Just after a some advice. Our really good friends just told us that they really want to have twins and is looking into doing IVF. They visit us all the time, almost every week and they love our kids, especially the twins. I don't know..maybe that's why they have their heart set on twins.

As far as I know, they have no fertility issues. She did pg a few yrs ago but had an early miscarriage, it wasn't planned and they were not ready. It seems they are ready now...talking about buying a bigger house, changing to a family car etc

I don't think they have really thought it through. It just seems weird to do IVF just for the increased chance of having twins....I am not sure they know multiples is high risk.

Should I say something? what do I say? Dh thinks we should just wait because they may not even do it. They don't usually go into lil details, they maybe have already found out all the info, maybe even getting ready to start.

They love visiting and playing with the babies..they can't get enough of them. But hey don't feed, take them out, deal with tantrums, bath time is crazy, get up at night etc Maybe I am a bad example because I never complain and always praise my twins and the babies are always so fun and good when they are here. I did mention that having 1 baby at a time has a lot of benefits too..can enjoy baby more, can go out more, it's just much easier.

Or should I just butt out? I am usually the type to mind my own business.

It's 100% their own business...I'm not sure why you are worried or concerned about this? I am sure their Dr will outline the risks.

I think if they can afford it and their Dr is ok with it, it's up to them. If they are successful, you might be able to use the whole experience as an opportunity to offer support and help, as you're more likely to know what their hurdles along the way are going to be.

if the onlyreason that thye are doing IVF is for twins and they dont actually need the treatment then i think they are sick in the head and shouldnt be allowed access to it.

if they actually do need IVF to get pregnant they they already have a chance at twins (if they transfer 2 embryos)so they might get what they want.

crankybee- a couple of things...we also did ivf but because we had fertility issues and we r very lucky. Ivf is awful, stressful, emotionally draining. i guess she will know when she experiences it herself but being a friend, I can at least warn her. Secondly, twins is tough..her sh told my dh that they want twins because of us....he said it's tough but they said it doesn't matter..all babies are going to be hardwork.

another reason I don't want to say anything is because they are great ppl and would make great parents and it would be awesome if they had twins too.

robbie - definitely...now i know they're ttc..i have to keep everything so I can let them pick what they want.

mellie- I'm not sure...but they're not sick it sounds that they're doing ivf for twins. I imagine they would have to pay full price with no concessions.

I'm pretty sure that most clinics wouldn't allow them to do this - many now have a policy of only transferring one embryo for first-timers.

I'd be surprised if a GP gave them a referral to an IVF specialist on this basis as well. Though they probably won't tell the truth about their reasoning.

I wouldn't butt in though - up to them IMO.

Oh my! IVF is not something you do unless you have to. No way I would have put myself through all the things I did if I didn't have to.

Most clinics will only transfer one these days and transferring 2 doesn't guarantee twins.

As you would know the whole "wonder" of twins wears thin when you've been up all night with 2 babies.

It seems a bit off to me and an abuse of a technology meant to help those that can't have children naturally - do they realise the cost they're talking about for a lifestyle choice? (I'm assuming there are no fertility issues).

I always said I would love twins....until I had one, and believe me, one at a time is quite enough for me. Maybe they don't realise the reality of twins and you could help them (subtly) see this side of having twins.

That certainly doesn't sit right with me either. Obviously it's none of my business, but as a general WDYT, I would hope that it wouldn't be allowed. As PP's have said, I thought the current recommendation was to only transfer 1, anyway?

Having seen (and grown up with) some utterly adorable sets of twins, I can understand the longing, but it just seems a bit too invasive and interfering with the natural process of things to me.

exactly. Maybe she's just a bit innocent? My Ob only gave us the option of transferring 2 embryos after a few failed attempts. That's why when they told us...I really was a bit baffled and surprised but with my baby brain...I think i said 'oh wow, that's great!' I didn't know what to say. They're so happy, it's hard...we may have come across giving them encouragement.

maybe I should let them babysit our twins for a few days?

maple leaf - I don't know. Maybe they do have fertility issues? it's quite personal so we don't know anything. But she has been pg naturally before and I know she was the pills and stopped recently now that they're ttc.

