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Lifesgood

UPDATE post #36: Is it reasonable to expect a 5 y/o FYOS to clean themselves after soiling accident?

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Lifesgood

FWIW, my DD also experienced encopresis in FYOS and into Year 1. The school never offered any assistance or comment at all. I don't know whether they honestly never noticed or just turned a blind eye.

 

I wonder if encopresis/faecal incontinence is a genetic issue. Will have to ask the doctor. Surely I can't have just been lucky with both kids having it?

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Lifesgood

There is a SN unit at the school for high needs children. Some of the high needs kids attend the mainstream classes with an aid. DS is not considered to need an aide. What he really needs is me there with him :cry:

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seayork2002

I am sorry if this is OT but I do wonder if we sent our kids to school when they have had a toilet accident the school would be concerned (yes rightly so!!!!!) but they are not allowed to assist/are concerned if it happens there???

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3babygirls

Quite seriously, I'm surprised at the horrible tone of this post. How about we try for a little empathy?

 

No, it's obviously not a great job. It is however a medical need for the op's son. I'd expect it to be a school nurse reponsibility, because teachers can't readily leave the classroom. Can he be excluded from public school on this basis? I'd hope not.

 

No horrible tone in my post, just very honest. It's a difficult situation for everyone!

 

Teachers have enough stuff to deal with let alone a child that cannot toilet himself. Obviously I feel sorry for the kid, but what about the teacher? Imagine if you had a dozen kids in a class that had this problem!

 

When is the teacher supposed to deal with this? In class, leave 20 kids by themselves?

 

Small primary schools don't have a nurse.

 

There needs to be a higher level of support. The child needs an individual assessment and to potentially apply for funding for a teachers aide to care for him properly, this is much better for both the student and the teacher.

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Winging it Mum

I’ve had a child that has had issues with toileting & by the time we started school, we did have what I think was a continence plan in place & Novita helped organise this with the private school he was going to. He's never been eligible for extra assistance either.

 

Technically they didn’t have to clean him up but most times they would & asked our permission if we were ok with that. I always kept a spare set of clothes in his bag, early on two sets & supplied the office with gloves & wipes.

 

Same thing applied to OSHC. We would receive the odd call to come and collect him if it was really bad. They also would initially take him to the toilet every two hours as part of the plan- I think he was lucky he had a gorgeous lady take him most times & they never made him feel bad about having an accident. Unfortunately he just didn’t recognise the signals to go.

 

So, fast forward now, he’s nearly 10, there are still issues at times but becoming rarer. Even with wet accidents (which are normally due to his balance/co-ordination issues at the urinal) they will help him change or at least supervise him doing it himself now. We also have bought a watch which we have set reminders on to go to the toilet at recess and lunch, after school etc and that has helped.

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JBH

A friend has a similar issue. It was a tremendously stressful issue. They have ended up with an arrangement with a nearby GP practice whereby the school calls when the boy needs help, the practice nurse attends and bills the parents. It required a working with children check and some other paperwork, but seems to be workable, if not ideal.

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~Bob~

I don't think any 5 year old (even if they were NT) could properly clean up after a soiling accident. I think it's silly to expect them to.

 

If he regularly comes home smelling of pee, I would consider sending him in a pull up. That doesn't solve the cleaning up issue though. I can understand why the teacher can't do it, but I think they need another solution. I think I'd put a call into the incontinence organisation and ask for help. I'm very surprised that he doesn't qualify for some sort of aide. It's not fair. What does the principal say? Surely this isn't the first time they've dealt with an issue like this?

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Slapdasherie

Telling someone to homeschool because their child has a medical need is exactly the same as telling parents of a child in a wheelchair that they have to go to a specialist school because the public school isn't wheelchair accessible. The law says that all children are entitled to be educated in mainstream public education. It's not acceptable on any level to exclude people from their community based on medical needs or disabilities.

 

I agree it is not ok to exclude kids with medical issues.

 

But I also don't think it is ok to send a kid who regularly soils and wets himself off to school without some kind of plan being in place.

