It seems pretty blatant to me that a routine with twins is imperative, but I just don't know how or what to set as our routine.

My babies were born 9 weeks prem and spent nearly 5 weeks in hospital. We have had them home now for 3 1/2 weeks. On discharge from hospital they were 2 and 2.2kgs, they now weigh 2.6 and 2.7kgs. We have had lots and lots of issues with b/feeding which we have mostly managed to conquer now (tho we do still have our moments!). Upon discharge from hospital we were on a strict 4 hourly feeding routine (or more frequently if they demanded). This meant waking them up every 4 hours and forcing them to feed which seemed to cause more problems as often they'd be sleepy and they'd get frustrated and it'd take 2 hrs or more to get them both fed, I'd get stressed which would affect my letdown and so the vicious cycle went. As of last week the Paed has agreed to demand feeding. This of course means that there is no such thing here as a routine. It's just a case of feed them when they want feeding - this is mostly 3 - 4 hourly, occasionally as frequently as 2.5hrs. This seemed OK for a few days but now I feel like it's just not working.

I have been trying to feed them separtely so that I can concentrate on each of them whilst feeding, both of them are still not good feeders and need a lot of prompting and help to attach well and stay attached. Usually tandem feeding ends with all of us in tears and frustrated! However, when I have both of them screaming at me to be fed at once I do try to tandem feed, sometimes it works, most often it doesn't (it used to work OK till we started the demand feeding for some reason). It still takes a long time to feed them. They usually do 10 mins each then need a "rest" (playing in rocker or on mat), then another 10 mins then more play and will more often than not want another 2 - 5mins each before dropping off to sleep.

Mostly the girls go down to sleep fairly well and will usually sleep for about 1.5 - 2hrs. I am still trying to get them to learn to sleep longer at night with minimal success. However, a couple of times a week each of them will have a turn at being impossible to settle at night (never during the day) and will be awake and very upset for about 3 hours. I find that I can't put them down to bed unless they're virtually asleep already which is usually achieved with a few minutes on the breast and then they're really dozy, I wrap them and then to bed. I know this is probably a really bad habit I'm getting into.

What's a reasonable routine for us (girls are 8 weeks old/39 weeks corrected)? Should I be adopting specific times for feeding and for going to sleep, or should I keep to being really flexible for the time being till they're perhaps a couple of months old? The Paed has specified that we can't go for more than 5 hours overnight between feeds with them (hahhaaaa! I wish they'd even do that!), and atleast 4 hourly during the day.

I'm sorry if this is jumbled. I'm surviving on 4 hours of sleep taken in 2 - 3 stints!

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This message was edited by butterscotch on Wednesday, 16 November 2005 @ 6:47 PM

Hello!

OK, im no expert at all but in my experience those early days are very unpredictable in terms of feeding. So its really hard to set a routine. They could be going through growth spurts or if youre having feeding problems - they may not have got a full feed the time before so they start demanding one earlier next time...

I must say, the problems you have mentioned were exactly the same as mine!!

I didnt tandem feed cos I would end up in tears as well. We had heaps of problems with attachment and milkflow (too fast!)

I wrote down everything - i found this helped. Soon you will see a pattern forming and then you are able to adjust feeding times so that they dont both demand at the same time (cos its SO STRESSFUL when that happens). I gave and hour between the two, then it became half and hour and now its more like 15 minutes...but its taken 4 months to get feeding problems sorted out!

Sleeping: I was always told to patt, shh them to sleep - this didnt work for us! I am still finding the best way to settle them to sleep and at this stage it seems Connor still insists on being rocked to sleep.

Sorry for raving on without actually answering your question!! But I guess my advice is to just go with the flow and see what happens..dont worry about spoiling them at this stage cos they dont know how to 'associate' this with that yet.

Hope that helps...

The pat/sshh does not work at all with our two for getting them off to sleep. The only thing that helps if they're in a definite unsettled period is to hold them and rock them till they'll finally go to sleep.

I'm thinking I need to try and increase the amount of time between feeding them, weird thing is tho is that one wakes up then you can guarantee that 10 minutes into that feed the other will wake up on her own.

Hi Heather, I am glad to see that Emily and Kaitlyn are putting on some weight it is fantastic especially considering feeding issues. You are definately doing something right.

With regard to routine with Tayla and Jake we fed them every 4 hours 24 hours a day till they were about 6 weeks old when we left them one night to see what would happen and they slept through (amazing). So we continued to feed them 4 hourly during the day and demand fed at night. This routine did not change until we dropped to three bottles a day which they now have before each sleep.

