget as well that she is young. When you are 16 in your first Olympics, you have no fear of failure and will go all out to win the race.

 

Look at all the other young kids excelling in the race - the 15 yo Lithuanian girl who won the gold, the 17 yo American who beat Emily Seebhom, all in their first Olympics.

 

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PixieVee
Blondie yes but had she been a chinese teenager born and competing for another country and acheived the exact same thing no one would bat an eye lid and call drug cheat.

 

Do you really not think so? I think people would absolutely be questioning... maybe not as much, maybe not as loudly but I don't think NO ONE would bat an eyelid.

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Soontobegran
And this is SMH's response to the Guardian article above.

 

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/swimming-lo...0731-23b6j.html

 

It's incredible to think that she shot up in height from a 160cm girl in 2010 to 172cm in 2012. Let's just hope she's clean for her own sake.

 

 

I hope she's clean too. The fact that her team mate was outed for taking EPO in March this year is just a little suspicious though and a 14.5 year old female growing 12 cms in 20 months is also quite remarkable. Boys do this, girls are usually their full adult height by age 13/14.

She looks like just a sweet little girl.

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MrsLexiK

maxim thanks for the article -

 

Rice shaved a startling six seconds off her personal best time to hit 4.31.46 at the Australian trials. American Katie Hoff reclaimed the mark a few months late before Rice countered at the Beijing Games, reducing it to below 4.30 for the first time. In contrast, people seized on the fact Ye reduced her PB by five seconds to claim the new mark of 4.28.43 as genuine grounds for suspicion.
Rice then went on to swim 4.29.45 - so another 2 seconds from the trials to the Olympics.

 

Lochte had the race in hand by the time he turned on the freestyle leg. His other three strokes were good enough to give him a gold-medal lead and there was no clear and present danger ranging up on either side.

 

Ye had to hit the burners to motor past Beisel. She turned more than a body length behind and had to push with everything she had to catch the American. By the time she did that, it must have been clear a world record was within reach and she drove it home with Black Caviar authority. In any case, four other male swimmers did beat Ye's freestyle split.

....

 

If America - a nation of 300 million - can produced a Michael Phelps and Australia an Ian Thorpe, is it really so bizarre to think China - with a population of 1.3 billion and a state sporting program run with military precision - could have found his female equivalent?

 

But yeah she is Chinese and based on one team mate she must be a cheat. I hope if any Greek's do good this Olympics we will have the same articles written about them.

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purplekitty

Time will tell as it has in the past.

You would have to be very naive to not have any question in your mind.

 

Doping is widespread throughout elite and professional sport (it's around for amateurs). It's a logical consideration even if I disagree with the way most of the media handles it.

 

 

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BetteBoop
From what I gather of most sports at the level, they've probably all had at least 100 drug tests each in the lead up to the games, and will no doubt be tested after this performance. How about the media keep their speculation to themselves until such time as any announcement is made that she did in fact cheat?

 

I bet that if an Australian had done that performance they would be cheering about how wonderful the athlete was. Because only overseas athletes ever cheat of course. :rolleyes:

 

This.

 

No one believes Ian Thorpe is a drug cheat. Except everybody in the world who isn't Australian.

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SarDonik
This.

 

No one believes Ian Thorpe is a drug cheat. Except everybody in the world who isn't Australian.

 

He isn't Chinese. They have a bad reputation and it's for a reason. Their track record with swimmers doping is terrible. It's unfortunate for Ye Shiwen, but she's representing a country that has cheated time after time. If this was an American or British or Australian swimmer I doubt there would be too many eyebrows raised, but they haven't had over 30 swimmers banned for doping. Additionally this isn't the odd swimmer here and there whose coach has given them some anabolic steroids, these have been widespread, state sanctioned programs, with kids as young as 12 doping. Any speculation in the media about Ye Shiwen taking performance enhancing drugs is sad, but unfortunately it's something that is inevitable and the commentators are perfectly justified in mentioned doping as a possible reason for her performances. It's not fair and it's especially harsh on her if she is clean, but it's a sign of the times. 9/10 an athlete blows everyone out of the water or off the track with their times and it turns out they've been doping.

Edited by SarDonik

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purplekitty
This.

