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Sandy1902

Thoughts on the vlad laws and Neman

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Sandy1902

What are you thoughts on Newman, and his way of putting things recently

For example http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/20772559/premier-compares-bikie-laws-to-chemo/

 

 

What are your thoughts on the laws? Do you understand them are just going with the flow?? Do you think they are going to far?

 

(I am interested in hearing both points of view please don't turn it nasty)

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Sassy Dingo

I think these laws are absolutely reprehensible. I don't know why people aren't rioting in the street about them. I've read the vlad - it motorcycle gangs aren't mentioned at all. People don't realise that these laws can affect them. People's rights all taken away in just 17 pages of legislation.

 

EG; I have a mother's group. Let's assume that my mother's group is meeting at the park. Now, my baby clobbers a toddler that is also at the park. Toddler's mum is very upset, becomes physically abusive. Toddler's mum and I are now having a punch up in the park. Police are called, I'm charged with affray. As I am a member of an association, I committed the offence of affray while taking part in the affairs of the association - the VLAD can come into play.

 

Having no prior criminal convictions and being an otherwise good person of the community, I get community service. With the VLAD I would get a mandatory 15 years on top.

 

Now, it is possible for me to rebut the presumption that I am a vicious lawless associate by showing that crime is not a core purpose of the mother's group. This means that I would have to go to trial to prove this, engage legal representation for the committal hearings, pre-trial work and the actual trial. My friend (a junior lawyer) charges out at $500 an hour. So we'd be talking hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

You'd think it would be easy to prove that a mother's group isn't a hotbed of criminal activity. Think about the reverse though - how can you show that a group is a criminal group? It isn't like they'd have a charter with crime being one of the objects of the organisation. Even outlaw criminal gangs aren't involved all the time in criminal activity, they would still go on rides together, fix their bikes, hang out together in general. So they clearly have other purposes - how is this any different from a footy club for instance when a few of the blokes head out on the weekend, get drunk and get into fights? If you can't tell me how you prove that a group is a criminal organisation, then you can't DISPROVE it either.

Section 3 -In this Act—association means any of the following—

(a) a corporation;

(b) an unincorporated association;

© a club or league;

(d) any other group of 3 or more persons by whatever name called, whether associated formally or informally and whether the group is legal or illegal. (my emphasis)

Section 4 - For this Act, a person is a participant

in the affairs of an association if the person—

(a) (whether by words or conduct, or in any other way)

asserts, declares or advertises his or her membership of,

or association with, the association; or

(b) (whether by words or conduct, or in any other way)

seeks to be a member of, or to be associated with, the

association; or

© has attended more than1 meeting or gathering of

persons who participate in the affairs of the association

in any way; or

(d) has taken part on any 1 or more occasions in the affairs

of the association in any other way.

 

Section 5 (1) For this Act, a person is a vicious lawless associate if the person—

(a) commits a declared offence; and

(b) at the time the offence is committed, or during the

course of the commission of the offence, is a participant

in the affairs of an association (relevant association);and

© did or omitted to do the act that constitutes the declared offence for the purposes of, or in the course of

participating in the affairs of, the relevant association.

(2) However, a person is not a vicious lawless associate if the person proves that the relevant association is an association whose members do not have as their purpose, or 1 of their purposes, engaging in, or conspiring to engage in, declared offences.

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Acidulous Osprey

Absolutely reprehensible and terrifying legislation.

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.Jerry.

Far reaching implications that have the capacity to damage a lot of lives more so than cure society's ills. Frightening.

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purplekitty

I hope the LNP gets smacked hard in the Griffith byelection in Brisbane in early Feb.

 

I hope voters see it as a chance to also send a message to Tony Abbot and his cronies about how they feel about their despicable actions since they were elected.

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.Jerry.

I hope the LNP gets smacked hard in the Griffith byelection in Brisbane in early Feb.

 

I hope voters see it as a chance to also send a message to Tony Abbot and his cronies about how they feel about their despicable actions since they were elected.

Somehow I doubt this. :(

Griffith is fairly conservative in many areas. Also Bill Glasson (LNP) is a popular man who is well regarded. Nice man, unfortunate that his politics is LNP. :(

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Ritaroo

These laws have nothing to do with bikies. It's a way to destroy the union movement in the state. The bikies are just an easy target to start with. religious groups will be next then unions.

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Acidulous Osprey

I think they will go after the unions before they even consider religious groups.

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Datrys

I don't pretend to understand the legal niceties (and am watching it from afar in Victoria).

 

But already I have heard concerned rumblings from religious groups that they will be targeted. I don't know whether that's paranoia or sound assessment of the situation.

