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Lifesgood

UPDATE post #36: Is it reasonable to expect a 5 y/o FYOS to clean themselves after soiling accident?

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Beqa

 

 

I am teaching several kids in the spectrum this year...no additional aide funding available. It's sh*t.

Not surprised. Dept Ed tried to place DS in a mainstream kinder class with the only support being that they would send someone to talk to the teacher once each term. He was still full time in nappies (not to mention being non verbal and unable to comprehend even simple instructions). There were no support classes at the school. No idea how they thought the teacher was going to manage.

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Paddlepop

Special school? yes. Normal school? no

Pardon? Care to explain what you mean by this?

 

The lack of empathy and compassion shown by some in this thread has been disgusting and disheartening, especially from those who are teachers. The posters who think that the OP's son simply isn't toilet trained need to go and read up about encopresis. It's not toilet training. It's a medical condition. A diagnosed medical condition. It would be like saying that a diabetic child needs to eat less sugar, or an asthmatic child needs to get fitter and learn to breathe properly. They could do those things but it won't stop the underlying medical condition that they have from needing treatment.

 

All of the comments about OP's son should either not be at school yet, or be home schooled, or be in a special school are so narrow minded and ill informed. FFS, read up about these things before you go saying this sort of stuff to mum of a special needs child with a medical condition. Her son has every right to be at school, and in a mainstream school.

 

A lot of posters from in here would no doubt say that my DD shouldn't have started school last year, or shouldn't be in a mainstream school because of her various issues, including ASD. She's in Year 1 but is still working her way through the Prep curriculum. She hasn't achieved the academic goals of Prep yet. She's getting there. Slowly but steadily. She has a teacher aide for 4.5hrs per day each day. She needs the one on one assistance. You know what though? She has flourished at school. She loves school. She loves learning. She has some lovely friends. Random children at school know DD and will come up and hug her. The staff all know her and seem to genuinely like her. Yes, she needs help and gets help, but she is entitled to a public school education and she is entitled to have that assistance provided by government funding. Her assistance has been slightly reduced as she has gained skills eg she no longer needs to be shadowed in the playground. She is able to happily play with her friends and not need constant assistance. If she does need help she has no hesitation about asking a staff member on playground duty to help her.

 

And the reason for this is? in case you are accused of inappropriate touching I assume?

 

What a fantastic outcome.

 

Not directing this at you of course JKTMum, just fed up with what a ****ed up place this world has become.

Thank goodness my DD's school and staff use a bit of common sense and ignore stupid rules when needed.

 

Last year when DD started school and was still getting the hang of using the toilets, she would get distressed and need some help with wiping her bottom. She has ASD, anxiety, low muscle tone, poor gross and fine motor skills, and other issues. Wiping a bottom cleanly can be tricky with that collection of conditions. It takes a lot of skill to do it successfully. The teacher aides and staff were great. If it was a day that she had her female teacher aide, who would go into the toilet cubicle with DD if needed, she would sometimes wipe DD's bottom for her if DD was too distressed to follow verbal instructions and do it herself. On the days she had her male teacher aide, he would fetch a female staff member to attend to DD in the toilet. Generally is was the head of special ed. who helped DD on those days. On a few occasions she wiped her bottom for her. She later told me that she knew she wasn't supposed to but she's a mum and she's wiped bottoms before so it was no big deal for her to take one minute and help DD out. Better than having a distressed and soiled DD.

 

They knew that we worked intensely with DD at home with her toileting skills, and two of the school toilets were modified to assist DD with becoming independent at toileting. It was also written into her IEP that she required assistance. This year it has been removed from her IEP because she is now more confident and independent. She still has some toilet anxiety at school but nothing like last year.

 

A good dose of common sense would go a long way I think. A bloody big dose of compassion too.

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AsperHacker

Special school? yes. Normal school? no

 

Stupid? Yes. Has a brain? No.

Edited by AsperHacker
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Ellie bean

The only reason I'm glad my DD will need Osmolax indefinitely is that at least I have a small insight into what the OP and her child are dealing with and I have some bloody compassion. Really disgusted and disappointed with some of the comments here.

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.Jerry.

In Qld, having encopresis alone would not bring any funding for an aide at all.