 

No one believes Ian Thorpe is a drug cheat. Except everybody in the world who isn't Australian.

I'll consider it no matter what country the athlete is from if the circumstances warrant it.

 

It is different to me though if a country has been found in the past to be complicit in illegal performance enhancement rather than the individual athlete.

 

Control and disapproval of this is really important because it's use has a flow-on effect right down into junior sport.

 

 

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mrsboof
What? no speculations that she is actually a man????

 

The media really are slacking nowadays.

 

I just had to quote this! LOL!

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vanessa71
Ever heard of Flo Jo? She set a world record of 10.49 in the women's 100m in 1988 and no-one has ever come close. She died of a heart attack at the age of 38. Hmmmm wonder why that happened. She was never "caught" but again it is accepted pretty much universally that she was a drug cheat.

 

She didn't die of a heart attack, the cause of death was suffocation during a severe epileptic seizure in her sleep.

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miriams
And this is SMH's response to the Guardian article above.

 

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/swimming-lo...0731-23b6j.html

 

It's incredible to think that she shot up in height from a 160cm girl in 2010 to 172cm in 2012. Let's just hope she's clean for her own sake.

 

One of my friend's from school did just that. She was hopeless at sport so pretty much no chance of her taking performance enhancing drugs. At the end of Year 10, she was approximately 5'2". I took solace in the fact that she was one of the few friends of mine who was still shorter than me (5'4") :laugh: She always had these long gangly feet which looked out of place on her slender frame though. Both her parents were fairly tall. In Year 11, she shot up to 5'11. The whole year she complained of aching joints and bones. The year after that, the same thing happened with her younger brother.

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Soontobegran

Whilst many countries have had issues with performance enhancing drug use there are definitely some countries which will be more likely to be viewed with more suspicion than others because of the number of cheats that have been exposed.

I don't think the majority of people would automatically think 'cheat' if an Australian or American athlete does an freakishly amazing time because whilst we have had our cheats we don't have a 'culture' of it.

China has actually deserved this reputation so it is not surprising that Ye has become a person of interest, particularly since her team mate was exposed and outed just in March for EPO usage.

If she is clean I feel sorry for her that because of her country's previous history she is copping this.

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Tilly007
She didn't die of a heart attack, the cause of death was suffocation during a severe epileptic seizure in her sleep.

 

Actually differs media source say different things. Some say sane suffocated during an epileptic fit and others say she died of a heart seizure.

 

Regardless, she retired when they introduced random drug testing. Even Marion Jones, a self confessed drug cheat, couldn't match her times.

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maxim
I just think "she" might actually be a "he" albeit with genitals modified :(

 

C'mon, there's no way she looks like a guy. She looks exactly like what she is, an Olympic woman swimmer. In fact, there are many other women swimmers who look much more muscular than her.

 

I watched the finals this morning where she beat Coutts to win gold. She comes across as a swimmer who is just a very, very strong finisher, not unlike many other successful swimmers out there.

 

 

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miriams

She looks like a teenage girl to me :shrug: She looks nothing like those huge women swimmers from China that were caught doping a while ago. Apparently Ye has received a lot of training here in Australia .... :thumbs:

 

Wood also said the Chinese, especially the women, keep their weight down and that is the "whole secret" to their success. They come to his academy with their own chefs and shop for food in Brisbane's Chinatown.

 

"Fat cats don't fight; they sleep in front of the fire. And there are no fat cats in China," he said. "There's not one Chinese girl I've seen with weight on. ... That is a huge advantage for Chinese. Most of our girls, the Aussie girls, are carrying too much weight."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?sectio...&id=8215052

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purplekitty

Those huge women were when anabolic steroids were in use. They cause that muscle development and male appearance.

 

These days there are more sophisticated methods such as EPO and autologous blood transfusions. These increase he oxygen carrying capacity of the blood and don't have obvious external body changes.

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SarDonik
These days there are more sophisticated methods such as EPO and autologous blood transfusions. These increase he oxygen carrying capacity of the blood and don't have obvious external body changes.

 

And as far as I know it's out of your system pretty quickly and virtually undetectable?