As you know my two were formula fed from day 4 so I have no knowledge of BF at all and routine with regard to this, but thought I would let you know what worked for us. Also mine were born at 37 weeks so I think prem would make a huge difference aswell.

As for sleeping our two dropped off to sleep alot during a feed so we used to put them straight down. But they seemed to learn very quickly that when we wrapped them it was bedtime. We have always done feed/sleep/play which I know alot of people do differently but this worked for us. We also found rockers to be our best friend, rocking one with each foot. This is great for the leg muscles by the way (lol). But yes there are times when the only way you can get them to sleep is rocking and this wont change for a while but it is only short term and it does get easier. They were most unsettled during 5pm and last feed at about 10.30-11pm. During this time they used to be in the rockers at our feet. We did this till they were a few months old. And, luckily this habit wasnt hard to break. Yet again, it worked for us.

I hope things settle down soon and you all manage to get some sleep. It does take time but you will work out what works best for you and stick to it.

Take care and you are doing an amazing job.

Ali

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This message was edited by TwinMumAli on Wednesday, 16 November 2005 @ 8:00 PM

Hi Butterscotch,

I don't actually have much advice for you as your situation is a lot different to what mine was but I just wanted to say that you are doing such a wonderful job breast-feeding two premmie babies. I tried to breast feed my boys but ended up giving up after the first couple of weeks. I know how hard it is (and my boys were born at 37 weeks and not nearly as small as your girls). But I just wanted to say I really admire you and hang in there!

I know in the beginning I found it so hard without a predictable routine- life is an absolute blur. Again I don't have much to offer as at 6 weeks our paed said to restrict the boys to 4 hour feeds as they were on formula and putting on too much weight! But to do this we introduced dummies (much to my dismay as I vowed not to use them) but they were the best as the boys needed the comfort sucking. Anyway, this isn't that relevant to you (I am rambling- sorry!) but the point I'm trying to make is that once you do get into that 4 hourly routine (and you will) its so much easier to plan and have structure to the day. We didn't really get it going till recently (the boys are now 4 months) so it does take time but it will happen.

I now know I will be feeding at 6am, 10.30am, 2.30pm, 6pm and a dream feed at 10pm (or round about).They play after each feed (except the dreamfeed) so that they are up for up to 2 hours at a time and then generally sleep until the next feed (with some settling required and an arsenic hour between 5pm and 6pm!) In the first couple of months I never dreamed I would see the light and have such a great routine.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on but just wanted to let you know that the routine will happen gradually as the girls get older and more used to the world and that you are doing such a great job!

Love Em

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Hi there

My girls are a bit older, but I demand fed them till they were around 20
weeks, & only started with a 4 hourly routine then (but we never did a
dream-feed). All I can suggest is to keep trying to tandem feed, as it
saves so much time! I also woke the other one up if one twin woke to
feed them together - otherwise I would have got no sleep at all. If
you're near a daycare centre like Dalwood or Tresillian, go there to get
help with feeding both at once (I found the football hold worked best
for us).

It will get better!! You may just have to accept that the routine will have
to wait, as some babies just won't cooperate until they're older. Mine
didn't!!


Good luck!!!!


Nynke

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Hi there Butterscotch, I really feel for you. My 2 were 8 weeks prem and I had all the same issues as you. I read so much about what I should be doing and went to a sleep school when they were 2.5 months old which didn't really help. I was so hell bent on getting them to sleep with patting only, I would sit on the floor next to their cots patting for hours.

In hindsight I think that at that early stage all that patting and obsession with routine caused me more stress than anything else. If I had to do it all again (God forbid!) I would just do whatever I had to to get them to sleep and not worry about the patting until they were 5 or 6 months old. I don't think they were old enough to learn anything prior to that time and just needed lots of comforting.

this is just my personal experience. My girls have just turned one now and sleep really well. I also went to a mother baby unit when they were 5 months just so that I could have a rest and the patting technique at that stage really started to work.

Good luck, and if you are struggling, TELL SOMEONE eg. your maternal and child health nurse or call a mother baby unit. Don't try to do it alone.

Mill. (mother to Scout,4, Indie and Shari born 4/11/04)

Excellent news on the weight gain, Heather.

We struggled so, so much with routine. Until they were having solid feeds at around 7 months (birth age) my girls breastfed every 2.5 hours during the day, and several times overnight. They had bad wind problems, and seemed to be constantly uncomfortable and unsettled. They would only catnap during the day.

