Hi. I haven't posted in here for a while, but I am at the end of my tether and hoping some of you more experienced multiple-mothers can give me some advice.

My twin girls are 7 months old and they absolutely suck at sleeping, especially during the day. They have been very unsettled babies right from the beginning.

Night time: usually sleep from 10pm-8am, waking for 3 or 4 feeds during that period.

Day time: feed every 3ish hours, and during each cycle only sleep for about 1/2 hr. When they get tired I try putting them in their cots and they just scream. I try settling them in their cots if they're just crying a bit, but inevitably turns into screaming very quickly. And once they're too worked up they can't calm down again. Then I end up with two hysterical babies who scream even being cuddled and it can take up to an hour and a half to calm them down again.
This has put me off trying to settle them in their cots (I still try but give up quite quickly if not working).

Now as a coping mechanism I end up cuddling them to sleep which isn't particularly practical with two, and is just teaching them more bad habits.

I feel at a loss of where to go from here. I just feel like it's never going to improve and that I'm just reinforcing all the problems.

I'm on the waiting list for a sleep school but have been advised there is a very long waiting list (been waiting 2 weeks so far, and got the feeling it could be several months). Contacted a parenting centre and left a message but yet to hear back.

Does anyone have any advice?

I don't know what state you are in but in Melbourne there are a couple of public places and the wait list is very long and there are some private hospitals who also have mother baby units and the wait time is a little less.

We also have a publication called Melbourne's Child and in it they have lots of proffessionals who advertise their services and there are usually a few sleep experts who will come out to you and help you with sleep issues. They do cost a few $$$ though.

Have you told your MCHN??? They are linked in with the local area and some councils do have extra support with sleep issues. Also your MCHN can help to get you to the top of a queue quicker if things are really turning bad.

are they ok just to stay awake? if so it would seem easier than putting to sleep.

Is there some helpline you could call and make your case urgent? where about are you?

Thanks for replying!

Twinboys - I'm not in Melbourne. We do have a sleep specialist here, but I haven't rung them yet - we can't really afford it so I'll try other avenues first. I've just spent the last hour on the phone being transferred from one person to the next to try to get some advice. Most of it was stuff I've heard before - putting down when tired etc etc. And no-one seems to think they can help me get any further up the que for sleep school.

Sal - I've tried keeping them up, but they just get more and more tired and cry more and more, and neither will let me put them down which isn't very practical with twins!

Now I'll just have to wait for the parenting centre to ring back and see if they have anything helpful to say.

Thanks again for replying

Try swings - they are good lol

was going to suggest swings too steggles - SNAP

I really feel for you and hope you get some help soon - CRY when you are on the phone to the sleep school - it worked for a mother in my mothers group and she only has a singleton - only had to wait 2 weeks.....

hugs lovely

Hi Tara,

You poor thing - being a mummy is hard work, being a twin mummy is twice as hard sometimes!

Do you have an electric swing or two. Perhaps you could try them getting sleepy and calm in the swing, but before they are asleep transfer them to their cot?

We have a lullabub on one of our cots that gently rocks/vibrates the cot, it doesn't settle the girls, but if they are relaxed it will help them get off to sleep.

Are they on solids? Are they getting enough milk/food?

My babies are terrible catnappers too. I persist with ressettling though as they are sooo cranky if they don't sleep for more than one cycle. I thought the dummy was respnosible for the catnapping, but only one has it now, and she still catnaps - LOL!

Can you get them off to bed a bit earlier, 10 sounds a bit late. The natural time for babies to go to sleep is around 7-8pm, can you some how work in a bath, feed and bed routine around that time, give them a dreamfeed (i.e. EBM or formula in bottle) at 10.30pm and try and get them through to 3 or 4am without a feed??? Just thoughts...

Where are you located? Could you get in a baby whisperer for just a day or so privately to help you? My SIL's SIL in Sydney had someone from Tresillian come to her home - which sounds fabulous.....

