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lazycritter

Cassie Jaye on the Project

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purplekitty

You are too kind to her.

 

As someone who was around when she started her career her evolution into a sh*tty RWNJ is a mystery to me.

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William Smith

I couldn't help coming back to reply to this post...

 

From the webpage you posted

"There were only minor differences between men and women for literacy and PSTRE.Overall, 44% (3.7 million) of men and 45% (3.7 million) of women had literacy skills at Level 2 or below. Fifty four per cent (4.5 million) of men and 53% (4.4 million) of women were assessed at Level 3 or above."

"In contrast, for numeracy there was a marked difference by sex. Approximately 49% (4.1 million) of men had skills at Level 2 or below, and 49% (4.1 million) at Level 3 or above, compared to 59% (4.9 million) of women at Level 2 or below and 38% (3.2 million) at Level 3 or above."

 

Men and women track similarly for literacy (Graph - proportion at literacy Level 3 or above, By sex and age group—2011–12) but men have much better numeracy (Graph - proportion at Numeracy Level 3 or above, By sex and age group—2011–12).

 

The differences between men and women in literacy across all ages is minor because the advantage of men who went through the education system decades ago is counterbalanced by the disadvantage of men who went through the education system more recently.

 

I agree about the disadvantaged position of women when it comes to numeracy, particularly in relation to older women.

 

I would not say that women are leagues ahead of men on literacy, not based on the data you have shared. But I would say that men are ahead of women when it comes to numeracy.

 

ETA: the media release about these results was captioned "Young women lag behind young men on numeracy skills, but perform well on literacy" with the first two sentences reading as "Young women have lower numeracy skills than young men, according to figures released today by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS). However, ABS Director Myles Burleigh said that when it comes to literacy skills, young women were doing just as well as young men."

 

Having looked at the data a little more, I think it's quite reasonably to downplay the differences in literacy between young men and women that are suggested by this survey. The survey suggests, for example, that about 14% of males aged 15-24 are at the lowest reported level on the literacy scale (Level 1 or below), while the equivalent figure for females is about 9%. This is a 'best guess' as to what these percentages might be, based on the survey. It's true, though, that the difference between these percentages might not be significant in a statistical sense, i.e., at the conventional 95% confidence level (while acknowledging that choosing a 95% confidence level is an arbitrary, albeit conventional, choice).

 

I don't think these figures misrepresent differences in literacy between young men and women, although there may be issues with statistical significance because of sample size issues. But to demonstrate this it's necessary to bring in other data. While the survey discussed above included about 700 people aged 15-19, the Australian component of the 2015 Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA 2015) surveyed about 15,000 15-year-old students. A report on the Australian results from PISA 2015 can be downloaded from here:

 

http://research.acer.edu.au/ozpisa/22/

 

For key findings see:

 

https://www.acer.org/ozpisa/key-findings

 

In the report, the PISA 2015 results for reading literacy by sex for 15-year-old students are described in the following way (page xxix, see also pages 141-3):

 

'> In Australia, females scored 519 points on average, which was significantly higher than the average score of 487 points for males. This difference represents about one year of schooling.

 

> 13% of Australian females and 9% of Australian males were high performers in reading literacy [Level 5 and above].

 

> 13% of Australian females and 23% of Australian males were low performers in reading literacy [Level 1 and below].

 

> 67% of Australian females and 55% of Australian males achieved the National Proficient Standard in reading literacy.'

 

In relation to scientific and mathematical literacy, no significant gender differences were found in Australia (pages xxviii-xxix).

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kadoodle

I can't say what you've given me here is all that helpful, tbh. Leaving sample size, demographic, international scaling, and lack of shown data aside: There isn't a gender breakdown across SES or NESB, there's no controlling for IIs and there's a woeful lack of attention given to ethnicity and religion, and the role this plays in educational opportunities and outcomes.

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nasty snaugh

Cassie Jaye was meant to discuss male privilege on a Hack TV show tonight, but has pulled out

 

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/red-pill-director-cassie-jaye-pulls-out-of-hack-live/8635696

 

There are others "on her team", so to speak, as part of the show.

