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Double J

Two issues about having fourth child-advice needed please.

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Future-self

To me, a warning that another pregnancy has you being at high risk for having a condition that could be fatal for you as well as the baby makes the decision made for me - regretfully but done. I just would not, could not, risk my life and leave my beautiful children without me. Let alone even if things aren't that serious even bed rest or a prem delivery could see you spiral into severe debt.

 

To me, it is financially terrifying that you are living so close to the bone whilst still going into more and more debt every day. To live as frugally as you do - in itself admirable in may ways don't get me wrong - BUT not even be getting ahead for all that scrimping is financially really frightening to me.

 

Isn't people's financial reality one of the top reasons people don't have more children? People stopping at 1 or 2 children really love children and love being Mums too. But simply won't have more than they can afford.

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The Awesome One

We manage as DH earns a good salary, I'm a stay at home mum for the moment, we just bought our first home, we stay far far away from credit cards, only spend what we have and have 0 debt other than our mortgage. The plan was that I'd stay home until the kids hit school as Childcare fees simply cost more than I'd make to make it worth it. I had just started looking at returning to work or study when ds3 made an appearance so I'm staying home for a couple more years now.

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Mozzie1

I'm surprised the focus of this thread has been money. Whilst I wouldn't have another in your financial position, for me the health issue is far bigger.

 

I recently lost a loved one to pregnancy complications (along with her baby). It DOES happen. Placenta accretia is very dangerous.

 

Don't do it.

Edited by Mozzie1
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Mpjp is feral

No I would not.

 

I would not risk my 3 kids right to have their mum around, to fulfil my own needs.

 

That's very blunt I know, I'm sorry, but whilst I might grieve my dream I simply wouldn't do it.

Edited by Mpjp is feral

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But seriously

I would absolutely agree that there is a certain amount of brevity in sandgropergirl's posts original.gif

 

If brevity means hat i understand it means, then frankly, yep. But hey, people can beat around as much as they like, financial considerations matter

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Double J

Popping in to say thank you all again for taking time to respond. As stated in my original post, I needed to read some wise rational feedback to help me knock this longing I have on the head.

 

I am an professional and have a great income and earning capacity. We will be able to pay off the credit cards within a year or two max when we are down to one child at childcare. My job is very secure but of course that is subject to the unexpected happening and hence my being frugal wherever possible to minimise what is being charged to credit. I also am trying to communicate that I nor my husband are spendthrifts if that makes sense, we keep costs minimal where possible.

 

It is interesting our tolerance levels, credit card debt on zero interest transfers (knowing on our combined income will be paid off and currently being paid off) doesn't frighten me as much as not working in this economy (ie hard to get jobs and partner leaving or passing away). It shows that we all have different tolerances to things. Because we both work, we have income protection and redundancy insurance but yes, we have a high mortgage ( no deposit or equity when we bought so had to also get Loan Mortgage Insurance) and child care is crippling, so I need to suck it up and enjoy the blessings I have,

 

As for my frugal approach, I need to be clear that my kids live a luxurious life, you would never know it looking at our home or kids, they have everything they need and more. It is simply that I enjoy getting a bargain (ie buying amazing second hand furniture etc) and we don't go on holidays. We have all the trappings of life toys books, clothes etc, just bought cheaply because I love to thrift!

 

I was simply trying to communicate within the large families section of this thread that I would love to have one and despite working hard at uni for years, the cost of housing and childcare is still a roadblock. Most of you in this section have large families so am still fascinated how you manage it. It seems getting a head start (in terms of housing) in your early 20's is a key factor, which we did not do because of uni. I also regret now not saving when I started work when I was 16 as a casual retail employee whilst I studied or indeed when I graduated from uni for those years before we bought our home. I hope to pass on this lesson to my kids though.

Edited by Double J
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Veritas Vinum Arte

For me it would be a no due to health. As PP have mentioned something that could potentially kill you and leave your existing children without a mother to me would be a selfish choice to try for more.

 

I know I was told after my third to have no more. My scar nearly ruptured my uterus in my third (delivered at 36wks). My OB strongly advised against a third and said if I did happen to fall pregnant (and not terminate) baby would be delivered 32-34wks at the latest due to it being too risky.

 

 

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Freddie'sMum

I got stuck on the OPs first post when she said they were in "huge debt" and pretty much after that I responded to the financial side of things.

 

OP - if you do have a serious health problem by having baby #4 - what happens then ? You have said you have no family nearby to help you with the child care. I would count my blessings at the 3 wonderful kids you have now - and work on reducing that "huge debt" once all the kids are in school.

 

I would also look at whether it would be cheaper to do family day care or get an au pair / nanny rather than keep paying crippling daycare fees.

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CallMeFeral

DoubleJ - just on one one bit of your post - we didn't get into the housing market in our early 20s - I think I was actually 30 by the time we bought. But I did start saving from the time I finished uni and started work, spent some time living at home so I wouldn't have to pay rent and could save more, so when we DID buy it was with an adequate deposit (and it was also a very tiny far out place on a main road). We intentionally didn't take on a scary sized mortgage because we are both very risk averse. Sometimes I wish we had, as it would probably still be paid off by now and we would have a house that fits us - but at the times of financial stress I'm very glad we didn't as it would have created a lot of conflict due to the stress.