Would a FS really go for this? Even if they have no fertility issues?

Hiya, maybe get them to read this from the AC section...

link to thread about transferring one or two embryos

I would seriously question the ethics of any fertility specialist who offered IVF to a couple with no fertility problems but just 'wanted twins'. I really doubt they will find a specialist who is prepared to do so. To me, the very idea is just absolutely absurd & ridiculously ill-informed...God, don't even get me started.

As someone who is currently doing IVF - if any friend of mine said something like this to me, I wouldn't be able to stop myself from making my thoughts known. I would basically say that it's an idiotic idea and I hope they are refused treatment. I'd suggest that they try to educate themselves a little more before attempting such an inappropriate & unnecessary scheme.

Is she aware of the higher risk of a twin pregnancy, possible premature delivery?

I think if twins happen then those risks are just managed the best you can, but to knowingly and deliverately set out to have a higher risk pregnancy because you think its cute, is irresponsible.

Maybe she can go for quads or quintuplets whilst she is at it.

What sensible doctor would perform IVF on a couple with no fertility issues?

I understand what everybody is saying but please don't get angry. They're nice ppl.

Original question..

-should I say something or just leave it since they probably won't be allowed anyway. If they are then possibly they do have fertility issues (I know when we did ivf, we told nobody at all because we didn't our family to worry about us but we are not ashamed to tell everyone now our kids are ivf).

- what do i say?

a couple of our friends know. They already have kids and they just think it's funny in a good way. But they don't have twins and never been through ivf.

Sal, maybe you could send them some links, or provide some other information outlining the ethical and risk issues, and explain why most FS's would be totally against it.

I'm sure they are nice people and just don't really have a scooby about what's really involved and why it's a bad move.

They sounds like idiots.

Maybe she needs to read something like this

Firstly - I very much doubt that any FS in Australia would agree to give them IVF on this basis - even if they lied, chances are they would be told to do a clomid / OI cycle before going straight onto IVF.

Secondly - perhaps they have been trying themselves for a while and haven't been able to fall pregnant - ie are genuinely infertile - and are too embarrased to say anything and perhaps using the twin thing as an excuse as to why they are doing IVF????

Just a thought!

I'd say the answer to this depends on your relationship with them, and whether it bothers you at all that they are saying things like this.

Personally, if friends of mine with no fertility probs said this to me (knowing about my own failure to conceive so far even with IVF) I would be very offended, angry & upset, and would probably not be able to continue the friendship without communicating this to them.

IMO, saying something like this to someone who has needed IVF (ie you) displays a pretty shocking level of insensitivity (or is it just ignorance??), which would definitely bother me.

But if you're not bothered by it, and don't have a burning need to let them know how unrealistic & silly their plan is, then you are not 'obliged' to say anything. Leave it to the GP who will probably refuse even to give them a referral to a FS. It's not necessarily your job to educate them, unless you want to.

Thats what I thought

What CC said.

I also think Disisme might be right that they may be beginning to suspect they have an fertility problem, and are trying (in a silly way) to talk themselves into doing something about it.

In either case why not put your friend onto EB and she can read all about IVF and either decide no one would do it voluntarily in a pink fit, or actually move forward and get some treatment if required.

It sounds more like you don't know the full story. There's no way in hell you'll catch me talking IRL about my reproductive functioning socially. It's just not something I do, and as you've said yourself, you didn't discuss IVF with others when you went through it. If they're discussing twins, then my guess would be that they're already pregnant and itching to tell people but have decided against doing so for the moment. It's a totally made up story but far more believable than they're undergoing IVF to get themselves a pigeon pair.

Ooh interesting take on things.

I think your friends are probably very nice people, but rather ill-informed. If they are in Sydney, I do know that Sydney IVF will not put back two embryos at the same time, because not onlybecause of the stress and complication rate, but sometimes one twin is not viable and may disrupt the growing of the other twin. So they just refuse to do it in Sydney. But if you are somewhere else, well I don't know their procedure.

Do these people seriously think IVF is some wonderful journey that ends in the bonus of twins For those of us who have no bloody choice but to do IVF it's people like this that make me sick!!!!! How dare they use precious medical resources. It already costs enough with out those who dont need it using it.