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SarDonik

Just the fact that a 16 year old girl was able to keep up with a male Olympic champion over 100m, really beggars belief. If you ignore all the drug cheats over the years, especially the Chinese swimmers, you could probably see it as nothing more than a freak athlete, perfectly built for swimming, maybe. But you can't ignore the facts that her times are out of this world coupled with that she comes from the country most guilty of doping their swimmers including one of her teammates earlier this year. You would be very naive to not even consider drugs are behind her performance. I personally, think that she's clean, but yeah I have no problem with people, especially sports commentators, speculating on whether drugs are behind he performance.

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miriams

OK to speculate, perfectly fine to demand testing, perfectly fine to devise new tests to test new methods of doping, but if she passes all the tests, I still think it's bad sportsmanship to still claim that there is something funky going on just because "we know there is" and because we think she couldn't possibly beat our best athletes, male or female. China has a huge number of people, a huge economy and a state program devoted to sports excellence. They send their athletes around the world to get coached by the best coaches and they have the financial wherewithal to do that now. Should she, and other Chinese athletes, be rigourously tested? Absolutely. Should we still dismiss them as cheats just because we don't like getting beaten? Many athletes from Western countries have been found guilty of doping before, it doesn't mean that we tar all future athletes from those countries with the same brush if we can't find anything on them. I think China should be given the same respect.

 

 

Sorry - but she looks quite like a short, squat Chinese man to me in many pictures.

 

Maybe she's just not very photogenic and I have a gut feeling maybe all Chinese look the same to you anyway... :whistle:

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SarDonik
OK to speculate, perfectly fine to demand testing, perfectly fine to devise new tests to test new methods of doping, but if she passes all the tests, I still think it's bad sportsmanship to still claim that there is something funky going on just because "we know there is" and because we think she couldn't possibly beat our best athletes, male or female.

 

Yes I agree with you. If she passes all tests, then there should be no speculation.

 

Many athletes from Western countries have been found guilty of doping before, it doesn't mean that we tar all future athletes from those countries with the same brush if we can't find anything on them. I think China should be given the same respect.

 

Definitely not. China's record when it comes to doping in swimming is absolutely terrible. Time and again they have been found guilty of doping their swimmers and this is not individual coaches doing it surreptitiously, these are state sanction programs. Yes other countries do have athletes that have taken performance enhancing drugs, but nowhere near the level of the Chinese and certainly nothing that has been sanctioned and funded by the state.

 

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pili-pala

I think its pertinent that she has had Australian coaches as well as chinese ones - that must go in her favour? otherwise is the world implying that the australian coaches who coach her are also in on the doping - then its not a long bow to draw to suggest that our swimmers could also be suspected of doping (and you don't ahve to win by a mile to be a drug cheat).

 

I am definitely in the innocent until testing shows otherwise camp. And I loved that SMH piece linked above that gave a balanced objective view of her acheivement that compared her progress to other swimmers including Stephanie Rice in the last Olympics - Rice had a bigger improvement than Ye did and also broke records.

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SarDonik
I think its pertinent that she has had Australian coaches as well as chinese ones - that must go in her favour? otherwise is the world implying that the australian coaches who coach her are also in on the doping - then its not a long bow to draw to suggest that our swimmers could also be suspected of doping (and you don't ahve to win by a mile to be a drug cheat).

 

I am definitely in the innocent until testing shows otherwise camp. And I loved that SMH piece linked above that gave a balanced objective view of her acheivement that compared her progress to other swimmers including Stephanie Rice in the last Olympics - Rice had a bigger improvement than Ye did and also broke records.

 

You can't compare Rice to Ye Shiwen. Rice comes from a country who has close to an impeccable record when it comes to swimming and drugs. Ye Shiwen comes from a country whose record is terrible. You would be justified in speculating on Ye Shiwens performance you would not be justified in speculating on Rices's performances. If Ye Shiwen came from any other country then sure, compare away. China is a completely different story. Throw in to the equation Ye Shiwens teammate was also banned for doping. In an ideal situation Ye Shiwen would be given the benefit of the doubt, but because of her countries record there is speculation, justifiably so.

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SarDonik
I think its pertinent that she has had Australian coaches as well as chinese ones - that must go in her favour?

 

Somewhat yes. Although they don't necessarily have to be in the loop.

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