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Double J

DoubleJ - just on one one bit of your post - we didn't get into the housing market in our early 20s - I think I was actually 30 by the time we bought. But I did start saving from the time I finished uni and started work, spent some time living at home so I wouldn't have to pay rent and could save more, so when we DID buy it was with an adequate deposit (and it was also a very tiny far out place on a main road). We intentionally didn't take on a scary sized mortgage because we are both very risk averse. Sometimes I wish we had, as it would probably still be paid off by now and we would have a house that fits us - but at the times of financial stress I'm very glad we didn't as it would have created a lot of conflict due to the stress.

 

I think that is the key, saving as early as you can. I didn't and neither did my husband, not a penny, even we lived at home straight after finishing university. I plan to teach my kids about the need to save some of you earnings and the benefits this brings. Managing money is a topic I am very interested now and have been listening to a lot of podcasts on the subject and reading lots online.

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Jenflea

You say you've got a great salary and earning income, but you're using credit cards to pay the day care fees.

That doesn't sound lie you're as well off as you think you are.

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Double J

You say you've got a great salary and earning income, but you're using credit cards to pay the day care fees.

That doesn't sound lie you're as well off as you think you are.

 

Hi Jenflea,

 

What i meant was that against the average income, I would be considered to have a high salary, its just that our mortgage ( no deposit) is high and childcare fees are chewing it all up.

Edited by Double J
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BeStill

How high a mortgage are we talking? We had a $600,000 mortgage and paid it on one income of about $85,000 plus FTB for about 5 years. We sold and are in a different situation now but with two above average professional incomes (I'm assuming combined household income of close to or more than $200,000) and even with a big mortgage (say $700,000) I think you should be managing ok. Maybe you are not being as careful with money as you think?

 

You may also find financially it is better for you to work part time while your kids are young. I know you like your job but it may come down to sacrificing your career for a period while you have the family you desire (this has been the case for me).

Edited by BeStill
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Double J

How high a mortgage are we talking? We had a $600,000 mortgage and paid it on one income of about $85,000 plus FTB for about 5 years. We sold and are in a different situation now but with two above average professional incomes (I'm assuming combined household income of close to or more than $200,000) and even with a big mortgage (say $700,000) I think you should be managing ok. Maybe you are not being as careful with money as you think?

 

You may also find financially it is better for you to work part time while your kids are young. I know you like your job but it may come down to sacrificing your career for a period while you have the family you desire (this has been the case for me).

 

I think you are right, it is probably costing us money right now for me to work as much as I am, in terms of tax, rebates for private health and CCR running out after six months into the financial year. A very valid point, I am going to pour over our finances tonight and do the sums. Thanks Be Still.

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Chief Pancake Make

*trigger* death!!

 

I sent this thread to a friend who is a doctor. It really upset her.

 

Apart form the finance issue which she simply described as "stupid" was the health issues.

 

She has lost two patients in the last week to placenta accretia.

 

One the baby was born very premature and died and another was a young mum where she stood and physically squeezed bag after bag of blood into as she was bleeding out and they simply couldnt save her.

 

Doctors a re not miracle workers, dont assume they will just

"fix it" sometimes they can't.

 

There are two families out there grieving for the loss of their loved ones - would you want to do that to your family?

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timtam92

no way! I would suggest working 3 days (i do this and it's 24 hours a week). Put your eldest into before/after school care on those days and then only 3 days of childcare - this should save you heaps. If after a year of doing this you are in a better financial situation, then i would consider a forth. but not where you are now.

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Double J

*trigger* death!!

 

I sent this thread to a friend who is a doctor. It really upset her.

 

Apart form the finance issue which she simply described as "stupid" was the health issues.

 

She has lost two patients in the last week to placenta accretia.

 

One the baby was born very premature and died and another was a young mum where she stood and physically squeezed bag after bag of blood into as she was bleeding out and they simply couldnt save her.

 

Doctors a re not miracle workers, dont assume they will just

"fix it" sometimes they can't.

 

There are two families out there grieving for the loss of their loved ones - would you want to do that to your family?

.

 

Hi Chief,

 

I had no intention of upsetting anyone, and haven't made any decisions or come remotely close to doing so. Placenta accretra is a risk with any subsequent pregnancy after a c-section and so could have happened with my second or third child but yes, the risk increases substantially with each pregnancy, hence my OB giving me his advice.

 

I haven't assumed they will fix me if I get this condition, quite the opposite, hence this discussion.

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Double J

no way! I would suggest working 3 days (i do this and it's 24 hours a week). Put your eldest into before/after school care on those days and then only 3 days of childcare - this should save you heaps. If after a year of doing this you are in a better financial situation, then i would consider a forth. but not where you are now.