Most of our friends know we have done IVF for #1 and now heading for #2 and if any of those people made that comment to me I'd go off my tree!!! IVF is not for people to have a designer family. This is not America. In Australia I would hope that unless they actually do have a genuine fertility issue that all FS would close the door to them. I find their train of thought completely selfish and I can't even believe that they have said it to you knowing that you have been through it.



I'd be telling your friends to get a reality check. If they are lucky enough to fall pregnant naturally then tell them to bless that child every day and be so damn thankful that they have been blessed with a healthy child.
If like someone else posted this is them brining it up cause they actually have been TTC for a while, then offer them all the support in the world on their IVF journey and as we all know be there for the good times and the bad, and remind them that FS will not transfer two embryos unless required these days. Usually after serveral unsuccessful cycles

I think it is an abuse of technology designed to help people who really need it to conceive A child. It is people like this that make the waiting time for appointments so long

As for what FS would allow it? Most would. Why? Because anyone can go to a Ob, tell them they have been TTC for 12months+, they will do initial tests eg Lap, SA, then give them a referral to a FS regardless of the test results. The FS will then do their own tests and once again regardless of the results they will still move onto IVF. Why again? Because they will label it "unexplained infertility". Simple as that.

I really find it disturbing that people would CHOOSE to do IVF without needing to. I wish I had a fricken choice.

Unfortunately, this is not what I've seen.

These days with people being all "I want to be pregnant yesterday" & "It's my money, do it my way", I've seen quite a few clinics transferring 2 embryos on the first time & even on subsequent cycles after previous success.

People like those spoken about in the OP are the reason why only 1embryo per cycle should be transferred. They think twins are so cute & forget what actual risks can occur.

Octomum anyone.

wow. IVF because they want the (paraphrasing) 'cute little twinsies'

FFS i have never heard anything so stupid in all my life.

this is of course assuming there aren't any actual issues which as previous pp have pointed out there may very well be.

perhaps this is part of your answer. In all the time you have been on EB I have never ever seen you even admit this about your children before. Maybe the image you are giving to these people is that twins are easy to train and sleep all night, can be kept quiet by being in their room, and that controlled crying works within a day. If you only show them perfect children and only tell people how perfect they are then they will get the wrong idea as to what to expect.

Despite all the ethics issues as to whether a FS will do a a two embryo transfer with IVF ( because some WILL do it if asked) I really don't get why a couple that have no Fertility issues would go straingt to DEFCON 4 and do IVF. If they want multiples it is far easier and far cheaper to just take Clomid or Femera or whatever other name fertiltiy drug you can get these days from GPs and even online!

If the woman ovulates, he has no sperm issues then taking these drugs should cause a nice little hyper stimulation cycle, bit of bonking and hey presto perfect easy Multiples!

OP, I wouldn't say anything. Either, they will find out for themselves that they can't just use IVF as they see fit, or they will open up to you about their fertility struggles.
Although, I probably start making a few pointed remarks about how hard twins really are.

Say nothing, just invite her to spend a day with you. Even better, send her to my place at about 4.30 to 9pm.

come to think of it, my friends think it's cute when they're misbehaving. they have actually spent a lot of time with the twins since they were born.

maybe my tolerance is high? but i don't think they're hard, even now.....I do have good days and bad days but overall, I don't really complain that much in real life or on EB. Maybe it's just my personality. I tend to remember the good parts of the day, it's mostly good and I think maybe that's a good thing. Dh keeps reminding me that they're normal babies, that's what they do..it just seems hard because there are 2 of them. You will never hear my Dh say anything bad about the twins ever, I've never heard him...because to him, there's nothing bad at all.

DG - if they wake up it's usually coz they got stuck or lost their comfort blanket. They are great sleepers though night and day. Tantrums started about a mth ago...if they don't get what they want they will throw themselves on the floor and scream..it's lovely . they play with anything but toys, fav game is to ransack kitchen cupboards. But then at this age, when I put them to bed at night, they will give me a cuddle and kiss, say and wave bye bye and a blow kiss and it's all worth it. I can list loads of negatives but I still think there are way more positives and totally outweighs negatives.

they are more than capable of parenting twins but what worries me is the ivf part. they must have fertility issues..no one in their right mind would go through ivf if they didn't have to. It was just such a tiring journey....we did countless cycles. anyway, i've decided not to say anything because they can't really be serious. But i will let her know that if she has any questions about ivf just ask me..if she really has fertility issues, then maybe it's good that looking at us gives them hope?