The only conditions that come with funding for aides/support are VI, HI, ID, ASD, PI.

Funding can be sought for tube feeding, diabetes management, suctioning, oxygen administration, managing stomas etc.

There is no support for toileting otherwise.

 

In my experience generally we do help children wipe themselves where absolutely necessary. If there is a big cleanup required, however, we do ring parents as we don't have showers or very private facilities for cleanup. In most cases the children prefer their parents doing this task.

If needed we would do it.

Usually a teacher aide would be pulled off class to help. We would also usually have two people there.

 

It always amuses me that people think children can get 1:1 or close aides. Even our most challenging student, with high level disabilities doesn't get more than an an hour or so a day. Aides are shared around the school and are not dedicated to a specific child. This is in a school with a special education program.

 

In the OP's situation I would have a meeting the school principal and special education coordinator to write up a plan to deal with toileting issues.

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Brownbear

It is up to the school and the department of education to ensure that your son's needs are met, OP. And a basic human need, like maintaining appropriate hygeine, should be the top of their list of issues to sort out.

 

Speak to the school - they need to work with you to come up with a plan.

 

I am sure that there are available staff members around (aides in another class? Admin staff?) who could help clean up your son when he needs it. Really, how hard could it be to organise? If they need special training to wipe a bottom, then that training needs to be provided by the school/department.

 

On another note, the lack of compassion in this thread stems from people not being exposed to disability. So for those of you who have no experience of disability and schooling, here are the facts:

 

- Any child is entitled to attend mainstream education

- Education is compulsory

- Special schools have certain requirements that students must meet to attend (ASD schools require lower speech scores, lower IQ, or severe behavioural problems)

- Parents need to work to earn money and make a positive contribution to society (ie most can't drop everything to homeschool)

 

Therefore the only option for children like the OPs (and there are thousands out there, my son is one too) is to attend a mainstream primary school.

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Weirdly Sane

I think there's a lot of variation between states. (OT but yet another example IME where we should have a national system; this country has way too many tiers of government for the population and it would be much easier to have harmonised education systems).

 

So in VIC ASD is not an automatic qualifying condition, and aides are assigned on a needs basis assessing behaviour, risk etc. Children with ASD who do not have an intellectual impairment and whose language is not significantly delayed - those who may in the past have received a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome - will not usually be funded.

 

Aides are however linked with a particular child. My DS had an aide for 4.5 hours a day at primary school which got him through the academic blocks. He mostly had the same aide although sometimes if an aide worked part time there'd be 2 job-sharing.

 

I am aware that the school did do a lot of pulling of rabbits out of hats to get that level of support in place, as usually he'd have received 3 hours a day. We also had a higher funding level as it was based on his needs at starting age and not reviewed. Which, although to our advantage, is silly.

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.Jerry.

I should have clarified in my post that in Qld a diagnosis of ASD does automatically qualify for funding. The funding level though is determined by the completion of a student "profile" which details what adjustments are needed daily/weekly/monthly etc.

Having toileting issues along with ASD would make the profile attract higher funding for the school as "self care" and "health" are part of the profile.

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Gumbette

There is a SN unit at the school for high needs children. Some of the high needs kids attend the mainstream classes with an aid. DS is not considered to need an aide. What he really needs is me there with him :cry:

 

Huh? So no one from the SN's unit was able to help? Surely they have an aide in the classroom that could assist your son?

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Paddlepop

It always amuses me that people think children can get 1:1 or close aides. Even our most challenging student, with high level disabilities doesn't get more than an an hour or so a day. Aides are shared around the school and are not dedicated to a specific child. This is in a school with a special education program.

Really? Sounds like you need a better head of special ed. Ours is a genius at getting funding. My DD is not the only one who has an individual aide at the school. At least one other child does and in fact that child has an aide for the entire school day.

 

I'm also surprised at no showers. There's one in the senior girls toilets within a large disabled toilet cubicle, and in the female staff toilets at my DD's school. I would imagine there's also one in the male staff toilets. No idea about the senior boys toilets. There's also possibly one within the disabled toilet facility in the school hall but haven't had reason to use it so don't know.

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.Jerry.

Really? Sounds like you need a better head of special ed. Ours is a genius at getting funding. My DD is not the only one who has an individual aide at the school. At least one other child does and in fact that child has an aide for the entire school day.