 

I have to admit to feeling slightly conflicted. I'd like to see organisations which foster criminal activity held to account. But I can't see mandatory sentencing as being a good way to deal with anything.

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Pearson

He is a nasty, abusive little man. He exerts his power in so many ways. He IS the dictator he denied being yesterday in the Courier Mail. He is specifically targeting a bunch of people at this stage, and he will move onto his next target shortly. He has already started this process.

What I would like to know is how the hell he thinks it is ok to remove people's livelihood beause they are friends with someone who is a bikie? (referring to the current intent of not renewing people building licences etc)

I really dislike this man, and need to step out of this conversation before I start ranting.

 

Bring on the next state election, hopefully he is a one term wonder.

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purplekitty

I feel I must be missing something.

Why would CN be targeting religious groups and which ones?

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FeralSingleMum

Terrifying. People who love them have no idea that it includes everyone not just bikies.

 

The heavy way the police are handling it is also scary. A bikie was filling up his bike at a petrol station he had 5 patrol cars called and kept for 40 minutes then let go with no charges the he was pulled over again by a 6th car moments later for "a random drug test". It's not just bikies they are pulling over but every day bike users who don't have any affiliation with any bikie group.

 

I know it's up to them to uphold the laws that are passed down and they don't choose what laws are but they are being so heavy handed.

 

Story for the bikie: http://motorbikewriter.com/21st-licence-check-motorcycle-rider-case-harassment/

 

I agree bikies have done some terrible things but they do some great things for the community too.

 

 

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Datrys

I don't think it's just CN (although do you trust him to embrace minority religions?), there is also talk of other states adopting these laws if Queensland's use of them is seen to be "successful."

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Sandy1902

 

For those is brissie There is a peaceful process happening Australia day near Roma station. If there are those interested.

 

 

Personally I've had a few friends who were for it. As they thought it only effected bike members after getting explained to what it actually ment where horrified.

 

I honestly believe these laws are effecting the every day person more then They will ever effect the 1% of bikers or who it is geared towards.

 

If Newman put more penalties in place for abuser, rapists coward punches etc he would be more in favour

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Ritaroo

I think though you also need to be careful blaming the police and by that I mean the regular police at the suburban stations. They really are just doing their job. Of course it's excessive but that are their orders and they have to follow them.

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Walkers

I agree bikies have done some terrible things but they do some great things for the community too.

Surely you don't mean the criminal bikie gangs? 'great things' don't make up for murder, torture, dealing in weapons & drugs, sexual assault and disrespect of women in general, violence in public places?

 

*If* the intended target was only hardcore bikie gangs and innocents had nothing to worry about then I wouldn't have a problem. This is impossible to guarantee so it is a slippery slope indeed.

 

I'd rather see the govt allocate more money toward the police force so they are better equipped to fight organized crime. From what I know of the policing of organized crime, bikies are not at the top of the chain, there are other groups that are more concerning. Would be good to see police put a dent into all these groups but I can't see the new laws doing that.

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whatnamenow

They worry me, but then the whole idea of CN has worried me since he has run for election. Living in a regional area of qld having someone who was a former Lord Mayor and couldn't see past Caboolture to the rest of the state worried me.

 

And he has proven me right. Regional QLD what regional QLD?

 

As for the VLAD laws I've seen some of the downsides of it. I've seen usual charity bikerides cancelled, seen more than the usual number of bike riders pulled over on the highway. It hasn't affected my family yet but i'm not stupid enough to think that there wont come a time when they wont.

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vonmax

In my limited understanding it appears to be a group of hastily cobbled together laws with far reaching ramifications/implications,not least of all concerning the involvement of state in the judicial system. It is cause for huge concern. They seem to have been passed without any of the normal checks and balances that go into major law changes(I wont call them "reforms") and from what I can see with very little input from the various professionals and judiciary who I thought would/should have been very involved.

An article by Fitzgerald on the new law changes mentioned demagogues and I reckon this is exactly what CN is.

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FeralSingleMum

Bikies often do toy runs, charity runs, volunteer in the community and do all sorts of good things.

 

Like I said I know they've done terrible things but lets not tar them all with the same brush. There are extremes to all groups of people. Making sweeping generalisations don't help anybody. There are so many different biker groups not just the ones in the featured in the news.

 

There is also a group of bikies in the USA that protect the children and families that have been abused by sex offenders when they get out on jail. All on their own time.

 

 

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whatnamenow

 

 

There is also a group of bikies in the USA that protect the children and families that have been abused by sex offenders when they get out on jail. All on their own time.

 

There is also this group in Australia too. Well they are in our local area.

 

Came back to share though what my 11yo said when it came on the news tonight.

 

'WHAT??!! That's stupid! that's stupid mum'

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