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Riotproof

 

 

No horrible tone in my post, just very honest. It's a difficult situation for everyone!

 

Teachers have enough stuff to deal with let alone a child that cannot toilet himself. Obviously I feel sorry for the kid, but what about the teacher? Imagine if you had a dozen kids in a class that had this problem!

 

When is the teacher supposed to deal with this? In class, leave 20 kids by themselves?

 

Small primary schools don't have a nurse.

 

There needs to be a higher level of support. The child needs an individual assessment and to potentially apply for funding for a teachers aide to care for him properly, this is much better for both the student and the teacher.

 

Actually, it wasn't obvious you felt for the child at all.

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Weirdly Sane

This isn't a "toilet training" issue. OP's son has ASD and there's a frequent correlation between gastrointestinal issues, encopresis, continence issues, sensory challenges with using the toilet, and ASD.

 

I would have thought the combination of ASD and the encopresis would justify access to an aide, even if he doesn't need aide time for academics.

 

My DS - who happens to have ASD - used the accessible toilet all through primary school. In the earlier years his aide assisted him.

 

This just makes me so angry on your behalf OP - if the teachers are not able or willing to assist there needs to be a formal plan to manage his medical condition and if that necessitates an aide then the school should jolly well make sure he has one.

Edited by Weirdly Sane
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Lifesgood

Thank you for all the ideas and suggestions, it is good to have some inkling of what to do next. DS doesn't need a full time aide, he is managing really well most of the time. He just needs someone to take him to the toilet regularly and clean him up if he has an accident.

 

Not the teachers - no one expects teachers to have the time to do this.

 

But as to 'who' can help, I am very interested in all the suggestions put forward.

 

Is it wrong to suggest my DD would be part of a 'plan' she is there at the school and would willingly accompany him to the parents/visitors toilet at recess and lunch each day. She will help him wipe himself and clean him with wet wipes. She is 10 y/o and such a kind and caring girl. She helps him a lot at home. He calls her mini-mummy.

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Expelliarmus

The teacher cannot be expected to do it per their work agreement. They may agree to do it but cannot be made to do so. In my state it is something we are unable to do as it is outside our responsibilities and is done by the SSOs (aides).

 

That said, a student with a disability has an education plan and toileting should be on there if required. You can access aide time for toileting if needed. I personally know children who have aides for toileting due to medical needs. I have more than one myself right now.

 

But it has to be documented, on the Education plan and so on and so forth. Homeschooling is not the answer. This is something the child has a right to as part of the DDA and can be accommodated by aide time, funding specially applied for.

 

I hope someone can help you with the process in your state.

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premmie

I have a DS also in his FYOS. And this makes me sad, though I can see that it isn't the teacher's job to clean him up. I would seriously look into how you can get an aide (or similar) into help him. Surely if it's a medical issue - surely you're entitled to some sort of assistance.

 

I was wondering reading these posts, if a Yr 6 girl for example go her first period - would they also refuse to help with that. I remember that happening in my primary school. Teachers couldn't have been more lovely and helpful.

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Oriental lily

I think interrupting a siblings studies to attend a younger child would need to be a very very last resort .

 

Op I think you need to realise the education system has an obligation to your son to manage this medical condition so he can attend a mainstream school . His needs don't seem that great but he still requires a comprehensive care plan .

 

Even if it's an aid normally in another room that can be borrowed for these times to attend your son .

 

Don't let them brush you of!

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Lifesgood

I guess the problem is that DS appears fairly NT. He is really smart, sociable, adorable. OK, the last bit might be just parental bias. But I almost feel like sometimes people are rolling their eyes at me a bit about his ASD. Hi difficulties are, for the most part pretty subtle.

 

As I said, I have provided the school with all of the relevant documentation from DS's specialists describing his difficulties but they have not offered any additional assistance, and when I asked what was available they said I would have to arrange whatever additional help DS needed myself i.e. speech therapy (he doesn't need it any longer), OT (I take him to his appts) and that is pretty much it. His dev paed has recently assessed him and is satisfied with his progress, just suggested a laxative and continue with the encopresis treatment plan for now.