 

I'm also surprised at no showers. There's one in the senior girls toilets within a large disabled toilet cubicle, and in the female staff toilets at my DD's school. I would imagine there's also one in the male staff toilets. No idea about the senior boys toilets. There's also possibly one within the disabled toilet facility in the school hall but haven't had reason to use it so don't know.

 

I have been principal for many years and we do access "additional allocation" hours but have only seen once a 1:1 aide situation in a mainstream school with SEP. We do have specific funding for kids with medical needs, so in those situations it really is 1:1, but in all other cases an aide is responsible for more than one student. Sounds like you have a good situation there.

 

The only shower at our school is in the groundsman's room. Our school is very old though, so toilet block is ancient. Have been in other schools that have a shower.

We have a disability access toilet that is nice and large, but no shower in it.

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Bone Apple Tea

FWIW here is my experience with sending a non toilet trained, developmentally delayed child with encopresis to school.

 

The November before she started the staff at the special needs unit wanted to see me. I was talked to v e r y s l o w l y like I am a complete moron and given a book on toilet training. Telling them that this was my fourth child and she has a diagnosed medical condition fell on deaf ears.

 

Fortunately DD only had one poo accident in her first year of school and someone did clean her up. I would have been horrified if she of just been left, given I had told the school the situation well in advance and sent baby wipes, gloves, change of clothes etc to the school.

 

All prep classrooms at our school have part time teachers aids, that may have made a difference.

 

in year 2 she came home having wet her pants pretty well everyday for a semester. Noone seemed to care. It was brought on by anxiety. She was embarrassed and never told the teacher she needed to go.

 

OP I am disgusted that your DS was just left.

Edited by Senna

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Paddlepop

Jerry: I think our toilets were stripped out and redone in the past 5 or 10 years. It was the only way to make the senior boys' smell vaguely decent or something. They were 50 years old and kind of disgusting apparently. Our HOSES is awesome. It will be a shame to see her leave at the end of the year. If you need a new one, I suggest head hunting her. She currently doesn't have a new position to go to. Happy to PM her name to you.

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happywith4

So in terms of next steps - would it be best if I see our GP to get some kind of documented proof of DS's encopresis problem?

 

 

Yes definitely, the school will need this documentation to move forward and apply for funding. Although in SA, where I teach the ASD diagnosis would attract funding.

 

I teach FYOS and when toileting accidents occur we have support staff to help out (some of which are continence trained). Where possible our support staff will 'talk' the child through cleaning themselves up rather than physically clean them, but they always assist them.

Edited by happywith4

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Expelliarmus

*deletes entire post as a rant about disability education funding would not be in her best interests*

 

#giveagonski

 

*sigh*

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ytt

I'm an aide in a mainstream school in the special ed unit. I toilet every day.

 

We don't have to help mainstream kids (ie rather than call parent to pick up) but we do, I see no difference in helping mainstream kids as to helping support kids. I know office staff can't, teachers can't.

 

If a child wets the office directs them to get spare clothes from bag and they do it themselves. If they can't or if they don't have any spare clothes either the parent is called or sometimes we have spare clothes in not very good condition that the child will use. I often help.

 

I'm pretty sure aides can refuse to clean up a child but honestly if you do you should be in another job!!! My school kiddies all started in nappies and I've helped toilet train (or rather toilet time) so you can imagine I've cleaned up a lot of accidents!

 

I've also cleaned up mainstream, one child had a rather messy accident. I offered to clean the student up (shoes, socks everything). Started and realised there was no way I could wipe it off so got permission from the boss to half shower, it was the only way to clean. Parents were called to give permission but they didn't answer - hence the reason my boss gave permission. I made sure there was another aide in the room and talked the student through everything I did.

 

Later in the day the office manager came and gave me a hug - on instruction from the mum and thanked me profusely for helping her daughter and has given us a blanket permission to help out (daughter has additional needs). This makes me keep going in my job, helping the kids and knowing I'm appreciated (well mostly, some parents are not very appreciative).

 

 

There is a SN unit at the school for high needs children. Some of the high needs kids attend the mainstream classes with an aid. DS is not considered to need an aide. What he really needs is me there with him :cry:

 

Why don't they come to help??? I'd be asking to utilise these aides, surely as they are in special ed they will be used to toileting?

