So how are they supposed to discipline naughty kids? This is nonsensical and may lead to an exodus of stressed out childcare workers - then what?

I totally agree, how is my child going to learn that it is naughty behaviour if whilst under my supervision she gets in trouble yet at day care she is allowed to do it?

Ridiculous.

I'm not familiar with childcare centres - is time out used often? I'm a teacher of primary school children and occasionally have used time-out-like strategies but not overly often. I have no early childhood experience though.

I agree it is ridiculous, but was just curious if they were actually legislating necessarily here.

This cannot be a new development??
I did Family Day Care about 6 or 7 years ago, and I remember back then, when Quality Assurance was coming in, that we were no longer permitted to "exclude" a child from an activity for behaviour. So if little Jimmy was throwing the paint, we were not allowed to tell him "No more paint for you!" - we had to find another way to "redirect" him so he did not experience exclusion.
And Time Out was the biggest form of exclusion of all!

So you may as well ask EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN YOUR LIFE to go and get a federal police clearance before coming around to have a cuppa!

Jeez-louise! What a load of beauracratic bull! *headdesk*

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I totally agree, and I also don't think a 2-minute time-out is the same as removing a child from a learning or even a fun activity for the duration.


Both our daycare and school use time-outs. At school, the child gets 2 warnings:
"That's 1, you need to ........."
"That's 2, what do you need to do?", then if they still haven't done whatever they were supposed to do, they spend a short time on the thinking spot to think about what they should have done before they rejoin the activity.
Since he started kindy, we've used the same process, which works really well with my 3yo in particular.

At daycare, they pretty much do the same thing, but because it's not as structured, I don't think they necessarily have a single designated spot or chair. I've seen one of the carers sit a child on the floor beside her for pushing another child over, so the child wasn't segregated or isolated from the activity or the other children, although for a short time she also wasn't participating. (They also follow-up with discussion and apology in this sort of situation).

IMO, if parents have an issue with how discipline is conducted in their daycare or school, then they should discuss it with/write to the director/principal or remove their children.

R

I guess they are encouraging positive reinforcement and distraction instead of negative reinforcement and exclusion. We are talking about places who look after babies and toddlers, aren't we? Not using time out doesn't mean there are not other strategies you can use.

It probably comes down to what is and is not defined as time out. Maybe this is just about extreme versions of the technique or inappropriate applications of it. Hard to tell from that one quote.



And this is what it comes down to in the end. I use a centre that does things how we do it at home, whatever that may be.

Doesn't sound like the law refers to removing children from an activity, just from removing them entirely from where the other children are. As long as it's clarified I think it's reasonable.

I am a early childhood educator (as we are supposed to be called now!). We try to "guide" children's behaviour which isnt always easy! Sometimes a time away could possibly be the most effective way to deal with certain behaviours. Children are all different and respond in different ways! Can be stressful at the end of the day when you've been dealing with 8 two year olds and you are the Room Leader and you're on your own! That said I love my job and feel it is a privilege to be caring for people's most prescious little treasures.

Obviously there has been extensive studies into what works best for the child so I can only see this as a positive thing. "Tired, stressed-out" child care workers is an entirely different matter and should be addressed accordingly.

Can someone post the link where these quotes are coming from?

Thanks

It's in the OP, I missed it the first time round too.

ohh ta, lol silly me!

It's probably worth reading the non-bogan version of the article before you get too upset: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-a...x-1226032959467

Actually, it doesn't sound as though there have been any real studies into what works best. It sounds more like someone's decided that the child being disciplined shouldn't be left out of ANY activity, which doesn't sound like discipline to me. I use "time out" all the time with my child (anywhere between 0 - 5 times during the day) depending on her behaviour and mitigating circumstances and I expect daycare to do the same. She isn't harmed in any way by "time out" and it tells her that what she's done is wrong.

If you're using time-out up to 5 times a day, it obviously isn't working! There are other ways to teach a child and while you may be happy to have CC use time-out, other parents may not. So what's fair?

I'm pretty sure these guidelines aren't picked out of thin air from any Jack off the street; although both articles are lacking in their explanations on how the decisions were made.

Oh god i think I need to find a new profession!!! Time out isn't just for a punishment but allows an angry child to cool off and go back to enjoying activities!!! This is going to lead to unhappy carers and unhappy children!!!

It's not used that often but often enough! We always give 2 warnings with the 3rd being time out for there age plus a minute! So if a two year old is having a temper tantrum he would get 3 minutes in time out to cool off...

Which is what our centre does - by using time outs (its a small centre and they tailor where possible to what the parent would perfer - as long as in their guidlines) however timeout for us is quiet effective and usually the only thing that works (other than smacking which when it has been used - about 5 times all up over all the kids - however this is not for the child care to do and they are not allowed to do anyway.)




You clearly don't have a naughty child, I have used time out more than 5 times a day sometimes and all for different bad behaviours. Sometimes warnings work, sometimes positive reinforcement, soemtimes time out and sometimes none of these work but taking away a big chunk of what a lot of parents use when kids are at home could perhaps confuse the child.

