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Lifesgood

UPDATE post #36: Is it reasonable to expect a 5 y/o FYOS to clean themselves after soiling accident?

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Lifesgood

DS is in FYOS NSW public school. He turned 5 in December and has ASD. He regularly soils and wets himself. We treat him for encopresis (plenty of fluid, a dose of Osmolax each day, regular visits to the toilet to empty his bowels). DD was much the same, minus the ASD diagnosis. Toileting problems seem to run in our extended family. He refuses to poo at school and regularly comes home soiled. Usually it is just a little accident, but yesterday was a full poo in his pants according to his nanny. Today I got a text message from a friend who said she had to go to the office to get wipes to clean him up as he had another accident while she was helping out in the classroom. She said the staff were not prepared to help him clean himself and were going to send him off to do it himself. Thankfully she helped him, and let me know what had happened. He would not be able to clean himself, apart from the lack of maturity he has sensory issues with smell and texture that make it difficult to even get him to wipe himself after a poo on the toilet at home. Usually we can get him to poo when he is at home once or twice a day most days, so he avoids having to go at school. Obviously that hasn't been the case today or yesterday.

 

So my question is - what is it reasonable to expect of the staff at school with regard to helping DS with toileting accidents?

Edited by Lifesgood

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bubbatime

My son is 5 and without sensory issues and I think he would have a hard time cleaning up after himself if he'd had this happen to him.

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literally nobody

I'd say not but it's a hard one.. Even in my kids kindy they need to be fully toilet trained before they start or they can't go. I can relate tho... my 5 year old ds had problems with pooíng.. stemming from having extreme constipation as a toddler.. it's VERY frustrating, as he would literally hold it for a week.. and then boom. he wasn't constipated by 4.5 (as i'd adjusted his diet) so i knew he was holding it in.. this year he started prep and i can't believe what has clicked but he's been going regularly in the toilet nearly every 2nd day!

 

does he need to be on Osmolax everyday? my dd was on it for 2 years and i found if i gave it to her every 2 days it made her poos more solid.. not sloppy..

 

dd (in year 2) once or twice had the runs at school and whilst she made it to the toilet - they were kind enough to provide her with wet wipes to clean herself up and called me to pick her up.

 

would you consider sending him in a pull up? so it's not all over his clothes?

 

hard one hun, you have my sympathy for sure.

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steppy

I thought the rules were they had to be able to clean up after themselves before starting kindy/school?

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Guest canadianmum

That makes me so sad, I am glad your friend was there to help him.

 

I am pretty sure that is the practice with some of the teachers in our school too.

 

They are told to clean them selves or they are sent to the front office and the parents rung.

 

I pack clean knickers and socks, a ziplock bag and some wet ones for my DD but she can manage herself.

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Riotproof

Surely this is a special need issue, isn't it?

 

I'd expect a typical 5yo to be able to wipe up a typical poo, but this sounds way outside that realm. Can you send him with some wipes and plastic bags to put them in?

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Moonl!ght

Hard one, as how can the teacher leave the classroom?

 

Like the PP's idea of a pull up.

 

I might not be popular for suggesting this, but is there any way he can start school next year when he has a bit more maturity behind him? I know December is a tricky date but you might be able to get special dispensation given the circumstances. After all a lot of Jan boys would start when they turn 6 not 5.

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3babygirls

Honestly, I really don't think it's up to the staff to wipe the bottom of a primary school child on a regular basis.

 

During class time a teacher cannot just leave to clean up a student as they have duty of care to to 20 other odd students in the classroom.

 

Primary school teachers are not early childhood/daycare teachers and I really don't think it is there job at all. I don't know if he should be in a mainstream school setting if this is a regular issue, or he should have a carer with him. It's really not fair to the teachers.

 

Even in pre-schools most state that they must be toilet trained.

 

 

Edited to add: I'm a high school teacher that has taught a little in primary school and I would not be impressed if this was a student of mine. I get that accidents happen, but this is routine.

Edited by RSA
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SarahBelle48

It is a tricky one but my understanding is that one of the signs of being ready for school would be that they do not require assistance with toileting. I don't think its really in the teacher's job description to be cleaning up poo unless absolutely necessary. They have 20+ kids in the class, they can't be cleaning up every kid after going to the toilet on a regular basis.

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EssentialBludger

I understand why teachers wouldn't want to clean it, I wouldn't either. What's the solution though? Not sending him to school? It's a public school and he has a right to an education. It's all good and well to say you just can't send them to school if they're not TT, but at what point does that become impossible?

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AggyW72

I think this is a medical and special needs issue.

Have you advised the school and requested help?

We've pulled DS out of school this year to do Distance Ed and one of the reasons is to be able to get his impacted bowel resolved. He is 10 with ASD and doesn't even know when his bowel leaks.

Added to his anxiety it is all too much for him to manage.

I'd establish some kind of protocol with the school if you haven't already. They need to step for medical issues.

I'm glad your friend helped him :)

Edited by AggyW72
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Sentient Puddle

I am very glad your friend was there to help. Unless your child had an aide in the classroom then the teacher can't leave the classroom and help your son clean up after himself. What was your understanding of what would happen in this instance? Had you previously discussed it with the school? If not then the time is now so you know what to expect when it happens again.