Sal it's great that your twins aren't difficult for you, or that your perception of the situation is that they aren't difficult. I am sure if you friends spend plenty of time with them, they'd see that they aren't perfectly behaved all the time - there is no way you could have control over that sort of thing. As you say though, the level of responsibility that they have for them isn't the same and it's not a daily thing for them. Same as anybody visiting a friend with a baby.

It shouldn't be suggested that you are responsible for them considering IVF, simply because they are big, grown up people who can make their own decisions on such matters. You don't control their thoughts and perceptions. It's a very unusual decision to be considering and as you've said, you really don't know if they are having fertility issues or not. Either way, they are still more likely to end up with a singleton pregnancy than a multiple.

Most of my friends have decided that twins doesn't look like much fun just by watching me go through pregnancy. I am very positive, and rarely complain, but when they see my huge tummy and my waddle, the story tells itself. I am not responsible for how they perceive the situation, good or bad.

alichris, are you for real? That is just insane of your friends. I am the first to admit I didnt do my research and let the dr convince me to transfer 2 on the first cycle, and hey presto, twins, but man, if I had all the info, there is no way I would have done it. I love love love my girls but getting through the first 6-8 weeks without going insane (and I dont mean that jokingly) was pretty damn hard.

I am certain your friends are going to get a very rude shock when they take thier babies home... its not all sunshine and "double the love"... and I have what I would class as easy babies.

Sal, there's really nothing you can/need to do, its thier decision, and if they can find a dr who will support thier decision, I guess they will go through with it anyway. I would be suprised if a GP would refer them if they dont have IF issues, but then again, maybe they do? I have a friend who would love twins too, but she has a unicorneate uterus, and whilst she may well concieve twins, the odds of them getting to a viable gestation are so small. I love her dearly, and I will never tell her what to do, (she has to use IUI to get pregnant, so there is always a chance since she also has clomid with it) so I just put my trust in her dr doing the right thing.

Hey, wouldn't it be magic if they really all were perfect and easy?!

Sal - I think only you really know the type of friendship you have with these people and whether or not it is appropriate for you to bring the topic up for discussion again. If you think it is then I would, perhaps, respectfully enlighten her to the fact that she may struggle to get a referral to IVF without fertility issues and that more and more it is becoming the norm in Australia that they won't transfer multiple embryos even were there an FS out there who'd actually put her through all the IVF havoc for no reason. Also take the opportunity to tell her some of the stories of the women around here - the higher risk pregnancy, losing one or both babies simply because there are 2 babies, premmie twins and the stress of going backwards and forwards to the hospital to see them for weeks or months - and half of all twins are premmie, permanent damage to their own bodies from carrying multiples, ongoing medical dramas if the babies are premmie, the added stress of 2 babies at once to their relationship and the very real toll that takes on some marriages, not to mention the risks of IVF with things such as OHSS etc etc. You know all the stuff you can tell her. But if there really are no fertility dramas and you don't want to bring it up again with her for now then just leave it be as it may go away all by itself simply because no GP will refer them and/or no FS will treat them.

Hey Sal

Just show her this.


I am the poster child for why people shouldn't carry more than one baby at once. My body is never going to recover fully from the damage it is doing.

After a shocker of a night with my twins all I can say is Noooo! But what can you do, I think your friends will continue with their wish no matter what you say but if they do ask you what IVF was like maybe you could give them a true rundown with no sugar coating.

There is a little bit of mild criticism of you as you have made raising your twins seem very easy but please don't take this to heart. Although our parenting style is very different, in this respect, I am very similar to you, I don't like to tell people IRL any issues that I am having and everyone I know thinks I have been having a fairly easy time of raising mine. This is to a certain extent true, they are great babies and I have a high tolerance and any issues have been quite minor and expected when raising twins and siblings. I also believe it is perfectly alright to put on a "happy" face - it can become very self fulfilling as well.