 

 

I think interrupting a siblings studies to attend a younger child would need to be a very very last resort .

 

I'm sorry but I don't believe a sibling should help at all. It's not their job. It's the school's job to put in place assistance when there are medical needs.

 

Sure the odd wet toileting accident and no spare clothes a parent should be called. But soiling at primary school generally indicates a medical issue.

 

 

I work as an aide in a Victorian state school. Even as an aide we are not supposed to directly clean up a child with a toileting accident. We are supposed to support and explain what to do but not actually touch the child. I know it's rough but that is what we are told.

 

As the teachers are unable to leave the other kids in the class and we have no school nurse, it often falls to the aides to do things like cleaning up vomit and deal with taking children to the office if they have accidents or are ill. No matter how much we try to maintain good hygene we catch so many illnesses during the year. I feel like I'm constantly wanting to wash and disinfect my hands.

 

Really? are you an integration aide or aide in a support class? Because I have to physically assist students in all aspect of toileting.

 

I don't get illness and I clean up vomit, copious amounts of green snot, fecal matter and gastro diarrhea, I hold the sick bag when my school kiddies are vomiting (Just like I did when my own vomited). I wash my hands all day long! I lose count how many times I wash my hands in one day.

 

I do have a health care certificate though and I'm able to tube feed, catheterise and attend to tracheostomies however don't have the need to do this in our school at this stage.

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red_squirrel

Does the school have any aides at all?

The answer to this will be telling.

 

I'm familiar with the NsW. System.

 

In general, There will be several kids at the school who are each entitled to 1+ hours of funding each week. Often the numbers are small, e.g 2 hours. But can be bigger.

 

what the Principal or someone else will do is bundle these hours together in order to employ one or more full time/part time aides. They then float between these kids as needs be.

 

Sometimes this doesn't happen for one of two reasons. It can be the school unwilling to do the paperwork for a variety of reasons OR it can be that the parents don't have the paperwork required for the school to do the paperwork because they don't want to label their children. Sometimes a little of both. The paperwork is strict. Without recent medical reports funding can't be obtained. So even if you are only entitled to 1 hour, putting them all together gets an aide.

 

however If the school is trying to tell you they can't get funding for anyone then you are best off looking for another school because they are never going to change that mindset. I have come across schools like this.

 

 

ETA. They will need approx at least 20 hours before they can/will employ someone but it is better to have a full time person obviously.

Edited by red_squirrel

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Lifesgood

Why don't they come to help??? I'd be asking to utilise these aides, surely as they are in special ed they will be used to toileting?

I'd feel terribly guilty about dragging them away from high needs kids. I'm sure they are run off their feet already.

 

I'm sorry but I don't believe a sibling should help at all. It's not their job. It's the school's job to put in place assistance when there are medical needs.

One afternoon when DD and DS arrived at OOSH, DS had soiled himself. DD told the OOSH staff and they handed her some wipes and sent the two of them off to the toilet together. She had to clean him, change his clothes and toilet him.

 

Look, from the sounds of it, what my DS needs is an aide to come and take him to a private toilet once every 2(?) hours during the day and encourage him to poo in the toilet. With a little assistance he can toilet himself. In addition to that we probably need an aide to clean him and change his clothes if he has soiled himself, although this should be quite rare if he is taken to a quiet, private toilet regularly through the day. All up I'd be surprised if this equated to 1 hour of aide time each day. Probably more like half an hour.

 

There are showers in the SN unit. I think there are others as well. DS doesn't usually create such a mess that he needs a shower.

 

I will add gloves to his bag along with wipes, plastic bags and change of clothes already there.

 

We will see what the principal says after Easter weekend. I will make a GP appt on Monday as well.

 

Jerry - our school has aides, some 1:1 because of the high needs kids we support. We are in NSW.

 

It's probably no coincidence that the mum that helped DS on Thursday has a high needs child herself. She is a supermum, I am in awe of her. We were exchanging SMS's about how much poo we each clean up (she with her high needs DS plus two other kids, me with DS and my Dad (dementia, now in nappies). She sent me the most gorgeous SMS with the poo emoticon yesterday :rofl: I needed the laughs.

