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YodaTheWrinkledOne

How to find a reputable breeder

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YodaTheWrinkledOne

At the beginning of this year, we were planning to find a new addition to our family towards the end of the year after we had done a overseas trip for DH's 50th. Obviously the planned o/s trip isn't happening and since DH has started a new job last week, we can't see ourselves taking much time off around his birthday anyway. So we're thinking we would try to get a puppy sooner rather than later. After much debate and a bit of research, we have narrowed it down to a crossbreed, either a labradoodle or a cavoodle. We're not in a super hurry, so happy to wait a while if we find the right breeder etc.

I have put feelers out and had several replies of "Books are full, not taking any more on waiting list until ...(early-mid 2021)". Which is fine, I get that. But I have had two contacts/leads where it just started feeling a bit "off". Both apparently were going to have a litter in the next 6-8 weeks, lo and behold there was a spot on their waiting list so I could have one of those puppies and the prices seemed quite cheap ($1000 + transport) compared to what other people have said they have paid ($2500-$6000!). And they were slow with photos, didn't want to zoom/facetime/whatsapp , so I didn't bother paying a deposit or going any further. Those two were keen and apparently had puppies, but it all seemed a bit dodgy.

My question is how do you find a reputable breeder? Should I just leave it another 6 months and try again later with the breeders that have already turned us down? 

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SummerStar

You won't. 

If you want an oodle crossed there is no such thing as a reputable registered breeder. They are not a breed. You are buying from a byb or puppy farm. And yes you will pay through the nose for one. Bybs are in it for the money. The more demand the more they can charge and there's alot of clueless people willing to throw ridiculous amounts at these mutts. 

Reconsider what you're after there will be a suitable pure bred that suits your needs and you will be able to find a reputable breeder of one. 

 

The way to guarantee its not a scam is to get on waiting lists for those you can physically attend. The scammer are getting smarter with how they work. So don't buy one you need sent. 

Edited by SummerStar
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marple

Be careful there actually is a puppy! we had something similar when looking for a pedigree cat.Some of the photos seemed wrong. They were sending it from Tasmania. We didn't go ahead. 

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SFA

I know a lot of people who own "oodles". They seem like lovely dogs and I understand the attraction, however as SummerStar says, they aren't a registered breed so there is no regulation and "breeders" can charge whatever they want.

I'm sure people do exist who love the dogs and don't treat them badly, the term "backyard breeder" has a lot of negative connotations, but even if they are lovely animal loving people, who treat their dogs amazingly, the reality is the protection both for you and dogs is just not there.

Finally, the guy who first created the labradoodle said the following when asked if he was proud of creating the breed: "No! Not in the slightest", he goes on to say “All these backyard breeders have jumped on the bandwagon, and they're crossing any kind of dog with a poodle. They're selling them for more than a purebred is worth and they're not going into the backgrounds of the parents of the dogs."

ETA: I read the OP again and just wanted to add that the other problem with purchasing a crossbreed for a specific reason, is that you can't be sure you're going to get the positive aspects that you're hoping for.

Edited by SFA

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YodaTheWrinkledOne
1 minute ago, SummerStar said:

You won't. 

If you want an oodle crossed there is no such thing as a reputable registered breeder. They are not a breed. You are buying from a byb or puppy farm. And yes you will pay through the nose for one. Bybs are in it for the money. The more demand the more they can charge and there's alot of clueless people willing to throw ridiculous amounts at these mutts. 

Reconsider what you're after there will be a suitable pure bred that suits your needs and you will be able to find a reputable breeder of one. 

Agree that I don't want to inadvertently buy from a puppy farmer or BYB. But I don't think that means we should only buy a pure breed. We want a dog, one that will suit our family. There are ridiculous amounts of money for both pure breeds and crossbreeds, so I don't think it really matter what dog you go for provided you find someone who is not breeding puppies out of control, has limited litters and wants to place their puppies into suitable homes. I want to know that we will be buying from someone who is a registered breeder (has a valid BIN),  and genuinely cares for their dogs, purebred or not.

We are looking for a dog with low prey drive (we have chickens, so we don't want them attacked or feeling stressed), tolerates being alone (for 6-7 hours for 2-3 days a week), low tendency to escape, low shedding (allergies) and low tendency to bark/howl (although I know all dogs bark) as we live in suburbia. We're not after a large dog either. From the research I have done, it looks like a labradoodle or cavoodle would suit our family.   (FIL got a cavoodle earlier this year, kids fell in love with the dog, so they are leaning towards that.) If you can think of a pure breed that fits those criteria and isn't going to cost me $5K+, let me know. Happy to consider other dogs.