 

I wonder why she agreed in the first place, given she's been pretty outspoken about her opinion of our media

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Nobody Cool

Cassie Jaye was meant to discuss male privilege on a Hack TV show tonight, but has pulled out

 

http://www.abc.net.a...ck-live/8635696

 

There are others "on her team", so to speak, as part of the show.

 

I wonder why she agreed in the first place, given she's been pretty outspoken about her opinion of our media

 

I'd pull out too if I was going to be utterly shredded by Clementine Ford.

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lazycritter

 

 

I'd pull out too if I was going to be utterly shredded by Clementine Ford.

 

Especially if she thought the project was harsh.

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Hayleymumof3

I'd pull out too if I was going to be utterly shredded by Clementine Ford.

 

Clementine would have made mince meat out of her.

 

And deservedly so.

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Hayleymumof3

I don't know about other people, but I have other things to do. The thread also became less interesting when people started claiming that people in the men's rights movement are 'fighting for little girls to be cut', the Red Pill film doesn't 'explore men's issues at all', Cassie Jaye herself is 'a rape apologist', someone's 6-year-old son is a misogynist, etc.

 

You are to busy to talk about an 11 year old getting rape threats from boys in her school?

 

Nice to know.

 

I've notice you didn't even once try to touch the subject I brought up. You are more concerned about boys academic achievements "suffering".

 

I am more concerned about not only keeping my daughter safe at school but everyone else's child as well.

 

It's not boys being sent home because their clothing is to distracting.

It's not boys being denied entry to their proms/formals because their clothing is to "revealing"

It wasn't a male student who missed a final exam because the school deemed their clothing inappropriate.

 

All this happens to girls.

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katpaws

"I'd pull out too if I was going to be utterly shredded by Clementine Ford"

 

Nothing like that happened on the Hack show, although it is obvious Clem and someone called Daisy don't get along well and their discussion of this took away dialogue on the actual topic.

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Nobody Cool

"I'd pull out too if I was going to be utterly shredded by Clementine Ford"

 

Nothing like that happened on the Hack show, although it is obvious Clem and someone called Daisy don't get along well and their discussion of this took away dialogue on the actual topic.

 

 

 

Yeah the whole thing was a bit of a shambolic mess, actually. Very disappointing and poorly moderated. And not really on topic a great deal of the time. The participants didn't really get enough time to flesh out their ideas or offer much in the way of critique. They were constantly derailing each other and the topic kept jumping around. A shame, because the subject matter deserved better.

 

The two academics had the most value to contribute, IMO, and I wish we heard more from them. And I also wish that Zevo had more time to talk about what it was like to have had experienced life as both a male and a female, and what male privilege looks like in practice.

Edited by Nobody Cool

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Hollycoddle

 

 

Yeah the whole thing was a bit of a shambolic mess, actually. Very disappointing and poorly moderated. And not really on topic a great deal of the time. The participants didn't really get enough time to flesh out their ideas or offer much in the way of critique. They were constantly derailing each other and the topic kept jumping around. A shame, because the subject matter deserved better.

 

 

Agreed. Nor did it shed any light on why some apparently very naive young women (or honey badgers of any shape or form) feel the need to renounce feminism in order to be able to get behind men's issues? It's a very simplistic way of looking at things to think that we can't pay attention to both. Anti-feminists and feminism apostates? The labels themselves feel like a slap in the face.

 

The argument also came up that we see so much on EB threads, with Daisy and particularly Loren failing to recognise the systemic factors contributing to the fact that it's mostly women who end up sacrificing careers and staying home to do the bulk of caring for children and home duties. They see it as an individual or family 'choice' whereas if they examined the bigger picture in a critical way they would see that there are systemic factors at play which mean that the most economical choice for families is mostly going to involve the woman staying home. And by the same token, most families with SAH Dads generally involve a situation where the woman earns more.

Edited by Mollycoddle
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AsperHacker

I think it's pretty well known that Tom Tilley isn't the greatest moderator. It never had much potential to be a decent "debate". So I think expectations were a bit high for those disappointed. I'd like to see Jennyou Brockie moderate (would never happen).