Anyway, I hope that helps some??
Michelle

i know this might sound a bit funny, but i re-initiated wrapping my horrible sleeper at 7mths.... i literally used 1.5m of material to wrap twice around him, and wait... PINNED it closed (safety).


seriously it worked to get some sleep for a few months... it got him into a routine, and by the time he got to 9 or 10 mths i used a modified CC to get him settling without me or the wrap. some kids will respond to this. some won't. but worth a try?

I remember ringing around lots of sleep schools when mine were around that age! Thankfully thats 7 years ago now. Don't have any major tips. Sleep school had told me to start controlled crying if I was up for it. I was willing to try but DH wasn't. Anyhow as the girls were in separate rooms I did controlled crying. For one daughter it never worked she'd get too hysterical. I used to just pat her for a little while then let her drift off to sleep. For my other daughter the controlled crying worked to some degree. She was able to settle herself to sleep a little better.

I was very strict on routine thanks to MCHN
up at 7am play/ feed
back to bed at 9am.
up around 10:30 or 11. play /feed go for a walk perhaps
back to bed at 1pm
sleep no later that 3ish (they never did anyway)
play/feed/bath etc
back to bed at 7pm

They'd both wake up again for feeds every 3 1/2 hours during the night

Trust me there were many days this would go out the window

Maybe you could try putting a portacot in another room during the day and see if that helps? Even if one of the girls started sleeping longer.

Do they go to sleep in the pram at all if you went for a walk?

I'd have a chat with the health nurse and see what she thinks.

Hope things settle soon.

Swings - I've got one and it certainly comes in handy. Usually only keeps them happy for a couple of mins though. But that can be long enough to settle one baby if they're nearly cuddled asleep.

Miaandme - yeah they're on solids. One eats really well, the other will clamp her mouth shut and spit out anything that goes in. But I think they're getting plenty of milk - both chubbying up nicely.
I know, 10 is a bit late. I was trying to convey an average of what they do. What actually happens is we feed at about 7, then bath, then feed again at 8 and then put to bed. Sometimes they will fall asleep during the 8pm feed, other times it may take 5-60 mins (or more) to get them to sleep after that. Between 8 and 11 it's pretty variable what happens. On a good night they'll just wake up for a feed at maybe 9 then 11. On a bad night both will scream for 3 hours non-stop. Most nights are somewhere in between. So on "average" I suppose they'd be asleep at 9/10. I don't remember the last time they were up past 11. So then they sleep from 11 til 5ish (every few nights one will wake up at 2 or 3). Then wake at 7:30ish. Then wake at 8/9 for the day.

a new me! - I've stopped wrapping them, but we tuck in their blankets really tight so it holds their arms down, and this helps. I'd like to try modified CC, but I'm finding it impossible to be consistent with the two of them.

Becs - I could try putting them in separate rooms. They don't seem to disturb each other though so I'm not sure it'll help. Also we live in a tiny flat, so there's not actually a 2nd room - one would have to go in the lounge which has a skylight so is very bright. But it might be worth a try. Prams are a bit risky - if I time it right they'll go to sleep. If I time it wrong I end up away from the house with two hysterical babies that I can't settle. And then I have to get back to the house, bring one baby upstairs, put in bouncer, go back down, get other one, bring them up, go back down, put pram back in car, come back up.... and you can imagine how hysterial they both are by this stage!! So I'm a bit scared of going for a walk in general. I can easily go an entire week without leaving my front door.


I got in touch with a parenting centre in the end today and they're going to send someone out on Thursday to see what's happening and they may be able to have someone come out a couple of times to help implement some strategies. Fingers crossed!!

Thanks so much for your advice and support

Tara - have been thinking about you lots - another tip might be to take your girls to a chiro that specialises in bubs....marley came out ear to shoulder and was sooo stiff for months and we called him "high maintenance" as he carried on more than kobe - took him to a chiro and his neck was all out of whack and the stiffness was his muscles protectinng his spinal cord everytime he was picked up..poor sausage...anyways - i know some people are anti these things but it has REALLY helped marley so perhaps a tweek could help your girls too?? i had him check kobe too but told me he was fine and he didnt touch him so you need to find one that isnt "snap-happy" iykwim

Just a thought...
x

I'd second the chiro - I've had two kids that have been really helped by a few visits. Not the cheapest option unfortunately but way better than a constantly screaming baby, in both cases. In the first case I had a car accident while seven months pregnant with DD2, and DS2 was pulled out (of me!) by his head after his brother was born. Neither of them were very happy as a result of their experiences, very colicky and difficult for the first 6 months of their lives. After they'd had a few sessions, they were different babies

Thanks becsj and twinmum+2. I have a friend who also highly recommends chiros. I had completely forgotton about it!
Were your babies unsettled in general, or only at sleep time? Mine used to be unsettled all the time, but not it's only at nap time or if they get overtired. I would've assumed that if it were a chiro problem it would bother them all the time? But maybe not?

