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Lifesgood

UPDATE post #36: Is it reasonable to expect a 5 y/o FYOS to clean themselves after soiling accident?

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DQMission

Love the ignorance here.

 

A clue for all you ppl harping on about "maybe mainstream isnt the right place for your child" - A specialist school would not take the OP's child!!!!!!!!! Specialist schools are not places where you put children to avoid "ickiness"!!!! Seriously, grow some fecking compassion. All ok for you to spew that tripe and move on, because its not your bloody kid is it?!

 

OP, Your OT can and should be helping you with this. Self care and hygiene is part of their job. Not to mention they should be going into the school to be seeing where he needs support and making recommendations. They should also have management ideas.

 

Can I also ask why you couldnt use a staff member from the special needs unit at the school to help with toileting?

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FeralZombieMum

Toileting is a trigger in most application processes to ask for additional funding. My daughter only became toilet trained during her second year of attending school.

 

This jogged my memory of what a fyos Victorian public teacher said about 15 years ago - it might actually be in a child's best interest (when talking about special needs) not to be toilet trained for starting school - as they have a better chance of getting funding. Hopefully it applies for NSW. Not sure if it's no longer the case for Vic.

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DontKnow2015

Apparently he came home with another accident in his pants. I feel like crying.

 

Honestly though thank you for all the kind words and support, it helps so much. And I don't take the harsher comments to heart generally. If it isn't something you've experienced personally it can be difficult to understand.

 

I will make it my mission to get DS some help.

 

DD has only just trained at 6 to not have accidents during the day. She has a very rare one around poos. It took a term of very close work between myself and her school at the time with a timed management plan.

 

She is still not toilet trained during the night yet I am still trying to work out that challenge. I was so scared she would never toilet train to any standard...

 

Big hugs and keep pushing....

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Tiredmum4

If a kid poos in their pants I would not expect them to be able to deal with it at 5. My son,7, was on a zoo excersion and had an upset stomach. Got to toilet but the only cubicle was occupied and he poo'd himself waiting. A dad helped him clean up but he stank to high heaven when I picked him up from school. No one rang me. I cannot imagine any young child being capable of cleaning up themselves when they fully shat themselves. That is not the same as wiping yourself after a normal poo.

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LittleMissPink

There is a SN unit at the school for high needs children. Some of the high needs kids attend the mainstream classes with an aid. DS is not considered to need an aide. What he really needs is me there with him :cry:

 

You NEED to push the issue! He has ASD, but he also has a health/medical issue. Keep pushing!

 

Are you in NSW?

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Expelliarmus

I'm just at a loss that children with ASD are going unfunded in some states!

 

Unfathomable.

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LittleMissPink

Also, it wouldnt be a fulltime aid just for your DS, however they would pay an Aide already at the school an allowance for cleaning up your DS each time he has an accident, and they can remind him (and take him) to the toilet each break time.

 

This might be of some use http://www.schools.nsw.edu.au/media/downloads/schoolsweb/studentsupport/programs/disability/supportdocument.pdf

 

The person that did our health care plan originally was an Itinerant Support Teacher Behaviour. She worked covering a few schools transitioning kids who had issues. If she said that they had to change her accidents, they had to. She even put in her report that DD2 was allowed to use the disabled toilet with a teacher aide, and had a cubile in the main toilets modified for her with a step, railings and easier toilet paper dispenser. She goes above the school, but the school apply for the funding.

 

You need to call a meeting with the Deputy Principal and school counsellor to discuss the issues, and to find out what they are going to do to help your son, and if they dont, make it very clear you will go to the School District office.

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EsmeLennox

I'm just at a loss that children with ASD are going unfunded in some states!

 

Unfathomable.

 

I am teaching several kids in the spectrum this year...no additional aide funding available. It's sh*t.

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Weirdly Sane

This thread has made me think. Whilst I stand by my earlier comment - that there are often toileting issues when ASD is involved - I can also see the point that subsequent posters have made, that plenty of children without ASD also have encopresis or other medical issues resulting in soiling accidents. And support should be available for ALL children in this situation, whatever the medical or neurological factors at play.