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Oriental lily

With teachers I think it's an OHS issue . It's certainly not in the job description .

 

However I think a support aid would be something if a consideration if you feel this might not be a couple if isolated cases and might continue further in to schooling . I know however the funding and the length of time to get an aid can be infuriating .

 

I remember DD1 wet her pants in prep . Even though she had a change of clothing they rang me to come down to help her . I can not imagine any teachers helping a ' bigger clean up with poo ' if they refuse to help with a wet incident.

Edited by Oriental lily

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steppy

I understand why teachers wouldn't want to clean it, I wouldn't either. What's the solution though? Not sending him to school? It's a public school and he has a right to an education. It's all good and well to say you just can't send them to school if they're not TT, but at what point does that become impossible?

 

Well you can always home school these days.

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Riotproof

Honestly, I really don't think it's up to the staff to wipe the bottom of a primary school child on a regular basis.

 

During class time a teacher cannot just leave to clean up a student as they have duty of care to to 20 other odd students in the classroom.

 

Primary school teachers are not early childhood/daycare teachers and I really don't think it is there job at all. I don't know if he should be in a mainstream school setting if this is a regular issue, or he should have a carer with him. It's really not fair to the teachers.

 

Even in pre-schools most state that they must be toilet trained.

 

 

Edited to add: I'm a high school teacher that has taught a little in primary school and I would not be impressed if this was a student of mine. I get that accidents happen, but this is routine.

 

Quite seriously, I'm surprised at the horrible tone of this post. How about we try for a little empathy?

 

No, it's obviously not a great job. It is however a medical need for the op's son. I'd expect it to be a school nurse reponsibility, because teachers can't readily leave the classroom. Can he be excluded from public school on this basis? I'd hope not.

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Julie3Girls

I think you would probably find that the teachers aren't actually allowed to physically help the child clean up in that situation.

And that is actually without the consideration that they can't leave a class of 20 other children unsupervised.

 

My friend had this situation with her child, and when it happened, they would ring her.

 

If it is likely to be an ongoing issue (medical or special needs related), you might need to talk to the school and find out if there are other options. Maybe there might be aide options?

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EssentialBludger

Homeschooling is not an option for many people. For various reasons. Most parents I know have to work full time.

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Julie3Girls

 

No, it's obviously not a great job. It is however a medical need for the op's son. I'd expect it to be a school nurse reponsibility, because teachers can't readily leave the classroom. Can he be excluded from public school on this basis? I'd hope not.

 

Not every school has a school nurse. None at our primary school.

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Oriental lily

Riot proof our school if over 500 students does not have a nurse . Some of the office staff have first aid training and that's about it .

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~river song~

If it's a regular occurrence as you say it would seem he has additional needs requiring an aide. Or being in a mainstream school at least for now may not be a suitable environment for him.

It's not part of the teachers or staffs job to assist children with toileting. My mum works in a school and the protocol they've followed seem to be standard these days.

It was great your friend was willing to assist, but yes normally a parent would be summoned to do so I believe

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Lifesgood

Thanks for all the replies.

 

DS is academically ahead of his cohort. He is so ready for school in every other way that it would be ridiculous to hold him back another year for this reason alone. He hated daycare and would not want to go back there, even if I could get him a spot which is a joke in itself.

 

I agree it isn't feasible for the teacher to assist him, but my friend who took him to the office thought that the first aid staff might help him.

 

I'm so grateful my friend was there to help. On a day that I am not at work I would of course be able to go to the school to sort him out. On the days I am at work it would take at least an hour to get to him to clean him up, which seems a bit awful. It breaks my heart to think of him being left like that. Not that he seems to mind though. He appears almost oblivious.

 

He has a change of clothes and plastic bags and wipes, but the fact remains that there is no way he would be able to clean himself, and even if he would (which he won't) he would get poo everywhere which would then be a hygiene issue for everyone else.

 

I guess I hadn't really thought through what the protocol should be, we have been working hard to get him over this stage and felt we were almost there. The school has told me they can provide no individual support for DS in regard to his ASD and anything we require would need to be arranged by us.

 

What options could there possibly be? I can't give up on him going to school just due to the occasional poo accident. The first few weeks of term were no problem really, he did come home smelling of wee most days but then I recall DD was the same.

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Lifesgood

Deleted post as I was having an oversensitive rant.

Edited by Lifesgood
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Lifesgood

Why are we asked to send a change of clothes with our FYOS kids? I assumed it was in case they had an accident and needed changing?

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literally nobody

when did you start toilet training? is it possible on weekends/holidays to put him on every 20 mins? i had to do that until my ds got sick of it. i persisted but it took days for it to finally sink in.

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seayork2002

I can only say that although my son has no known diagnosable issues personally I did not expect him to be able to do this at 5 - 7ish yes.

 

As for the 'average' age I am not sure - you can buy flushable toilet wipes but I am unsure about using something with chemicals in that area - but then i guess they must have chemicals in toilet paper

 

I do not believe it is a teachers job but I would personally help any child clean themselves for accidents.

 

My son has one accident at school but I am only a 5 min walk from work to school so he was only in his pants for 5 mins after they called me.

 

I guess you could put a face washer in the bag with a change of underpants?

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