 

Thanks Tim Tam,

I have thought of that however, this doesn't solve my before or after school care issues for my four year old who starts kindy next year. Kindy hours are 9 till 3 with no before or after school care options.

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BeStill

 

 

Thanks Tim Tam,

I have thought of that however, this doesn't solve my before or after school care issues for my four year old who starts kindy next year. Kindy hours are 9 till 3 with no before or after school care options.

 

Maybe you'll need to hire a nanny who would care for all 3 kids from 3-6, 3 days a week. Or alternatively maybe you'll need to look into LDC rather than preschool.

 

I can see a lot of options and a lot of ways around the problems but if you really have two good incomes and yet can't live your currently lifestyle without going into further debt AND the risks of another pregnancy would be high I wouldn't be doing it. What does your husband think? I know there is no way my husband would risk my life for another child.

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Natttmumm

I agree its all relative and depends how you look at it - everyone priorities are different. One of our close family members has 5 kids but they chose to live with their in laws out of town to afford the last 2 kids. they rent their house to pay the mortgage.

 

We could have had more (we have 3) if we were happy to be out of town and no private school. We chose private school, live in a nice house and 3 kids but we both have to work. I don't think I could work with 4 kids - that would tip me over but again everyone is different.

 

There were times when number 3 was small where I wanted to chuck it all in - move away and stay home.

 

All that aside I would risk a significant health issue unless a specialist convinced me that it was fine.

Edited by Natttmumm
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Double J

Maybe you'll need to hire a nanny who would care for all 3 kids from 3-6, 3 days a week. Or alternatively maybe you'll need to look into LDC rather than preschool.

 

I can see a lot of options and a lot of ways around the problems but if you really have two good incomes and yet can't live your currently lifestyle without going into further debt AND the risks of another pregnancy would be high I wouldn't be doing it. What does your husband think? I know there is no way my husband would risk my life for another child.

 

My husband originally wanted a large family but is against it on medical grounds and the risk to my health/life on our OB's advice. I am seeking a second opinion in October, if anything to help me confirm the fact that there will be no number 4, so closure of sorts.

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BeStill

 

 

My husband originally wanted a large family but is against it on medical grounds and the risk to my health/life on our OB's advice. I am seeking a second opinion in October, if anything to help me confirm the fact that there will be no number 4, so closure of sorts.

 

I don't know much about the condition you mentioned but I googled (yes yes, bad bad). Is an early scheduled c-section with a hysterectomy an option? Obviously this is pretty dramatic and very permenant but it seems it might be a safer option?

 

Honestly, if your husband says he doesn't want to go again, your ob says no and you can't afford the family you currently have then I think the answer is no, as sad as that is when you want a large family.

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AlmondButter

Another who wouldn't consider a fourth child in your position. I am quite financially risk averse but I think you owe it to your existing dependents to shore up your financial situation.

Not only are kids expensive but life doesn't always go to plan, your 4th child might be special needs requiring expensive OT or equipment. Or one of your might be made redundant.

When you're already stretched without a buffer of savings as well as three young children who will be dependent on you for many years yet I wouldn't think or another.

Sorry OP :(

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Lauren59

Double J, I think your response to some posts has been so calm and respectful. You are obviously intelligent, and just seeking some honest, polite opinions.

 

As you said we all give different aspects varying degrees of importance because we are all different, no ones is 'right' really, it al depends on your perspective and situation. We for eg haven't given much priority to my super and I'll have to think about how I'm going to eventually get back into the workplace, but my priority now is staying home to look after our kids. We all have to give up one thing for another and that's a personal choice which should be respected and supported either way.

 

Again I don't have much knowledge of placenta accreta but getting more than one professional opinion would at least mean that you know you have thoroughly explored the option medically before making that decision. I do know a few mums who've had 4 or 5 c-sections with no serious problems so it can be done but the risk is obviously a bit different for each person.

 

I don't doubt your love and enjoyment of the 3 kids you already have and I completely understand wanting another child! We still haven't ruled out one more but that will have implications, good and bad, for our family that we will have to weigh up too.

 

Edited for silly spelling mistake!

Edited by Lauren59
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Double J

Double J, I think your response to some posts has been so calm and respectful. You are obviously intelligent, and just seeking some honest, polite opinions.

 

As you said we all give different aspects varying degrees of importance because we are all different, no ones is 'right' really, it al depends on your perspective and situation. We for eg haven't given much priority to my super and I'll have to think about how I'm going to eventually get back into the workplace, but my priority now is staying home to look after our kids. We all have to give up one thing for another and that's a personal choice which should be respected and supported either way.

 

Again I don't have much knowledge of placenta accreta but getting more than one professional opinion would at least mean that you know you have thoroughly explored the option medically before making that decision. I do know a few mums who've had 4 or 5 c-sections with no serious problems so it can be done but the risk is obviously a bit different for each person.

 

I don't doubt your love and enjoyment of the 3 kids you already have and I completely understand wanting another child! We still haven't ruled out one more but that will have implications, good and bad, for our family that we will have to way up too.

.

 

You are very kind Lauren 59, thank you.

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