All this added up to a complete lack of routine. Even if I got a routine established for one, it was impossible to get the twins in sync. I felt like such a failure for not getting into a routine, but eventually I had to give in and accept that they would sleep when they wanted to sleep, and feed when they wanted to feed and I would have to live with it.

It took them until 12 months of age for them to settle into a regular day sleep pattern (2 x 1.5 hours) and now life is (comparatively) blissful. I know (almost) exactly when they will sleep and exactly when they will eat. I now get a break longer than 20 minutes during the day! It is wonderful!

So, the moral of my story is, it is fantastic if you can get into a routine that works for you and the girls , but DON'T beat yourself up if it doesn't happen. Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, it will just happen when the girls are ready.

Narelle

Edited to add: I think a strict night-time bedtime and routine can be really helpful. My girls started to sleep better at night once we started putting them down between 6.30-7.00pm following a bath & a feed. Before we started this, they were going to bed whenever we did and had no real concept of an overnight sleep. Looking back, it must've been quite confusing for them and I'm just sorry it took us so long to realise this. This is the only piece of routine we were successful with!

This message was edited by Radler on Friday, 18 November 2005 @ 10:11 AM

OMG! I am NORMAL!! This is EXACTLY how I feel. I'm currently getting 3 - 5 hours sleep overnight taken in 3 stints, usually I get about an hour at one time, sometimes 1.5 hrs, very very occasionally 2 hrs. I just can't seem to sleep during the day to catch up. If I could get them to feed quicker I'd be half way there. I reckon they get so overtired with trying to feed that that's why they get unsettled. I also think Kaitlyn often has wind pains as she just seems really uncomfortable but nothing we do seems to help. She just eventually falls asleep after a few hours of sleeping 5 mins, crying 5 mins etc etc.

I feel good knowing that most of you have said that you didn't/couldn't set a routine this early on. To me it seems like an impossibility but everyone keeps raving on about how I should have a routine so I thought I must be doing something wrong. And trust me, if it were obvious to me about how I could set a routine I'd be doing it as I am very much a routines kind of person.

We have started the "bedtime routine" for the last few days, not that it's showing a whole lot of success yet. I have even given in to giving a comp feed of fortified EBM (30mls of EBM) at night to try to get them to sleep a bit longer (Paeds recommendation), plus the extra calories won't go astray to fatten them up a bit . We've done this for 3 nights now. The first night they went 4.5 hrs till the next feed (OMG! I slept for a WHOLE 2.5 hrs at one time!), but since then they're still waking up after 3 - 3.5 hrs. They seem to be feeding badly a lot more than they're feeding good ATM. I've started feeding them separately so I can concentrate on each of them as they seem to feed better when I can do that. Feeding them tandem has often ended with us all in screaming tears! Emily almost refuses to feed tandem for some strange reason. Trouble is, no matter how hard I try to stagger their times for waking up to be fed, even if I wake one up myself, the other will almost always wake up within 15 minutes! It's uncanny and makes things really hard. Narelle - you feed your girls separately don't you? How do you manage? It's killing me to have to listen to one of them in the rocker (and all the rocking in the world does nothing to calm them) screaming till they're holding their breath! It's so horrendous.

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Hi Heather

Gosh it is hard isn't it! I am just coming out of that 3 month fog following the birth of my boys, but remember very clearly that feeling of sleep deprivation and the feeding nightmares (as noted by my many desperate posts here on EB!!). I am a routine person too, and found that just when I thought we had something going- it would change! It usually related to the boys waking for more feeds. I feel that feeding and sleeping are closely linked. I also could not feed tandem no matter how hard I tried- it does not work for everyone. When feeding one I would have the other in the rocker. I got away with this because Jackson would take a dummy (Hayden would not so he always fed first), so in went the dummy for Jackson and we rocked away. It took me about 45 min to feed each so after doing both plus nappy changes, I got 1 hr of sleep before they woke for the next (3 hrly) feed. By 6 weeks my boys were really not gaining enought weight (my supply was not good enough despite feeding 7-8 times a day), so a started comping with formula. It was really hard for me to do this as I am very pro-breastfeeding (I am a dietitian, so have had it drummed into me!). It was right for us though, as the boys' gains were great from then on and I was much less stressed! We are now in a more predictable routine with the boys feeding 5 times a day and having 1 big sleep (6.30pm until 1am). I am basically expressing for them (plus making up the difference with formula) as Jackson refuses the breast. Hayden still has a breastfeed in the morning and we really enjoy it (I never thought I would after all of the dramas). This all started at about 13 weeks, and now Jackson has started waking for two night feeds again so I think I need to up his volume during the day.