3 minutes ago, SFA said:

ETA: I read the OP again and just wanted to add that the other problem with purchasing a crossbreed for a specific reason, is that you can't be sure you're going to get the positive aspects that you're hoping for.

The same could be said for a pure breed as well. I know someone who bought a pure breed german shepherd and that dog has had so many health problems. It's been awful for the dog and the owner.  And he was bought from a registered breeder.

 

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SummerStar

A reputable registered breeder will never sell a dog on mains, which means fit for breeding, to a byb in order to cross breed. So by buying a cross you are buying from a breeder who is breeding pet quality dogs, not breed quality, who more than likely has done no testing to ensure their health before breeding. 

They have either bought from a dodgy breeder themselves, or they have bought a pet from a reputable breeder and ignored the contract stating it must be desexed and not bred from. So you are buying from a deceitful person from the get go. That's one huge difference between buying pure and buying from a byb. Sure not all registered breeders are reputable, but no cross breeder is. A cross breeder will always charge as much as people will pay, their outlay is very minimal they spend little on the dogs, don't test etc so if they can make $7k off a sale they will do it, and for some reason these oodle messes are so popular that people pay thousands and thousands. I haven't seen an oodle go for less than $5k in a long time, it's why so many people breed them easy money. 

And yes, buying a cross breed does mean buying from a byb. Only byb and puppy farms breed crosses. A byb can be a small time breeder who cares for their dogs, but it doesn't make them good breeders.

If you want a cross breed try a shelter, otherwise there is nothing wrong with poodles, labs and cavaliers themselves without ruining them. And they might shed, they might have hereditary issues known to individual breeds, etc the breeder will promise it will be everything you want to hear but they can't guarantee it. 

Completely up to you if you wish to support them, that's how they stay in business enough people don't really care and still buy. But they are still a byb. So your initial question asking how to find a reputable one, they don't exist. Either support the BYB knowing full well what it is or don't.

Your example of the German shepherd might have been a registered breeder but doesn't sound like it was a good one. Reseach is always needed when narrowing down breeders. 

Those who choose to support the oodle craze are often defensive of their choice and try to justify why their dodgy breeder isn't dodgy... 

Edited by SummerStar
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SFA
21 minutes ago, YodaTheWrinkledOne said:

Agree that I don't want to inadvertently buy from a puppy farmer or BYB. But I don't think that means we should only buy a pure breed. We want a dog, one that will suit our family. There are ridiculous amounts of money for both pure breeds and crossbreeds, so I don't think it really matter what dog you go for provided you find someone who is not breeding puppies out of control, has limited litters and wants to place their puppies into suitable homes. I want to know that we will be buying from someone who is a registered breeder (has a valid BIN),  and genuinely cares for their dogs, purebred or not.

We are looking for a dog with low prey drive (we have chickens, so we don't want them attacked or feeling stressed), tolerates being alone (for 6-7 hours for 2-3 days a week), low tendency to escape, low shedding (allergies) and low tendency to bark/howl (although I know all dogs bark) as we live in suburbia. We're not after a large dog either. From the research I have done, it looks like a labradoodle or cavoodle would suit our family.   (FIL got a cavoodle earlier this year, kids fell in love with the dog, so they are leaning towards that.) If you can think of a pure breed that fits those criteria and isn't going to cost me $5K+, let me know. Happy to consider other dogs.

The same could be said for a pure breed as well. I know someone who bought a pure breed german shepherd and that dog has had so many health problems. It's been awful for the dog and the owner.  And he was bought from a registered breeder.

 

I can hear that you've looked into this kind of dog, and feel it is the right one for your family. However, as SummerStar points out, you really can't both have a registered breeder AND get an oodle. The two things are mutually exclusive. 

And yes, you're correct that sometimes you get a dog with health problems even when you buy a purebred, however the likelihood of that happening with a crossbreed is far higher given there is unlikely to be knowledge of genetic history.

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nom_de_plume

Most purebreds from an AKNC registered breeder with papers will be less than $5k unless you want something extremely rare or a show dog. The cost will probably go up in the coming year or so due to demand as many breeders are not currently breeding due to Covid. The flipside is there will probably be an oversupply of rescue dogs available when life returns to somewhat normal and people who have acquired a dog during these times decide they can no longer manage them.

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AtotheZ

I’m still on an email list for a ‘Breeder’ of Cavoodles (ended up with a beautiful English Cocker Spaniel), and will not ever purchase an oodle, so will need to unsubscribe from their email list. 

