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mum2jp

4 year old behaviour *update*

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CrankyM
Posted (edited)

 

 

agreed. the poster you quoted seems to be talking with an authority they just dont have!

 

I also agree crombek. We’ve been seen psychologists on and off for years. Before kids even got diagnosed. Nothing mention by that poster comes close to what a psych actually does.

 

And also there is absolutely nothing wrong with “labels”. Maybe if people stopped arguing that they didn’t want their children labeled as if it was wrong, there would be less stigma about people who are different, who have challenges or around people getting the support they need. You don’t have to figure it out by yourself, there is no problem with getting professional help. And if you child does “get a label” then think of it as a framework of thinking. It’s a stepping stone to supporting and understanding the individual. Because really, do you really think people won’t label others anyway? Reframe your thinking and maybe you’ll find that you are more accepting of people on different levels.

 

Sorry sidetracked the argument but I’m so sick to death of people being afraid of getting help because their child might be “labeled”. My kids have “labels” if official diagnoses. They also of “labels” of being awesome, kind, inquisitive, stubborn, quirky, a good friend, helpful, sweet, justice seeker, fair, hard worker, determined, sensitive. As well as those ones like autistic, sensory seeker, high anxiety driven behaviours, adhd, forgetful. Having one doesn’t cross out another.

Edited by CrankyM
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tarrie cat

Not every kid wakes up with the sun so an early bedtime isn't going solve the problem.

 

My kid's normal wake up time is between 7:30 - 8:30. If we tried putting her to bed at 6:30 it would be absolute hell (apart from the fact that in non-corona time, she would've only just gotten home from childcare). I'm currently off work so her waking up at 8:30 isn't an issue. We'll work on moving it when we need to.

 

Every family has a different routine, every family is different. An early bedtime isn't an instant solution and I get so sick of people trotting it out constantly. Sure, if the kid is a wake-up-with-the-sun kid an early bedtime is totally appropriate. But it's not the case of every kid.

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tinselfoil hat

I haven’t read the whole thread so I apologise if this analogy has been mentioned. At this age, psychological help is to do with the parents, with strategies which can be implemented at home because that’s when most of the learning takes place. That doesn’t mean your parenting is the problem. It’s like if you have a headache, so you have panadol. Was the problem causing your headache that you didn’t have panadol?

 

Don’t be embarrassed. I’ve seen a psych with DD at age 3. It can help immensely.

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Lost_In_Australia

This is the opening sentence of this discussion :

 

"Any advice welcome as I am at my wits end and running out of idea's."

 

The OP came here asking for advice and ideas, I gave her some strategies on how to deal with the bedtime for at least 7 days, having had myself a very challenging child. The advice I gave was to give her attention to something else, such as cleaning the fridge, filing bank statements, sorting pantry, ... so that when she comes out of her room, she would find the parent occupied , whatever she throws disappears and other suggestions including for screens, talking to her her at lunch time and others stuff.

 

​I didn't say she should not seek the help of a psychologist, only that I didn't think there were issues as the child was fine at school and even at the doctor's. Which is actually a good news, meaning that there is nothing major.

 

You can receive parenting advice on a parenting forum or seek for it at a psychologist as other posters have pointed out. I have only put a warning because I have seen mixed results in my friends. For one it helped, for another it made things worse.

 

Some children are easy, some are not. Some are difficult because they have ASD, others are difficult because they have a difficult personality.

 

Look for help wherever you find it.

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Feral-as-Meggs

OP it’s ok to see a psychologist even if it is all down to your DD having a strong will, or a bolshie personality or whatever.

 

Look how many people have marriage or pre-marriage counselling, or management coaching, or high performance sports psychology or whatever. It’s not because they have a diagnosis - its to learn better ways of communicating and self-regulation.

 

FWIW in the meantime Id have a look at the mornings - lots of early, strong natural light. That’s what actually regulates bedtime sleepiness.

 

Personally I can’t stand fighting at bedtime and I’d just give in and sit/lie down with her, in a dark room (no nightlight or music). You can have a secret podcast or something on headphones. Sort out bedtime when you have a better handle/understanding of daytime behaviour.

