Our daughter (4yo) started at a child care/ kinder in February and absolutely loves it. She has mades heaps of friends and cannot wait to get there (2 days a week).
However, a few weeks ago when hubby and I were dropping her off, we stopped to chat with one of the carers and I happened to turn around and catch a male child (5yo) on his knees rubbing his face in our daughters crotch. As anyone would, I called for him to stop it and immediately spoke to the carers about it.
I was told that they would 'speak' with the boy.

Later that day we spoke with our daughter and told her that no one is allowed near her private area and that she should tell a carer or us immediately if it happens again.

When we picked her up this friday she informed us (in the car) that he had done it again.
We are going to speak to the director of the child care tomorrow morning and we have been instructed by the police to contact the education dept also.

This has been quite traumatic for us and we can only imagine what our daughter is thinking. The boy is overly affectionate and very 'in your face' and despite being asked by myself, our daughter and the carers, he will not leave our daughter alone.

Has anyone had this experience before and if so, what did you do? How did you deal with it and who did you contact?

The police? And education dept? Stay calm.

i would be super carefull about how i spoke to dd about it, you need to be carefull you dont form any negitive assosiation with her 'private area' because you may affect her sexual development and future relationships. I would deffinately talk to her about why what happened was inappropriate and how another person touching that part of her body is for when she is older and with someone she loves. It may be hard to be calm about the situation, i know i would struggle to stay calm but i really think getting the police involved is a little ott at 5 it is probibly just exploring sexuality, im not trying to justify when this boy is doing, i would however go out of my way to make sure his parents were made aware of the situation and when you speak to the director i would make it clear that this is not behavior you want your daughter exposed to and maybe request she and the other child were in seperate groups within the kindy...
Sorry about my spelling and grammar im on mobile so it makes it hard

I'm sorry this is happening to you, but seriously, you called the Police on a 5 year old?

What is this world coming to

Did you see the recent thread in the venting by any chance?

She saw it Tokra, she's the one who showers with her underwear on with her 4 year old


Seriously OP I think you need to take a deep breath and chill out for a minute. It's all well and good to be upset about a kids behaviour but calling the police on a 5 year old is way over the top. I have a five year old boy and I can tell you now that he thinks bottoms are hysterical at the moment and I have to constantly tell him not to head butt his brothers backside(generally while clothed but not necessarily ) As far as many kids at kinder are concerned bottoms, etc aren't gross they are hysterically funny and a big joke. I'd be wanting to ascertain exactly why this boy is doing it before involving 'the authorities'

OP, unless you are leaving out some key facts in the story, I think you are overreacting for calling the police. Surely this matter could be addressed within the centre itself. There have been two incidents (well, one that you witnessed, and one that your 4 year old claimed happened) over the span of several weeks, and your daughter LOVES going to school. It doesn't sound as if she is handling this all in stride, and that you & your husband are the ones who are internalizing everything.

I appreciate that you don't want your daughter put in an uncomfortable situation at preschool and you want to keep her from harm's way, but involving the police seems way OTT.

I wish you the best of luck in sorting everything out.

I don't think it was anything to worry about either. I don't even think it was exploring sexuality, some kids are just physical and don't get boundaries very well. I'd be pretty sure that the little boy had no notion that your daughters crotch was at the back of her lap there. If that was my son and you called the department of education and the police about it I would pretty angry. From what I gather from your post, its a normal childhood occurrence and sometimes with 5 year olds they have to be told once, twice, three times and sometimes more before they learn to change a behaviour.

It is not sexual in the sense you are seeing it. He is 5, she is 4, he is not sexually abusing her, he is violating her personal space, something he will have to learn about and hopefully begin to act in more socially appropriate ways.
OTT re contacting the police, really they have other more pressing matters.
Work with the Kinder teachers, let them deal with it.
Sure, just tell dd that she doesn't have to accept anyone grabbing her and touching her in any way if she doesn't want it, ie teach her to say stop, no, don't do that, I'm going to tell the teacher.
Tell her to go to a teacher for help.
I'd not be singling out her private parts in the conversation, talk about being grabbed around the waist, or on the arm, or on the bum, or legs or head, include the whole body so she learns about empowerment but not anxiety about her girly bits.
Tell her some children learn quicker than others the ins and outs of polite and sociable behaviour and that the little boy has still to learn not to grab and push any part of his body on anyone else.