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JKTMum
Really? are you an integration aide or aide in a support class?

 

In Victorian state schools there is no such thing as a support class. There are Special schools, Special Developmental schools and Mainstream schools. We are at a mainstream school where many children with severe behavior, ASD and other special needs are not funded and left to get along with just the teacher (in a class of 25 to 28) and any time an aide (if there is a funded child in the class or year level) can spare. The two kids I am allocated to this year have intellectual disabilities and the older one has funding but the younger one also has ASD, severe behavior and speech issues. Currently he is unfunded (Prep) but our school has evaluated that he cant successfully or safely be at school without fulltime aides (so there are two of us who work with him half time each, fully on him as he can't be left unattended, even for a minute (due to the behavior as he is a threat to the other students, he lashes out), so we can't assist any other students in the class unless he is working one on one with the teacher. We spend our other allocated time (neither of us are at school the full week) working with our other allocated children who only get a couple of hours per day at most. In those classes we can sometimes work with a small group of unfunded kids along with our funded child to spread ourselves around.

 

It is nowhere near an ideal situation, there are not enough aides to work with the kids who need help. I know of classes at our school where there are children who could really benefit from aide assistance and there are no aides in those classes.

 

Maybe my immune system is low as it's only my second year back working and my own kids are all older and long past bringing home multiple illnesses from school. Gastro ran rampant through two year levels this term (teachers and students), as we have an open plan school and those two year levels move around that large space constantly during the day. Hand sanitizer is not provided in the classrooms and only the staff toilets have soap for handwashing so yes germs seem to spread quickly. I avoided the gastro luckily but came down with at least three colds in 8 weeks and pretty much every teacher has been off ill at least once this term, the Prep teacher was off for a week. Maybe it's just been a bad run in our area for illnesses the last 6 months (also had Chicken pox go through last year).

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atthebeach

It sounds like the OPs school hasn't been willing to or know how to get the support necessary for either of her children. Maybe it would be better to contact an advocacy organisation first and get their advice, such as Continence Foundation of Australia:

http://www.continence.org.au/pages/healthy-bladder-and-bowel-habits-in-schools.html

 

The govt primary school my kid was at, had a child with health issues that constituted a disability, and the school was doing barely anything for the child. I don't think the Principal or Assistant Principal even knew they had an obligation to that child.

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Lifesgood

Just a quick update:

 

The principal phoned me this morning before school to discuss a plan. We agreed that DS would be toilet-timed every 2 hours during the day. The principal herself is going to to do one of them! She doesn't have spare aides but she thinks she will be able to juggle it with one of the admin staff and herself. If he has an accident she said he will be taken to the special needs unit and one of the staff there will clean him up.

 

She was very lovely and pragmatic about it, I almost cried with gratitude and relief. I went up to the school today and caught up with her in person to discuss things a bit more.

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born.a.girl

What a fabulous update. Common sense prevails! You really weren't asking for much, just that when he DID need help, it was time sensitive, and it seemed the system was pretty inflexible on that count, until now.

 

 

Hope it all works well, and that's he's happy.

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Therese

That's a great update! I really hope it all works out.

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Caseymay

So great to hear that you have a good outcome. I am really shocked reading these responses. I can't believe a little boy would be left in soiled clothes. How that can be allowed is beyond me.

 

I am a Prep teacher (FYOS is QLD) and my aide and I have often had to clean children up. We do it quickly and discretely so that none of the other children know. We always ensure that the other one of us is nearby for accountability. I have never heard that teachers 'can't' change a child?

 

ETA: I am very fortunate to have toilets in my classroom (old preschool building) but even if this was not the case the child would be cleaned up.

Edited by Caseymay
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Riotproof

Just a quick update:

 

The principal phoned me this morning before school to discuss a plan. We agreed that DS would be toilet-timed every 2 hours during the day. The principal herself is going to to do one of them! She doesn't have spare aides but she thinks she will be able to juggle it with one of the admin staff and herself. If he has an accident she said he will be taken to the special needs unit and one of the staff there will clean him up.

 

She was very lovely and pragmatic about it, I almost cried with gratitude and relief. I went up to the school today and caught up with her in person to discuss things a bit more.

 

Brilliant.

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