Apart from being a BYB which I wasn’t aware of when we were first looking, they were charging $4k per dog. This was 3 years ago. Their prices are now $9.5k.  

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amdirel
48 minutes ago, YodaTheWrinkledOne said:

low shedding (allergies)

Cavaliers shed. Labradors shed, a lot. You will be equally as likely to get a shedder than a non-shedder when you get a cross-breed. It's like a lucky dip!

Why not look at a poodle?

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22Fruitmincepies

Poodles are the best oodles! I think the main reason oodles are so popular is that poodles somehow got a really bad reputation. So you can have a poodle without having a poodle kind of thing. 

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FeralGiggelosaurus
15 minutes ago, nom_de_plume said:

Most purebreds from an AKNC registered breeder with papers will be less than $5k unless you want something extremely rare or a show dog. The cost will probably go up in the coming year or so due to demand as many breeders are not currently breeding due to Covid. The flipside is there will probably be an oversupply of rescue dogs available when life returns to somewhat normal and people who have acquired a dog during these times decide they can no longer manage them.

I would say that the price for a purebred for under $5k is hugely dependant on the breed. For example a Rottie would set you back anywhere between $7-9K, but smaller breds maybe not.

 

I will put my hand up as someone who has purchased a cross from what is considered a BYB, I found them a while ago and had been on their FB page and their waitlist for over 18months. Full health check of both parents etc.

Im not getting into what is right and what is wrong, but, their are BYB and there are BYB. Same as there are Registered Breeders and Registered Breeders. 

Take your time, do you research, see if you can see other litters, sibling etc, meet the "family" before you pick up, do you get to pick at a veiwing etc. 

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YodaTheWrinkledOne
13 minutes ago, 22Fruitmincepies said:

Poodles are the best oodles! I think the main reason oodles are so popular is that poodles somehow got a really bad reputation. So you can have a poodle without having a poodle kind of thing. 

My biggest concern is that I heard that poodles don't deal well with being left alone. With work and school, there will be 2 (maybe 3) days a week where no one will be home for 6-7 hours. We can't change that unfortunately. We don't want to pick a dog knowing that they don't cope well alone, that wouldn't be fair on the dog. 

(I grew up with miniature dachshund and beagle, no experience with poodles. DH grew up with labs only.)

Edited by YodaTheWrinkledOne

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22Fruitmincepies
Just now, YodaTheWrinkledOne said:

My biggest concern is that I heard that poodles don't deal well with being left alone. With work and school, there will be 2 (maybe 3) days a week where no one will be home for 6-7 hours. We can't change that unfortunately. But we don't want to pick a dog knowing that they don't cope well alone, that wouldn't be fair on the dog. 

(I grew up with miniature dachshund and beagle, no experience with poodles. DH grew up with labs only.)

I seem to recall fiveaus had some good advice about making sure dogs are ok with being left alone for the day. It would be definitely worthwhile checking out anyway. 

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SummerStar
11 minutes ago, FeralGiggelosaurus said:

Im not getting into what is right and what is wrong, but, their are BYB and there are BYB. Same as there are Registered Breeders and Registered Breeders. 

True, some byb at least take care of the dogs better than others but end of the day they are still breeding pet quality dogs, not breed quality, even if they do the tests etc. A reputable breeder would never sell a dog on mains fit for breeding to a byb. It just doesn't happen. So yes there are some kinder to their dogs than others and very few do health test to some degree but they are still breeding pet quality dogs and ignoring desexing contracts etc making them deceitful from the get go IMO. 

And yes not all registered breeders are good but for someone genuinely looking for a reputable registered breeder then they'd be crossing cross breeders off from the start given they don't exist. 

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Winter frost

Op. There is a hatred of cross breeds on eb that does not mean you can’t get one. That said anyone advertising an oodle at present for $2k is a scam.

If you are keen on a oodle I recommend you join a Facebook group for your state (ie Victoria has a site called Melbourne cavoodles ). have a read. It is like a little cult of cavoodle loving people that treat their dogs like kings and queens. They also often have conversations about good breeders to buy from.

There is also a Facebook scam site but they can only give you hints to look at who is a scam, not so much who is good to buy from. There is a middle ground ( that is not a scam but maybe not the best to buy off and that is hard to work out).

 

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TheGreenSheep

We went with a *gasp* BYB for our cavoodle puppy, who is a source of pleasure and complete joy. My allergies were a huge part of the decision, suffering through 11 years of hayfever and hives from our cat was torture, but I loved him anyway. 