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mum2jp
Posted (edited)

Yes I agree with the dislike of bedtime battles. I am more than willing to lay with her and have always done this. It's just getting her into bed to lay with me that is the issue.

 

I am hesitant to attempt changes such as trying to sleep on her own or removing night light and bedtime music at this stage as I feel it would make her worse. She is very routine driven so the process she goes through each night (kissing her brother, turning the hall light off, tuning her cd player on and her night light on) are a big part of her routine. Little things set bedtime refusal off for example someone else switching the light before she does it, or that her pillow case smells (she doesn't like it freshly washed). Although most of the time there isn't anything I can pinpoint.

 

I had a phone meeting with her speech therapist yesterday and went over her current goals. Mainly she would like to get DD to engage more verbally as she hasn't been able to get a full assessment of her general language as DD really doesn't give much. She repeats the words when asks and answers her questions in short sentences but is reluctant to actually engage in conversation. We are going to try video conferencing next fornight of her just watching DD and I play a game (no pressure for her to speak directly to speech therapist) and hopefully she will be able to get some more language observations from this. She agreed that filling out the commmunity health checklist is a good idea and we will go from there.

Edited by mum2jp

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José

Yes I agree with the dislike of bedtime battles. I am more than willing to lay with her and have always done this. It's just getting her into bed to lay with me that is the issue.

 

I am hesitant to attempt changes such as trying to sleep on her own or removing night light and bedtime music at this stage as I feel it would make her worse. She is very routine driven so the process she goes through each night (kissing her brother, turning the hall light off, tuning her cd player on and her night light on) are a big part of her routine. Little things set bedtime refusal off for example someone else switching the light before she does it, or that her pillow case smells (she doesn't like it freshly washed). Although most of the time there isn't anything I can pinpoint.

 

I had a phone meeting with her speech therapist yesterday and went over her current goals. Mainly she would like to get DD to engage more verbally as she hasn't been able to get a full assessment of her general language as DD really doesn't give much. She repeats the words when asks and answers her questions in short sentences but is reluctant to actually engage in conversation. We are going to try video conferencing next fornight of her just watching DD and I play a game (no pressure for her to speak directly to speech therapist) and hopefully she will be able to get some more language observations from this. She agreed that filling out the commmunity health checklist is a good idea and we will go from there.

 

This post screams possible ASD to me.

I hope you can find some great supports e.g. psychologist and developemental paed.

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mum2jp

 

 

This post screams possible ASD to me.

I hope you can find some great supports e.g. psychologist and developemental paed.

 

I have considered this is the past. She has a cousin who has ASD. His needs are very obvious whereas in comparison DD can cope in many setting. I guess because in certain settings with familar people and kids she is fine socially I didn't think she fit the criteria.

 

Her shyness is usually in new settings, unfamilar adults and children to some extent and in situations where she knows something is expected of her (like speech) or in situations where she is not expecting the communication for example if we run into people at the shops or park even kids she knows she goes all funny and won't talk to them. I also think she is very aware of the sounds that are mispronounced and is sometimes reluctant to try when one on one with the speech therapist.

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CrankyM

I have considered this is the past. She has a cousin who has ASD. His needs are very obvious whereas in comparison DD can cope in many setting. I guess because in certain settings with familar people and kids she is fine socially I didn't think she fit the criteria.

 

Her shyness is usually in new settings, unfamilar adults and children to some extent and in situations where she knows something is expected of her (like speech) or in situations where she is not expecting the communication for example if we run into people at the shops or park even kids she knows she goes all funny and won't talk to them. I also think she is very aware of the sounds that are mispronounced and is sometimes reluctant to try when one on one with the speech therapist.

 

Um your post also screamed ASD flags at me too. It's a myth that ASD means you can't be social. The impact in social/communications doesn't mean they don't want to interact or be social it means they don't have an understanding of the interaction i.e. communication required to be social. So, for example, back and forth conversations, reading unspoken social behaviors, such as waving (broad example). My older boy loved being around people, loved interacting with others, but doesn't/didn't understand the how of it. He would copy other children and how they behaved socially because he didn't understand what was expected. And then use what he has observed as a script for similar situations, but if it didn't follow the script he would retreat or try something different. Routines and structure, tells you how to behave and what social expectations are required, and provide a learned approach to what to do. Some social communication deficits are obvious, others are not. I would seriously think about seeing a developmental pead and/or good child psychologist.