 

That said, for the first time I saw someone really question and push for an answer to why Cassie Jaye didn't challenge the views of the mras. And people talking about this without going a little nuts. Although it was derailing, I would have liked to have seen Clem and Daisy hash it out on live television. They seemed more able to constrain their frustrations with each other and no head to head ever has time to play out on a one hour show. Daisy was on the back foot a couple of times and doesn't seem as twit like as Loren or Cassie, so I'm interested in where it would have gone. Naive, maybe?

 

The Hack isn't in the league of someone like Roxane Gay... i dont think we can expect it to be.

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Nobody Cool

The Hack isn't in the league of someone like Roxane Gay... i dont think we can expect it to be.

 

This is true. I think maybe the panel suffered from too many participants as well. The show could well have done without one of the female anti-feminists, the lady who was "privilege aware" (WTF) and that random private school dude.

 

The balance would have been better that way I think, with more opportunity for everyone to speak: one feminist, one anti-feminist, one MRA guy, one indigenous man and one trans person.

Edited by Nobody Cool

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AsperHacker

 

 

This is true. I think maybe the panel suffered from too many participants as well. The show could well have done without one of the female anti-feminists, the lady who was "privilege aware" (WTF) and that random private school dude.

 

The balance would have been better that way I think, with more opportunity for everyone to speak: one feminist, one anti-feminist, one MRA guy, one indigenous man and one trans person.

 

I agree, the panel was overloaded. The "privilege aware" woman didn't have much to offer but I was glad to see Loren there as a representative of "male privilege IS bs". Ridiculously naive. And a bit reminiscent of Cassie!

 

Eta the one MRA was given the opportunity to speak! Was he just camera shocked or just tripping over his tongue?!?

Edited by AsperHacker

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Nobody Cool

I agree, the panel was overloaded. The "privilege aware" woman didn't have much to offer but I was glad to see Loren there as a representative of "male privilege IS bs". Ridiculously naive. And a bit reminiscent of Cassie!

 

Eta the one MRA was given the opportunity to speak! Was he just camera shocked or just tripping over his tongue?!?

 

Not too sure, but I thought it was unfair (and somewhat irrelevant) for the mod to grill him at such length about his refusal to use his real name. Waste of time that could have been better spent exploring his viewpoint IMO.

 

What frustrates me about the MRA movement is that it legitimately has a lot of shared ground with feminism, and men who are genuinely interested in those issues have much to gain from becoming allies with the feminist movement. I wish they could look beyond all the red-pill propaganda to see that.

 

Teasing the genuine guys out from the misognynists who just want a stick to beat women with is the tricky part. I mean, from the footage they showed this guy Adrian did host get togethers for men (and women) to talk about issues that impact on men. It was a shame that we didn't get to hear more from him because he did seem like he genuinely wanted to address those issues.

 

Was he a "good" MRA, or one of the bad seeds? Impossible to tell from the panel discussion. Another wasted opportunity.

Edited by Nobody Cool

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schwatzen

I watched the HackLive episode last night. Clementine was brilliantly civil. Lucky for the rest of the guests because none of the "there's no such thing as male privilege! Poor men" guests could hold a candle to her intellect. They're be effortlessly demolished. Even Michael Flood demolished them.

 

But the biggest takeaway from that episode IMO was Nevo Zisin. Nevo effortlessly wiped the floor with these idiots.

 

That "Adrian" guy? (Interesting that he took on the moniker of a notorious serial rapist and murderer) well we can all see why he's drawn to the MRA 'movement'. He's a friendless fringe-dwelling loser. I actually feel bad that the only way he can feel good about himself is by mowing over women. Good luck to him on that! ...

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Hollycoddle
Clementine was brilliantly civil.

 

Gotta love her dropping of the c-bomb though lol!

Edited by Mollycoddle
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Nobody Cool

I watched the HackLive episode last night. Clementine was brilliantly civil. Lucky for the rest of the guests because none of the "there's no such thing as male privilege! Poor men" guests could hold a candle to her intellect. They're be effortlessly demolished. Even Michael Flood demolished them.