The ladies details were shared by a friend. I reviewed her FB page. The entire ten years of posts. Killed a few hours let me tell you. I messaged the lady, eventually we spoke on the phone. We discussed the ‘how do I know you won’t rip me off’ conundrum. She basically told me I wouldn’t know for sure with anyone over the internet, check out my FB page and webpages. Her dogs are DNA and health checked and she only breeds them a few times before she retires them. Puppy comes health checked, chipped, wormed, 1st vax. She also gave me a pack of the pups food, a new blanket and a pack of toys which I though was really kind. Also something that we discussed was that she also will not sell to just anyone.

I’ll be honest that I think the $1000 + travel sounds too cheap to be true. Everyone I’ve spoken too has been shocked by the demand for dogs and cats through COVID. We had already started the groundwork, so it became a coincidence that our pup was born during COVID. 

I am extremely curious to see the dump rates post COVID constraints. For us acquiring a puppy was taken with the seriousness of having kids, a lifelong commitment, which is why we had to tick as many boxes as possible for us and our lifestyle and the fit of the dog.

Edited by TheGreenSheep
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nom_de_plume
24 minutes ago, FeralGiggelosaurus said:

I would say that the price for a purebred for under $5k is hugely dependant on the breed. For example a Rottie would set you back anywhere between $7-9K, but smaller breds maybe not.

Fair point. The breeders I know (family members) breed smaller dogs - Daschunds, Beagles and Cocker Spaniels.

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SummerStar

Of course it doesn't mean they can't get one. Anyone is free to get what they want but many people genuinely don't know they're supporting a byb, so some people are grateful for the info. Others don't care which is what bybs rely on, and that's OK too if they're OK with it. But nothing wrong with knowing the situation up front. And the title of the thread was how to find a reputable breeder when the answer is there isn't one for cross breeds.

 

But again doesn't mean they can't buy one, they just have to accept they're supporting a byb or puppy farm in order to get one at the end of the day. Yes some bybs health test but they still had to buy pet quality dogs to start out and health testing doesn't guarantee it won't shed, will be a certain size etc, that is unpredictable. 

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Treasure Island
Quote

Agree that I don't want to inadvertently buy from a puppy farmer or BYB. But I don't think that means we should only buy a pure breed. We want a dog, one that will suit our family. There are ridiculous amounts of money for both pure breeds and crossbreeds, so I don't think it really matter what dog you go for provided you find someone who is not breeding puppies out of control, has limited litters and wants to place their puppies into suitable homes. I want to know that we will be buying from someone who is a registered breeder (has a valid BIN),  and genuinely cares for their dogs, purebred or not.

I recommend you look into rescues in this case. It will give you what you are looking for. You can get puppies or full grown dogs as rescues.

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PuddingPlease

This is a bit off-topic but  have never really understood the argument that it is more ethical to purchase pure-bred dogs.

Doesn't this just encourage the breeding of animals within a progressively smaller and smaller gene pool and lead ultimately to animals that are dangerously in-bred? How does the gene pool expand if diluting it with another breed is out of the question? 

 

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YodaTheWrinkledOne
22 minutes ago, 22Fruitmincepies said:

I seem to recall fiveaus had some good advice about making sure dogs are ok with being left alone for the day. It would be definitely worthwhile checking out anyway. 

will hunt this out, thanks

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FeralGiggelosaurus

Question....In Vic all breeders BYB or otherwise need to be registered and all pups need to be microchiped with breeders details etc or they face huge fines. Is this not the case in all states?

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YodaTheWrinkledOne
20 minutes ago, Winter frost said:

Op. There is a hatred of cross breeds on eb that does not mean you can’t get one. That said anyone advertising an oodle at present for $2k is a scam.

Um, yes, I was getting that vibe ...

4 minutes ago, PuddingPlease said:

This is a bit off-topic but  have never really understood the argument that it is more ethical to purchase pure-bred dogs.

Doesn't this just encourage the breeding of animals within a progressively smaller and smaller gene pool and lead ultimately to animals that are dangerously in-bred? How does the gene pool expand if diluting it with another breed is out of the question? 

 

This is what I have wondered as well. But I grew up with mutts that were wonderful, so what would I know. (as a kid, I didn't know the difference. They were simply our dogs and part of the family)

Edited by YodaTheWrinkledOne

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Winter frost
1 minute ago, FeralGiggelosaurus said:

Question....In Vic all breeders BYB or otherwise need to be registered and all pups need to be microchiped with breeders details etc or they face huge fines. Is this not the case in all states?

No alas not. 

however that is also not enough for those that think only pure breeds are acceptable as they can’t be a registered breeder with the relevant breed association

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