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Prancer is coming
Posted (edited)
1588301562[/url]' post='18623395']

Yes I agree with the dislike of bedtime battles. I am more than willing to lay with her and have always done this. It's just getting her into bed to lay with me that is the issue.

 

I so hear you on this. I would happily lay down with my kid and be there, it did not stop her from screaming. I even tired co sleeping in desperation, did not stop her resisting bedtime and sleeping. Could lead her back to bed with no talking or reaction for hours, did not deter her or she would up the anti by turning lights on and off, going outside, walking siblings. Anyone that offers bedtime solutions and implies it will work after a certain period of time has not experienced a challenging child (and we are in the challenging behaviour area).

 

Interestingly, when I first came to EB I would read this section and sometimes did not think some of the posts in it were really thst challenging. I was in denial about what I was dealing with, and being my first child I had no idea what was normal! My third recently saw a paed and I only spoke about his sleep issues as describing his general behaviour. I was amazed to come out with a script for melatonin without even asking for help with sleep. But my gosh, a few drops of this wonderful stuff and my kid goes to sleep when put to bed. I can’t believe it, no more stuffing around for hours.

Edited by Prancer is coming
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mum2jp
Posted (edited)

 

 

Um your post also screamed ASD flags at me too. It's a myth that ASD means you can't be social. The impact in social/communications doesn't mean they don't want to interact or be social it means they don't have an understanding of the interaction i.e. communication required to be social. So, for example, back and forth conversations, reading unspoken social behaviors, such as waving (broad example). My older boy loved being around people, loved interacting with others, but doesn't/didn't understand the how of it. He would copy other children and how they behaved socially because he didn't understand what was expected. And then use what he has observed as a script for similar situations, but if it didn't follow the script he would retreat or try something different. Routines and structure, tells you how to behave and what social expectations are required, and provide a learned approach to what to do. Some social communication deficits are obvious, others are not. I would seriously think about seeing a developmental pead and/or good child psychologist.

 

I will definitely consider these steps. I am starting with the checklist through community health and hopefully some more info from her speech therapist if she can observe some conversations.

 

With communication difficulties though it isn't always, it's like she is selective with who and where she will engage. That's why I have mostly put it down to shyness. At home and with familar people in most settings she is social, can have indepth conversation. Her receptive language is great and she speaks in sentences and can carry a typical conversation. Obviously she has the pronunciation issues she is having speech for but for the most part her language is good.

 

She just takes a very long time to be comfortable with people and to actually talk to them. She has always been this way and we have never forced the communication with people she is not comfortable with. DH comes from a loud, kissing check sort of family and even they have learnt now not to overwhelm her with that sort of greeting. It took me saying she will say hello when she is ready and them realising I won't force my toddler to hug and kiss them but they got the message.

 

We have had some success with getting to bed a little earlier around 730. Still a bad night in there, a couple of ok nights. Still taking ages to get to sleep but at least it means she is actually asleep earlier if we start the process a bit earlier.

Edited by mum2jp

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FuzzyChocolateToes
Posted (edited)

I have a child with ADHD. He has issues with food (extreme picky eating). He also had no currency at that age and could not modify his behaviour in the face of serious consequences. I did a number of parenting courses. I also read Raising Your Spirited Child. It described him perfectly, when in fact he has ADHD. I didn't find the book helpful at all.

 

Re: bedtime, 8pm is normal at our house as they get up around 7am. If she can't get to sleep for up to 2 hours with you there for comfort and a consistent bedtime routine , then I think you have a problem that is too big for you to fix by yourself. Your GP can point you in the right direction.

Edited by FuzzyChocolateToes
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José

I will definitely consider these steps. I am starting with the checklist through community health and hopefully some more info from her speech therapist if she can observe some conversations.