I disagree here actually. If you regularly had your neighbour over whilst looking after the kids then yes they should have a check done. Just as I would expect a long day carer to have a check performed on anyone regularly in contact with the children.

If you are having people over often enough for it to be considered 'regular' one might argue you probably aren't watching the kids as closely as you should be.

I don't think five short time outs a day are at all unreasonable for some children at some ages. A time out of a minute or two to calm down and regroup for a two year old could certainly be necessary five times in a whole day of running around playing.

I'm pretty sure what's fair is a CC being upfront about their policy and the parents being able to pick what they are comfortable with?

It is absolute rubbish! I would love to say more but the friggin' logic behind it is so irrational that is simply cannot be argued with.

Having a "Naughty corner" has not been standard practise in any quality daycare for a while now.

Anyone who has done a Certificate III or Childcare diploma in the last few years is familiar with a variety of techniques more suitable in a childcare situation.

This is nothing new.

so it teaches the child 'oh thats alright if you didnt play in an acceptable manner, you wont miss out, we will get you to do another fun activity'

great technique.

what happens when they get in the real world and break the rules? Umm no you still have to go to goal. (but i was taught to do something else, not really be punished)

My interpretation of this belief (that time out in a child care/ group setting is inappropriate) is that it is a form of humiliation for a young child. They require positive guidance - ie teaching the children what they are meant to be doing, modelling to them and providing positive feedback. Time out can also hinder the child/carer relationship.
I believe time out in a home is a completely different scenario because the child has unconditional love from their family members - and discipline in a cc centre cannot be compared to discipline in a home setting.

See I don't have a problem with people who are regular visitors having criminal checks, the carer is being paid to care for my children not have the neighbours over every day drinking cups of coffee.

And this is the reason I left the child care industry 12yrs ago. Sooooo many 'cannot' do's for the Childcare worker that it is beyond ridiculous. Sorry, you are not allowed to say 'No' to Johnny when he whacks a child over the head with a block, you are to redirect him to another activity whilst explaining in a round about way why he shouldnt have done that, but all the while keeping it light & airy & still manage a class of thirty 4yr olds. Oh & let's not forget the 'inappropriateness' of referring to your group of children as the 'Green Room' to try to call them all back inside from outdoor play for morning tea. We are not encouraging their individuality by referring to them as a group name, therefore you should call out their names individually. All got a bit too much PC for me.. That & the $20k Per annum pay packet for a 50hr week for a 22yr old.

Hahahaha oh crap that is funny.

Wait.

I'm sorry, Ruby Tuesday, I'm not laughing at you. That's just so sitcom-level silly.

I knew what you meant la di dah

Ok. I admit, I have wicked trouble reading things and absorbing them, so please excuse my lack of knowledge.

But where does "exclusion" end? When I was having a particularly hard time with DS (and only getting advice to just smack him one from my family), I asked them what they do with babies who were having tantrums (he was in the nursery). They told me that if the child cannot be calmed in their chair or at their activity, and couldn't be redirected (because sometimes a child is just gonna spit chips), then they were taken to a high chair, given a cup of water and "talked down" from their tantrum (for however long it takes). This was done for the health and safety of the child and also the other children.

Under these new rules would that not be allowed, because I can tell you, that technique was freakin awesome for my son.

I do feel really bad for child care workers/ early development educators. Their job is really freakin hard, and the rules are always changing and becoming so confining. Not to mention the hideous pay, I can see why so many people see it as just not worth it.

The daycare that Miss-3 goes to has a "thinking circle" (round mat on the floor).

It uses the same principle as the "naughty corner" that we use at home.

If the child is doing something they shouldn't - esp if they are hurting / hitting another small child - they go to the "thinking circle".

I think it's a great idea. *ahem* Miss-3 has been sent there occasionally

my almost Miss -3 is a regular for time outs in day care and at home (which as timeout is usually a last resort - depending on behaviour - this is not something to be proud of) Positive reinforcement, behaviour direction just simply does not work for her she will just repeat the bad behaviour ASAP, naughty corners/time outs usually work (its just she will go and do something else naughty) its not humilation its that she can see other kids having fun and she realises does realise that if she had been good she could have been doing that too (we - day care and us - do speak to her about her bad behaviour after the punishment is over) I like that our day care has a policy that is much like our own as she is getting the same punishment no matter where she does the bad behaviour. I think if your child is not a naughty child then you may see the time out as humilation but when your kid is the one hitting other kids, and bitting and making life misserable for their day carer and other children you like to see the time out stay

Oh holy carpfish...

Time out is not a necessary part of childcare any more than it is a necessary part of parenting.

Not using time out does not mean children are allowed to get away with things or that bad behaviour is tolerated. There are other strategies used.

My children attend a preschool which does not use time out. They successfully manage 60 children aged from 3-5 every day.

I don't know what the definition is in the context of the guidelines. However if being "talked down" involved having attention from a carer, then in my children's preschool that would be acceptable. What they don't do is "exclude" the child from both the other children and the carers (by being ignored).