 

I'm going to make an appointment with the GP to discuss it some more to see what else we can do to help him.

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FeralZombieMum

FWIW, my DD also experienced encopresis in FYOS and into Year 1. The school never offered any assistance or comment at all. I don't know whether they honestly never noticed or just turned a blind eye.

 

When you enrolled your DD - did you let the school know she had these issues? (or did they only start happening once she started school?)

 

It could be that you were expected to make the first move - ie inform them of her issues, perhaps with a letter from a doctor?

 

I wonder if encopresis/faecal incontinence is a genetic issue. Will have to ask the doctor. Surely I can't have just been lucky with both kids having it?

 

Must be really hard. Have they been tested for coeliac disease, or have you looked into it being a possible food intolerance?

 

There is a SN unit at the school for high needs children. Some of the high needs kids attend the mainstream classes with an aid. DS is not considered to need an aide. What he really needs is me there with him cry1.gif

 

I'm not in NSW, but did you and the school fill in a form to apply for an aide when he was enrolled?

 

DS doesn't need a full time aide, he is managing really well most of the time. He just needs someone to take him to the toilet regularly and clean him up if he has an accident.

 

Sounds like he would benefit from an aide then. My DD's aide went on excursions and school camps with her too - so something to consider that your DS might need.

 

But as to 'who' can help, I am very interested in all the suggestions put forward.

 

From what I've read over the years (and what's been posted) - is that it's partly an OH&S issue. It's also a child safety (is that the correct term?) issue. I know one teacher, who 25 years ago, had a student with soiling issues. This was on a small campus, with 1 staff toilet - and they received funding to build a shower so that if the child soiled themselves, they were able to clean themselves up by having a shower and changing into some clean clothes. My memory is a bit hazy, but I am pretty sure the 3 teachers on the campus were instructed they weren't allowed to clean this child up, only the aide could (the aide was only there part time). If the child did soil themselves, the parent had to be called, or the child had the option to shower - but the 3 teachers (all female) weren't allowed to be in the room with the child (due to child safety issues).

 

Is it wrong to suggest my DD would be part of a 'plan' she is there at the school and would willingly accompany him to the parents/visitors toilet at recess and lunch each day. She will help him wipe himself and clean him with wet wipes. She is 10 y/o and such a kind and caring girl. She helps him a lot at home. He calls her mini-mummy.

 

I don't think that's fair on your DD. She might be willing now, but might not be in a couple of years. She does sound very caring though (well done to her!) but I would be worried about the psychological toll on her later on.

 

Ask the school what needs to be done in order for your DS to have assistance. What reports do you need from the doctor, what forms need filling out, what assistance is available etc.

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FeralZombieMum

As I said, I have provided the school with all of the relevant documentation from DS's specialists describing his difficulties but they have not offered any additional assistance, and when I asked what was available they said I would have to arrange whatever additional help DS needed myself i.e. speech therapy (he doesn't need it any longer), OT (I take him to his appts) and that is pretty much it. His dev paed has recently assessed him and is satisfied with his progress, just suggested a laxative and continue with the encopresis treatment plan for now.

 

I'm going to make an appointment with the GP to discuss it some more to see what else we can do to help him.

 

Perhaps post in the special needs section, or ask your local support group (if there is one), what the process is in regards to getting some funding for your DS. (our school was clueless with DD1 and it took a change of Vice Principal to get the ball rolling with funding - she was Gr 4 by then!!)

 

I am not sure how NSW works, and here in Victoria the public system is different to catholic, which is different to private - but my understanding in Vic public schools, is that funding doesn't have to be 100% allocated to an aide, it can be used for other things to help the student.

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Mummy_Em

I agree it is not ok to exclude kids with medical issues.

 

But I also don't think it is ok to send a kid who regularly soils and wets himself off to school without some kind of plan being in place.

 

But surely the onus is on the school to make sure they are able to be inclusive.

 

OP, I'm not really surprised that your child doesn't qualify for aide time, that is in line with my experience of how aide time is allocated (or not) in WA. I have found Catholic schools a little more flexible and willing to provide assistance where there is a need, rather than as dictated by the voluminous red tape.