 

With communication difficulties though it isn't always, it's like she is selective with who and where she will engage. That's why I have mostly put it down to shyness. At home and with familar people in most settings she is social, can have indepth conversation. Her receptive language is great and she speaks in sentences and can carry a typical conversation. Obviously she has the pronunciation issues she is having speech for but for the most part her language is good.

 

She just takes a very long time to be comfortable with people and to actually talk to them. She has always been this way and we have never forced the communication with people she is not comfortable with. DH comes from a loud, kissing check sort of family and even they have learnt now not to overwhelm her with that sort of greeting. It took me saying she will say hello when she is ready and them realising I won't force my toddler to hug and kiss them but they got the message.

 

 

The more you post the more i think ASD is worth checking out.

People with ASD can be highly intelligent. They can have great vocab, be highly engaging etc etc.

It seems like you might have a narrow view of what ASD can look like. And that's completely normal when you haven't encountered it much.

of course no one on here can make a diagnosis. And we haven't even met your little one so it's completely possible ASD is not what's going on here.

I'd encourage you not to rule it out though.

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PocketIcikleflakes

It is also sounding more and more like autism to me as well.

 

With regard to language it's relatively common for kids (especially autistic kids and adults if you choose to look into this) to find it much more difficult to communicate using speech when stressed or when tired. It may be worth discussing with the speech therapist other options for helping your DD communicate what she wants/needs at bedtime and help you understand what she wants. When my DD of the same age is over tired she needs me to guess what she wants because she can't always find the words to tell me or even work out in her own head what it is she needs. Just asking her results in a tantrum because she can't tell me.

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mum2jp

*update*

 

So after a phone interview with community health re results of the ages and stages questionnaire we are being referred to the counselling team (mostly to work with us through a parenting program called tuning into kids).

 

DD scored well on most development area's, a bit low in language but we are already having speech. On the social emotional one though (which is where our main concerns are) she scored not within norms so this is what they are recommending. I did ask about whether her score is alot below age average and if I should seek further diagnose. She was a bit vague about this and said that some kids just need different strategies that help them to regulate themsleves and deal with emotions and that's what the other team would work through.

 

I am sort of feeling relieved that it has been recognised that maybe she does need some intervention but on the other hand feel a bit self conscious that they think it's all just a parenting problem. She asked about how many other children I have ect.

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Silverstreak

Good to read your update, OP!

 

I think you'll probably get some good strategies from the parenting program. That said, I still recommend getting a referral to a developmental paed, to rule anything out.

 

We originally went through community health with DS and found them not willing to commit e.g. they raised some "flags", but didn't want to say whether or not DS required an ASD assessment. We also saw a general paed, who took a "let's wait and see how he is in a year" approach.

 

in the end, we saw a developmental paed who was 80% sure after one appointment with DS and his diagnosis was confirmed by a multidisciplinary assessment by himself, a speech therapist and a psychologist.

 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, do the parenting program, but consider getting a second opinion. Not all kids with ASD present the same, or behave the way we expect kids with ASD should. If I had listened to the general paed, we would have lost another year or two.

 

As it was, we were able to commence specific therapies and I was armed with knowledge that I could then pass onto school.

 

Unfortunately, there are those who will make snap judgments about your parenting and how you should try this and that, as it worked for X kid, but what they say may not be applicable either to yourself or your kid, as your kid may process information differently.

 

Good luck and all the best xo

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José
Posted (edited)

Tuning into kids is a lovely program. Based on the emotion coaching work of Gottman.

 

I think do it, but as a pp said continue with further investigations.

I think maybe you're expecting too much of your child and family health person. They've helped you identify your child is experiencing difficulties That are not typical.

Now it's up to you.

go to GP. Get referrals.

 

If there is something more going on the tuning into kids program will help but its unlikely to be enough.

Edited by José
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born.a.girl

OP remember none of us are born parents - it would be a rare one of us who haven't turned to help of some sort.

 

It must be especially difficult when a child is so different from your others.

 

My father used to have a saying: before I had children I had six theories about raising them. Now I have six children and no theories.

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