Seems a bit self-congratulatory and smug to think that their desire to have twins is influenced by seeing you.

That's harsh and uncalled for.

Why on earth did you say that? ---Just nasty.
Just trying to leave your mark on EB?

Oh my FW..how many weeks to go? to think I was once that big...I can't even remember if my tummy was that big..I refused photos from 30weeks+.

Btw, Dh didn't think anything of it! he thought it was great that they would love to have twins....I think he's a bit insensitive to IVF but can't blame him since he wasn't the one who had to suffer and could never understand what I went through.

Doesn't help that I had a smooth pg. My friends were there on Day 2 holding each baby. They didn't spend a min in SCU. I am a bad example really. Although I was lucky, I was worried throughout the pg..quite stressful.

I guess being a twin mum and an IVF mum I can get to a degree this way of thinking. Without going into your friends fertility or lack there of. I know we had a very long and arduous journey before falling PG with our twins.
I had 1 BFP to lose it within the week then a further 7 fully stimmed cycles with more and more different meds being added, changed etc as time went on. As this was 10 years ago were were transferring 3 yes3 embies at a time. Our desire to be parents out weighed the risks of a multiple pregnancy in my innocent mind. I had always said to DH if you want more than 1 child you had better be hoping for twins as I can assure you once I have a child I WILL NOT DO this ever again. We did get a BFP . Our 6 week ultrasound was a roller coaster of emotion, joy at seeing not 1 but2 heart beats, terror that they would find a third, relief they didn't find a third and grief that yet again I had an emby that didn't make it.

I went on to have a complicated, high risk preg that resulted in bed rest at 28 weeks and delivery at 31 weeks and the NICU JOURNEY after. My children have also had long term issues as a result of prematurity.

Years later we did decide to try for a third. We did have a couple of failures then we hit the jackpot. For a brief moment I considered having 2 embies transferred if the stim only res*uted in 2 as I was reluctant to risk one by freezing etc. We were lucky and we had a few so transfered 1 and froze 4 it was a BFN so for my next transfer we chose to have 1 transferred as that was safest. I was 38,had essential hypertension and a blood condition so willingly choosing to transfer 2 was a risk I was not willing to take (though if i had no kids prob would have) I still remember how good it was just to have 1 on board.

I really think it is not your place to say anything, what they tell you and what the truth is , is prob miles apart and they are covering themselves, just because they fell naturally doesn't mean there are no issues as many M/c are caused by genetic issues that undergoing ivf can help get around.

Be there, support them but most of all don't judge them. This is from a twin mum who always hoped for IVF to give me twins. To me twins was a great outcome as the toll the IVF took was huge as well.

It sounds like they are really good friends of yours, and have been involved in your childrens lives from the start. So I think you should just be honest with them and tell them what you are comfortable with. And in relation to asking them such personal questions, I think that they have taken the first step by asking your opinion on IVF for twins, so I dont think they will be uncomfortable with you asking them more questions about why they want twins, why IVF etc. I think you should definitely ask them more questions, so you get the full story, before you give them any advice. I really think they have asked you because they want to talk to someone who has been through it. So if you are comfortable with it tell them your experience, the good and the bad. Good luck.

Sal you AREN'T a "bad" example!! You're allowed to have a straightforward, positive experience without having to be apologetic for it.

You are fortunate and blessed.

FW, Sal means a bad example as to the realities of a multiple pregnancy on the mother and children. She said she had a smooth pregnancy AND take home babies. Bad example as in unrealistic for most (unfortunately).

I love how everyone seems to think that IVF technology is the exclusive right of a certain group of people!

I know what you're saying, but it's not the first time I've seen Sal be apologetic about her twin experience. I just think she should be able to enjoy what she has without feeling bad that it doesn't happen like that for everybody. We all know what the risks are but fortunately it doesn't work out like that for everybody. I totally sympathise with those who do have a tough time but for those who don't, there shouldn't be any level of guilt.

astridcar, this is posted in the "twins, triplet, quads and more" forum. Of course their will be strong opinions

If perfectly fertile people want to do IVF to be the next octomum then that is their silly decision.

I assume you are referring to the IVF gender threads posted in the general section.