My paed rang the mother-baby-unit, and apparently they should be able to get me in in about 2 weeks. And the lady from the parenting centre came out for a few hours today and watched one sleep period. One of my girls did something she'd never done before -just lay in her cot and went to sleep with only a tiny bit of rocking!! But the other one did her usualy scream-her-head-off thing. She had a few good ideas and they worked while she was here. But then I tried the same thing after she left and it was a disaster (probably because I had them both screaming rather than one settlig herself while I dealt with the other).

I have a friend helping tomorrow, then DH home on weekend, then friend on monday. And I'll probably have a few other random family members offering to help a bit, so hopefully I'll manage for another 2 weeks until I can get in.

Thanks again guys

H! I feel for you.. twins and lack of sleep is a life that only those that have experienced it [in some form] can possibly understand. We all feel for you. I think the ladies on here have some great ideas and it sounds like you are on a path to getting some help.
We scored a place at a government place a while back-- and they said they have a set of twins most weeks. so dont worry-- you arent alone! we came home from there with some solid ideas and confidence. it was a bit like a holiday in there-- we didnt have to cook or clean either!!!
Its tough trying to settle one screaming bub but two is hard to comprehend for many who suggest a little light patting or something!!! You are doing a fantastic job.
Just a suggestion... we were told to mention our "issues" to our child nurse [or wherever you go to weigh your twins] as they can access volunteers or some help for short term. we got 6 visits of a couple of hours. might be worth asking about while you are waiting for your spot.
thinking of you. you are doing a top job!

I ended up in the mother-baby unit/ sleep clinic for both DS1 and 2. It was wonderful as they settled the baby and I was supposed to just rest (I was admitted under maternal exhaustion). I second the crying etc. My dr was concerned I was heading down the PND track so that helped prioritise us.

So far, thankfully the twins seem more settled and actually sleep. the hard part is to get DH to follow the routine/rules.

With DS1 I had a private person come to the house. It helped for awhile... until I went back to work 5 months later and DH was stay at home dad. We could claim her services back on our private health insurance, if that is an option. And with DS2 we had a sleep nurse come out from a parenting centre but she was useless as her suggestions related to him being hungry, which he wasnt.

Hope you get some real help soon.

My DD2 in particular was a shocking day sleeper.

One thing that I found that worked for me was putting them together when one or both were unsettled. I still remember the first time I did it even though it was 6.5yrs ago now. I felt really mean but I was desperate and I wrapped up a screaming DD2 and popped her right next to her sleeping twin. DD3 opened her eyes when DD2 screamed in her ear then DD3 closed her eyes again and moved her head slightly towards DD2. They snuggled into each other and slept. From then on I did it whenever I had trouble getting one or both to sleep during the day.

They obviously liked being together and even now we find them asleep in the same bed at least once a month.

I don't believe in babies and bad habits, mine are 22months and I still feed one of them to sleep most nights. Evenually they will go to sleep by themselves in their own cot/bed. IT does mean they rely on you to put them to sleep but I made the decision that I need a good nights sleep and so I was willing to sacrifice my having a night off for a while I fed them to sleep.

Swings are awesome, we used one to make them sleep during the day when they refused to go to sleep. I so shold have used it more but I was so hard on myself and thought i was a bad mother if i used it too much. Now I look back and think too hell with that. Happy mummy means happy babies, so you need to do whatever you can to keep yourself together.

I think the more you stress about it they will pick up on it. I don't know how many times they were sleeping during the day but ours were sleeping 2-3 times a day around that age, 9am, , 12is and then maybe 3ish if they didn't get 2 previous good sleeps.