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LittleMissPink

This thread has made me think. Whilst I stand by my earlier comment - that there are often toileting issues when ASD is involved - I can also see the point that subsequent posters have made, that plenty of children without ASD also have encopresis or other medical issues resulting in soiling accidents. And support should be available for ALL children in this situation, whatever the medical or neurological factors at play.

 

Exactly! My DD does not have ASD, but has other neurological problems that caused her Encopresis. She got support. Still gets support.

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Lifesgood

This thread has made me think. Whilst I stand by my earlier comment - that there are often toileting issues when ASD is involved - I can also see the point that subsequent posters have made, that plenty of children without ASD also have encopresis or other medical issues resulting in soiling accidents. And support should be available for ALL children in this situation, whatever the medical or neurological factors at play.

I agree. My DD has no diagnosed disability yet she had a distressing year or so where she experienced encopresis at school. It was humiliating. She was 6 years old. It wasn't a toilet training issue. There was no support.

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Lifesgood

OP since he has ASD, the school would have had to complete relevant documents for funding for a teachers aid. If he has not yet been allocated a teachers aid then you need to bring this up with the principal as all children with special needs who pass the 'criteria' whatever that may be, are entitled to their own teachers aid.

 

Please talk to the principal and get this sorted as he needs assistance until his toileting problems are resolved.

 

Are you also seeing an OT for his sensory problems and a psychologist who can also assist with toileting? It's worth looking into. Paediatricians like to prescribe meds to soften stools but this just creates other problems such as making a mess when having an accident. It's not really resolving the underlying issue, and that's what you should be looking into getting fixed.

My son also has issues going to the toilet at school. He has no problems at home, it's just something he has put in his head about using the toilets at school. OT is helping from a sensory perspective and the psychologist is helping him adjust his way of thinking around public toilets. It's a long process but he will eventually get there. Think of the excitement you will both feel when he finally masters it. I hope it gets sorted soon.

The school has not applied for anything AFAIK - are you sure about this?

No we aren't seeing anyone specifically for this issue. His OT is a DIR Floortime therapy centre so they don't do traditional OT. I will start with our GP and see about getting a referral to a gastro paed I think.

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Lifesgood

Also, it wouldnt be a fulltime aid just for your DS, however they would pay an Aide already at the school an allowance for cleaning up your DS each time he has an accident, and they can remind him (and take him) to the toilet each break time.

 

This might be of some use http://www.schools.n...ortdocument.pdf

 

The person that did our health care plan originally was an Itinerant Support Teacher Behaviour. She worked covering a few schools transitioning kids who had issues. If she said that they had to change her accidents, they had to. She even put in her report that DD2 was allowed to use the disabled toilet with a teacher aide, and had a cubile in the main toilets modified for her with a step, railings and easier toilet paper dispenser. She goes above the school, but the school apply for the funding.

 

You need to call a meeting with the Deputy Principal and school counsellor to discuss the issues, and to find out what they are going to do to help your son, and if they dont, make it very clear you will go to the School District office.

Thanks for all this info :) I will be well-armed when I speak to the principal. I see what you mean about using an existing aide. That makes sense.

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Lifesgood

Love the ignorance here.

 

A clue for all you ppl harping on about "maybe mainstream isnt the right place for your child" - A specialist school would not take the OP's child!!!!!!!!! Specialist schools are not places where you put children to avoid "ickiness"!!!! Seriously, grow some fecking compassion. All ok for you to spew that tripe and move on, because its not your bloody kid is it?!

 

OP, Your OT can and should be helping you with this. Self care and hygiene is part of their job. Not to mention they should be going into the school to be seeing where he needs support and making recommendations. They should also have management ideas.

 

Can I also ask why you couldnt use a staff member from the special needs unit at the school to help with toileting?

'ickiness' I love it! You are exactly right. There is a bit of a an 'ewww' factor about it that is a part of the problem, and shouldn't be.

 

I don't know about the SNU staff, I would imagine they are fully occupied. The kids they look after require full time (or close to) attention.