 

Is it worth finding out if there is a shower somewhere on site? He must be in FYOS, is there a classroom EA who could take him to shower and change, with verbal prompts from outside the bathroom? The chances are probably small that there is a shower on site, but might be worth asking.

Edited by Mummy_Em

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liveworkplay

At my children's primary school, a note is sent home on the first day of kindy which address toileting expectation. For at least the 1st term, all new kinder children are t take a spare change of underwear/clothes + a plastic bag for any soiled clothes. Teachers will assist if your child has one toileting accident. But parents are also encouraged to ring principal or teachers if they anticipate toileting problems. If it happens more than once, the teacher/principal apparently ring the parent to discuss options. I don't know what options are discussed as this hasn't happened to us, but it must happen frequently enough that the school is proactive about it.

 

From a practical point of view, I can't imagine teachers can simply leave the classroom whenever a child has a toilet accident. A once off, maybe. But if it happened regularly, I think the parent needs to contact the school to discuss a contingency plan.

 

Having the odd accident in the FYOS is a lot different to having a medical condition. My DD just cannot feel the need to poo until it is literally coming out. It is not because she is lazy or not TT, it is a physical medical condition. Luckily our school and her teacher in particular are on board with myself and our GP and pead to help the issue. I would hate to be hauled to the Principals office to explain myself.

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liveworkplay
Teachers at DS school aren't "allowed" to help children with accidents. This was stressed to us at orientation and through all the enrolment stuff etc. If a child is unable to clean up a toileting mess then perhaps a mainstream school isn't the right environment for them.

 

 

I have no words with the lack of comprehension and compassion of some posters about this issue. Encopresis can be more prevalent in children with certain diagnosed conditions, but it can also affect any child at any time (as it has mine) She is 6 and tries her best to clean herself and nine times out of ten she does very successfully. But sometimes she does need help and I would be devastated if her school and the families that attend made her feel embarrassed or ostracised because of it.

 

I am so mad I just cannot adequately get my point across, sorry.

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basset

What liveworkplay said. huge empathy fail here today.

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EsmeLennox

The school needs to work with you to find a way to support your son with his toileting needs. There needs to be an IEP put in place. Poor little kid. In WA it is educational aides who assist children with toileting where needed.

 

And quite honestly, I am flabbergasted by the lack of empathy and compassion from some posters in this thread. Far out, this is a 5 year old child with special needs being spoken about.

 

People obviously have no clue that plenty of young kids have toileting issues in FYOS and most of them aren't children who also have special needs!

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DontKnow2015

You mentioned there is some special needs classes. Could you ask one of the teachers who you have to speak to in the school, to develop a management plan.

 

When we did our application process in both Qld and NSW we had to meet with the principal to help organise the additional funding.

 

Toileting is a trigger in most application processes to ask for additional funding. My daughter only became toilet trained during her second year of attending school.

 

Your little man has ASD. He should still have an individual education plan even if he is coping well to deal with issues like this. They don't always do them straight away often they will let you settle in before finalise them.

 

It obviously won't be a teacher but an aide to help him in an organised and structured way.

 

Good luck....

Edited by DontKnow2015

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Lifesgood

Apparently he came home with another accident in his pants. I feel like crying.

 

Honestly though thank you for all the kind words and support, it helps so much. And I don't take the harsher comments to heart generally. If it isn't something you've experienced personally it can be difficult to understand.

 

I will make it my mission to get DS some help.

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blimkybill

I am really surprised that many people believe a medical condition could ever be a reason for excluding a child from mainstream school. The Disability Standards in Education state that schools have a legal obligation to provide reasonable accommodation for children affected by disability or a medical condition. It's the law. In the past schools and Kinders may have excluded children over toileting issues, but this is no longer acceptable.

I think OP it's time to request a meeting and ask for a plan. If the school is clueless, i would ask them to bring in whatever kind of external disability support person your school system has access to. Its up to them to help work out a solution. Hopefully that solution will also help your son get on top of his encopresis. Good luck.

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