Anyway, that is another story- but I hope that it helps to know that you are not alone :-) I am feeling much more normal and able to think straight now that I am sleeping more, it will all happen for you too soon.

:-) Lindy

This message was edited by lindys on Friday, 18 November 2005 @ 5:29 PM

Hi Heather, yes it is horrible listening to them cry so hard when they're hungry. But mine only fed for 10 mins or so, so the other one never had to wait too long. We also bought a battery operated swing which we only used at feed times. This was more effective than the rocker at soothing them. Also, when I worked out that 2.5 hours was their schedule, I used to start the first feed before 2.5 hours was up, so they never became frantically hungry. Also, as they grow older, they seem to learn that they will get fed eventually, so they learn to wait more patiently. Separate feeding was so much easier for us, despite some stressful moments!

HTH

Hi Heather,

Your poor thing the sleep deprivation is just so hard.I could never sleep in the day either. I think I can remember how stressful those first months are but the female brain has a wonderful way of forgetting all the bad bits . I too found that tandem feeding was more trouble than it was worth, we all ended up upset and milk spurting everywhere! I found feeding the girls one after the other was much more successful, it is hard listening to one cry as they are hungry. Sometimes I would feed who ever was crying the loudest for say 10mins then feed the other for 10 mins then go back to the first twin for another 10min. That seemed to work when they were very little. As they got older they would feed so quickly that it wasn't a big deal (max of 15 min each!!) I would also feed as soon as I thought they were hungry, one day I did 18 feeds (9 each), it felt like I had my boobs out all day!!!
The part of a routine that worked in the early months was the bedtime one, the rest of the day was totally played by ear until they were about 4 or 5 months.

Anyway you are doing so well so far with the BF. Hang in there.

Beth

Sophie and Daisy 9/4/03

Hi There

When we left hospital, our 3 were on a similar 4 hourly/ demand feeding routine.

We tried a 3 hourly routine in the daytime & then stretching 4.5 hours in the night, but it didnt work for us cause, like you it took forever to feed them if they were woken.. so i asked QE11 if they could help us & they told us our 3 were too young for strict feeding routines at this point & to wait till they were 6 months old (not adjusted)

At the moment (our routine) is 3-4 hourly feeds in the day (whenever they wake) & then somehow we managed to stretch them in the nights. If one of them wake, basically I will feed the one that has woken & then when finished I will get the other 2 up to keep them together. I have found that cause thay are given the same amounts of food at this stage (100mls) they all tend to wake up roughly at the same time.

Generally the patern looks like this, but does vary...I think the key is making sure they have enough food to get to this point & making sure you wake them at 7am. We also give them extra milk in the 9pm & 2am feeds so they will do the distance, other wise they wake early.

7am 10.30am 2pm 5.30pm 9pm 2am(ish)

Also, maybe you can try topping them up with a bottle (if you dont mind it) to help them stretch overnight.

Also, you said that your girls like to play...I would have thought at 39 weeks equivalent that they were too young for play cause mine have only started playing now & they are 14 weeks old (about 6 weeks adj).........When they play do they have their fists clenched???? If they do, they could be over tired & this might be the cause of your feeding problems & disrupted routine etc....

Edited to add: Just had another thought: If your bubs are taking a long time to feed & then only sleep 2.5 hours at a time, they might not be getting enough to go the distance & maybe your supply could do with a boost. Maybe try some fenugreek tablets or motilium..I am using motilium at the moment cause I am having a similar prob & i have found that with the increased supply it is much quicker to feed cause the let down lasts longer.

Cheers, Lilymurray

ME 29
DH 28

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This message was edited by lilymurray on Saturday, 19 November 2005 @ 2:02 PM

Will I ever sleep again?????????????

Arcgh! If it's not one being unsettled, it's the other! I am feeding them 3 hourly during the day but they still want to feed 3 hourly at night.

Heather mine fed at night until they were 6 weeks old and they were bottle fed and not premmie.

Just try to get as much rest as you can during the day, even if it is just laying on the couch all day and watching TV. Get as much rest as you can.

You are doing a fantastic job, I didnt even last past day 4 breastfeeding so I am in ore of you. It will get easier. I promise!



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