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solongandthanksfor

Special school? yes. Normal school? no

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Lifesgood

So in terms of next steps - would it be best if I see our GP to get some kind of documented proof of DS's encopresis problem?

 

I can't easily see his paed as he has relocated his rooms and is now 40 km away (on the other side of Sydney, not 40 km on a country road). And he has a looooong lead time for appointments.

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LittleMissPink

So in terms of next steps - would it be best if I see our GP to get some kind of documented proof of DS's encopresis problem?

 

 

Yes, a letter from the GP outlining ALL your DS's health and neurological issues is a great start.

 

And FWIW, a "laxative and hope it goes away" is not correct treatment for encopresis. Laxatives dont help the bowel learn what to do. This is in no way a dig at you, but I think it was your GP who said something similar? If you want Encopresis advice, come to the Special Needs forum, theres lots of threads.

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JKTMum

I work as an aide in a Victorian state school. Even as an aide we are not supposed to directly clean up a child with a toileting accident. We are supposed to support and explain what to do but not actually touch the child. I know it's rough but that is what we are told.

 

Also the thing about using an aide already at the school and that aide getting paid extra each time they deal with a toileting accident, doesn't happen at our school, we don't get extra for anything we do, just our basic wage.

 

I work in two year levels this year including prep. The child I am allocated to has quite severe ASD but so far has not required toileting help (actually hates using the toilets and seems to hold on all day without accidents as we can't get him to go). I have however been called on occasion to one of the other prep classes to assist with a wetting accident. Child in that case had no spare clothes in bag, office had no spare clothes (another issue in itself) and mum was half an hour away. Only thing I could do was take the child to sickbay and have him sit there in wet clothes (including shoes and socks poor kid), calm him down as he was quite distressed and wait for mum to turn up, also had to clean the classroom carpet and make sure the other kids were kept away from the area until that was done. If he'd had spare clothes I still would have only been able to guide him through removing his wet clothes, putting them in a plastic bag and putting his clean clothes on through the door of the sickbay toilet. For soiling accidents that the child can't deal with themselves again we are instructed to ring a parent or other emergency contact to come and change the child.

 

If I was asked to do it (and allowed to) I would probably do it as my older daughter also suffered soiling in early primary school (she is also ASD). I know it wouldn't be pleasant but it's not pleasant for the child either. As the teachers are unable to leave the other kids in the class and we have no school nurse, it often falls to the aides to do things like cleaning up vomit and deal with taking children to the office if they have accidents or are ill. No matter how much we try to maintain good hygene we catch so many illnesses during the year. I feel like I'm constantly wanting to wash and disinfect my hands.

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Lifesgood

I work as an aide in a Victorian state school. Even as an aide we are not supposed to directly clean up a child with a toileting accident. We are supposed to support and explain what to do but not actually touch the child. I know it's rough but that is what we are told.

And the reason for this is? in case you are accused of inappropriate touching I assume?

 

What a fantastic outcome.

 

Not directing this at you of course JKTMum, just fed up with what a ****ed up place this world has become.

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Lifesgood

Yes, a letter from the GP outlining ALL your DS's health and neurological issues is a great start.

 

And FWIW, a "laxative and hope it goes away" is not correct treatment for encopresis. Laxatives dont help the bowel learn what to do. This is in no way a dig at you, but I think it was your GP who said something similar? If you want Encopresis advice, come to the Special Needs forum, theres lots of threads.

No it was our dev paed, who suggested it in conjunction with the encopresis plan we already had in place. We unfortunately already have quite a lot of experience in treating encopresis and enuresis.

 

ETA - I will take your advice and check in the SN forum to read some threads there.

Edited by Lifesgood

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happynow

As a teacher aide in a prep class with asd children , it is our duty of care to assist the child and help clean them up . I'm my classroom we have gloves ect on hand for when we have to :-)

Edited by happynow
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zogee

I have no experience just wanted to offer my support to you, it must be very stressful and heart rending as a mum when your child can't access the (rather basic) help they need xx

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Beqa

Special school? yes. Normal school? no

The 'Normal school'. Just for the 'normal' kids... That's nice.

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