I like that. Ban on naughty corner sounds fine to me. Why is changing the rules for professional care of children a problem? Things change all the time in my work place, some for the good, some stupid. When those changes are based on sound research or evidence then I'm quite happy to change. Attitudes and knowledge change over time, why shouldn't childcare practices if they are in a formal workplace setting? What you do with them once you are home is different. It's been ages since the old "good or bad" labels (aka good or naughty) were thought to be a good idea. Theories and knowledge of infant and child mental health have changed/developed/advanced. I think it is obvious that most of us just aren't aware of these things and fall back on past practices, on the things that our parents did with us. I doesn't mean there isn't an alternative to the "naughty corner", it isn't that black and white, this or that. Who do you think these changes are made for? For your/our children. There is often more than one way of managing anti-social behaviour in children out there, and those practises that are based on shaming the child ("naughty corner") will not be the way of the future. I for one am happy with that.

i have not read all the posts but as a cert 3 child care worker this new law really makes me feel like im going to backed against a wall when i go back to work.

postive reinforcement does not always work and child care workers are not even supposed to say no to a child so what are we ment to do? it is stressful enough dealing with playing up children and i cant imagine how this new law is going to make anything easyer for anyone.
children need boundrys and they need to know that if they break them them there will be consuquences (sp?) postive reinforcment has only ever worked if used with other methods of careering.

btw there has always been a rule against the corner but time out while still being part of the group was allowed to settle unruley children.

its silly almost stupid rules like this that makes me not want to go back into the system.
we are stressed and pushed to the limits already and all this is gonna do is cause more stress.

Ive worked in daycare for over 10 years and none of my centres have ever used time out anyway so it won't make a difference.

When I was in family daycare we were only supposed to use distraction and redirection, the centre DS goes to now does not use time out or naughty corner methods and I have never used these behaviour management techniques as a parent.

TBH if I went to a centre that had a ''naughty'' corner I would think they had fallen behind in their traning and practices.

Emergent Curricilum sp? and postive behaviour management techniques are where it's at right now

Does this new set of regulations include changing the ratios in NSW to 1:4 for under 2's instead of 1:5, I hope so because 1:5 is not fair on babies or carers IMO (DS centre has a 1:3 ratio for this age group which is optimal IMO).

And we wonder why naughty kids go on to be bullies and criminals?

You are so easily riled ccwa. Did you even read the article you posted? And all the responses from people suggesting many centres stopped using these techniques with positive results a long time ago?

I really don't get how you go from this to criminals andbullies. It sounds like you've been watching too much garbage journalism.

Well at school they still have the red spot.

At least at the school my kids go to. IF kids don't have boundaries, and think the whole world is about amusing them and taking their mind off their naughtiness and tantrums, that's the attitude they'll take to the world.

No I don't watch TT or ACA at all.

I have worked in the same centre for the past 18 years, we stopped the "naughty corner" years ago.




I strongly disagree with this comment. I think most of the decisions/ guidelines/ regulations ARE made by
.
Quality care has gone out the window, it is now ALL about paperwork. If some of these pencil pushers actually spent a day working in a centre, they would soon see that the amount of paper work us CCW's do is absolutely ridiculous.

Well I've seen them from time to time and that sort of post would fit right in.

I think you a forgetting the world of strategies on the scale between exclusion and amusement. Tactical ignoring is just one example. Natural consequences are another.

It also sounds like you missed the part where the group advocating for CCW's avoided hyperbole and asked for clarification about what separation does and does not mean. I find it difficult to pass judgement on something
without clarification of the final details.

This is basically what I was going to say beachflower. The home environment is very different to care, and therefore expectations surrounding behaviour management are to be different also.

"Time out" as a method of behaviour management has not been in practice in quality care for some time now. And was in fact discussed as an 'outdated' practice while I was at uni.

I have personally never used time out in my 11 years in the industry. And yes, I have worked with toddlers, as well as children up to school age. (I am a qualified preschool teacher)

Time Out is the exclusion of a child for a set period of time based on age.

Giving a preschool child time to calm down is NOT time out, it is meeting their emotional needs at the time. Once a child has calmed down, they are then in a state of mind to address the issue with the support of a teacher.

If a child is not at the stage of being able to reason through, their actions, redirection is a more appropriate method.

The best way I have found for behaviour management within a group (up to 30 children) is prevention! This involves not only appropriate role modelling from adults - no shouting, etc.. but a rich learning environment with adequate materials to allow for children's patience levels, but not so many that they are not given the opportunity to work on their social skills (turn taking etc...).

This is why quality care, and qualified staff are so important in early childhood.

Time out and exclusion for the carer's then. I can imagine the uproar then. Something has to give. Kid's need clear guideline's to feel secure. This is ridculous. I am very thankful that I do/did not need to use daycare.

As a PP has said......It makes me tired.

What about not excluding chldren at the tender age of 3 says lack of clear boundaries and behaviour expectations, WW?

There are myriad ways to achieve this but I won't bother to add since I think ritten said it so well.