 

But the biggest takeaway from that episode IMO was Nevo Zisin. Nevo effortlessly wiped the floor with these idiots.

 

That "Adrian" guy? (Interesting that he took on the moniker of a notorious serial rapist and murderer) well we can all see why he's drawn to the MRA 'movement'. He's a friendless fringe-dwelling loser. I actually feel bad that the only way he can feel good about himself is by mowing over women. Good luck to him on that! ...

 

Yes there wasn't much intellectual rigour on the anti-feminist side of things and Clem quite easily held her own despite being mostly outnumbered by opposing viewpoints.

 

I really wish that Nevo and Michael Flood had more time to speak because both of them made such succint and insightful points when given the very limited opportunity.

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schwatzen

Yes there wasn't much intellectual rigour on the anti-feminist side of things and Clem quite easily held her own despite being mostly outnumbered by opposing viewpoints.

 

I really wish that Nevo and Michael Flood had more time to speak because both of them made such succint and insightful points when given the very limited opportunity.

 

Nevo had such a unique perspective too given when they have appeared to the outside world both "female" and "male" and convincingly so. What was said though was incredibly mic drop worthy.

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schwatzen

I also find it very interesting these MRA's are so scared all the time. From Cassie Jaye not appearing to Adrian using the name "Adrian". They really do not have the courage of their convictions at all. They really can't handle any heat whatsoever.

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AsperHacker

 

 

Not too sure, but I thought it was unfair (and somewhat irrelevant) for the mod to grill him at such length about his refusal to use his real name. Waste of time that could have been better spent exploring his viewpoint IMO.

 

What frustrates me about the MRA movement is that it legitimately has a lot of shared ground with feminism, and men who are genuinely interested in those issues have much to gain from becoming allies with the feminist movement. I wish they could look beyond all the red-pill propaganda to see that.

 

Teasing the genuine guys out from the misognynists who just want a stick to beat women with is the tricky part. I mean, from the footage they showed this guy Adrian did host get togethers for men (and women) to talk about issues that impact on men. It was a shame that we didn't get to hear more from him because he did seem like he genuinely wanted to address those issues.

 

Was he a "good" MRA, or one of the bad seeds? Impossible to tell from the panel discussion. Another wasted opportunity.

 

Agreed that it was a waste of time and mostly irrelevant. But, it was just another thing he didn't seem to have a coherent answer for. And relevant in terms of the abuse copped by women not afraid to stand up, names attached and all.

 

I disagree that there is shared ground with feminism and mras. People interested in men's issues, yes. Mras, no. Men's rights aren't an issue. I don't believe he was at all interested in addressing the real issues men are facing. To me, he came across as a man who is p*ssed about feminism and can't quite put into words his arguments... because they suck. And he hosted get together with honey badgers. That should say enough!

 

I'd have been more interested in hearing from the uni guy. He was SO privileged but didn't seem so angry with women for men's issues.

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Nobody Cool

 

I disagree that there is shared ground with feminism and mras. People interested in men's issues, yes. Mras, no. Men's rights aren't an issue.

 

I agree re: rights but the problem as I see it is that I assume there are people who are genuinely interested in men's issues who become part of that movement, because MRAs use those issues as a rallying cry to attract moderate men to their cause (and to lend it a veneer of credibility that it doesn't otherwise deserve).

 

I imagine - like feminism - that the MRA movement attracts people with a wide spectrum of values, from the moderate to the extreme and the batsh*t crazy. Some of the more moderate types probably get gradually radicalised too, I imagine.

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AsperHacker

 

 

I agree re: rights but the problem as I see it is that I assume there are people who are genuinely interested in men's issues who become part of that movement, because MRAs use those issues as a rallying cry to attract moderate men to their cause (and to lend it a veneer of credibility that it doesn't otherwise deserve).

 

I imagine - like feminism - that the MRA movement attracts people with a wide spectrum of values, from the moderate to the extreme and the batsh*t crazy. Some of the more moderate types probably get gradually radicalised too, I imagine.

 

You're probably right. It's just that in my experience, the men I know who are passionate about men's issues are... feminists! Go figure.

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