Anyway, Hope you get there, are you in your local Multiple Birth Club ?? Someone there might have some more ideas or be able to help you out somehow.

Thanks guys
I saw my GP and she thinks I'm starting to get post-natal depression, so I think that has put my slightly further up the list at the mother-baby unit. I still haven't heard yet though.

Feeding to sleep - I'm not really opposed to this, and do it every night with both of them after their bath, and every time they wake overnight. But in the evening I have a second person home (DH). The problem with the day time is being on my own - feeding to sleep takes time and generally the 2nd would just be sitting there screaming while I did the first, and then the 1st would often wake while doing the 2nd. And if I do both at once then I have to just sit there while they sleep (which I have done in desperation a few times) as getting them up off a twin cushion wakes them both back up again.

So I'm hoping to be able to find some other way of doing it.

The person from the parenting centre came again today and we managed to settle them much more easily than in the past. So fingers crossed that things are improving.

Swing - unfortunately they won't sleep in it, and it only keeps them happy for about 5 mins max, and even then only if they weren't too upset to begin with.

Sleeping together - once we have cots I might try this. I did try once with the bassinette but it was just too cramped and they kept hitting their heads on the sides!

Thanks again everyone

Do they take dummies Tara? Can't remember seeing you post if they do or not? I swear, dummies are flipping awesome for times when one is cracking it and you can't get to them straight away.

Sorry to hear you are feeling down - are you a member of your local MBA? I find it helps to be around people who know what it is like! Sending you love

((hugs Tara)) keep us posted on how you get on x

it's weird how other people seem to be able to settle babies easier than parents do?

My mil would settle them by cuddling them to sleep then put them in the cot and say 'look how easy it is?' no crying..nada! but 10 mins after she left, they would wake 30mins into their nap and be unsettled for the rest of the day.

feed to sleep doesn't work because it's just like what you described It's diff if one goes to sleep fine then can feed the other to sleep but 2 at the same time is hard.

at 7mths, they are quite aware. Have they always been like this? could it be teething? i think at that age mac is 3hrs between sleep. They would definitely be tired..put them down and pat...mine were all tummy sleepers and slept really well on tummy. Pat for 4 mins then do the same to other other....usually by the time you get back to the other...they will be asleep.

Thanks everyone. I have been admitted to a mother and baby unit and have been getting a lot of support here. Sleeping has improved, but not hugely. So I am preparing myself for going home with two still-unsettled babies and how to handle it!

Oh Tara, sorry to hear that they are still not settling well for you....

We've been through a rough patch with sleeping too, and its just plain awful isn't it?

The good thing about them getting older is that they need less sleep during the day!

Its so very hard and I don't have any words of wisdom....These are my third and fourth babies, and it never fails to astonish me how different every baby is.....

Chin up....

Michelle

P.S. is there anyway you can get a break from them during the day....I know some wouldn't agree, but is there any chance of you putting them into care for one day a week...????

Hi Tara

I hope your bubs are graduating sleep school at the top of the class and this advice is not needed but one thing I did which I think helped a lot was to blackout their room. At the time I thought it was a load of hooey so rather than spend a lot of money on blackout curtains I used my husband's old night shift trick and just covered with windows in alfoil. One homebrand roll of alfoil and a bit of strong masking/duct tape (its still up 12 months later! ). If they are in a lighter room (i.e when we are on holidays) they are catnappers 30-40mins max but in their dark room they will sleep for a solid couple of hours. Its also really cheap to try and if it doesn't work you have only wasted a couple of dollars.

Hope you are doing better.

PS Everyone, I was thinking we should start a general thread about sleeping strategies for multiples and then see if we can get it pinned. Not sure how we go about getting a trhead pinned - maybe some older hands can enlighten. I know some of the tips on here helped me when babies were figuring out sleep and would hate to see all this wisdom lost in archives

Tara, good to hear you are at the m&b unit.

can I just tell you it took me a good 3 weeks to implement the changes we learnt at the m&b unit here. So dont be disheartened if it doesnt happen straight away, just hang in there and stick with it!

Good luck