I have to disagree with the PP's. It is not normal for a 5 YO to engage in this sort of touching. He must be getting this from somewhere else - perhaps he is being abused himself and he is acting it out, even if he is too scared and confused to tell anyone. this would also explain why he can't stop himself. Why else would he go for the crotch area, and nowhere else, for this touching?

OP, telling the police (although I would have called DOCS) and education dept is the right thing to do. It may be a small chance he is being abused, but if he is, then how could you live with yourself without doing everything you could do to help. If it was my son being abused by someone else, I would be grateful for someone else picking up on the clues and alerting me.

Now that you've done that though, try your best to protect your daughter from his inappropriate touching. If the centre can't stop him then find another centre. luckytwo's advice on how to discuss with your daughter sounds spot on.

Thank you beigegirl! It was nice to finally read a reply that didn't come across as a personal attack.

Yes 3_for_me, I do bathe partially clothed with my daughter! And I'm so glad I was able to provide you with a chuckle. Perhaps I am a prude for not wanting to subject my daughter to having to view MY private parts merely because she enjoys sharing a bath with me. Perhaps it stems from childhood experiences ... maybe you should consider that before ridiculing people??

As for 'calling the police' being OTT. We did not call the police, we went to our local station to ask for advice. The child care, the child and his parents are unaware of this. We were merely seeking advice from an authority.
Just as we have also not contacted the Education dept as yet.
We think it is only fair to sit and discuss the situation with the director of the child care first and as she was not available today, we shall do so tomorrow.
We probably would not be concerned by this boys behaviour if he was this overly-affectionate with ALL of the kinder kids, but unfortunatley he has singled out our daughter only.

And as for it being natural curiosity, can you seriously tell me that if you saw your son/daughter touch another child inappropriately, you would do nothing? If it is perfectly normal for a 5yo to touch another because it is only curiosity, doesn't that allow pedophiles the same claim? I was only curious what the little girl felt like???? Seriously!

Perhaps I am over-reacting, perhaps by explaining to my daughter that until she is older, her private parts are hers alone, I am being ridiculous. But if my daughter gets through her childhood with the ability to protect herself from predators, maybe it is worth being 'over-protective and OTT'.

To those (luckytwo & beigegirl) a big thanks for the advice. We do plan to discreetly find out from the director and carer if the child has a learning disability such as mild autism or something.
As my hubby and I have both worked with special children, we do understand that for them, what seems inappropriate for us is the only form of affection that are able to display.

For those who think I am a bit of a tool .... yes we are worried about our daughter, we are worried about the other kids in her room, but we are also worried for the boy involved. We do not blame him in any way, we are more concerned about how he has come by this behaviour.

Wow. I'm a bit worried about your dd too. You seriously think she's going to be more damaged by a silly kid pretending to be a dog or whatever than she will be by her mother's own inappropriate ideas about her vagina?

Really OP, I mean this genuinely, I think you need to seek out some family therapy before your little girl starts to think there's something wrong with being a girl and having normal genitals.

What Prizzy said!

Are you serious???? Family counselling??
I have NEVER said anything to her to cause her future problems. We tell our children that touching themselves shouldn't be done in front of other people as it may make the other people uncomfortable to view it.

Do you ladies sit around all day waiting to crucify someone??

Inappropriate ideas about my vagina? I'm currently heavily pregnant with our third child so clearly my vagina and I get along quite well!

Perhaps I should have taken this 'query' to a forum where the mothers are not so quick to attack someone who is merely seeking advice on how to deal with a situation that she has never faced before.
I have to wonder how many of you allow this behaviour in your own children and pass it off as 'normal'.

I do however think perhaps it would be a good idea to speak to a child psychologist / counsellor about the best way to discuss this with our daughter and about whether our concern is unwarranted.

It has always been my experience that a mother/child forum is a great place to get varying opinions and ideas on how best to handle situations. I probably would not have bothered if I had known I would be considered 'OP' and 'OTT'.

But thank you to those who, whether attacking, ridiculing or not, have given me some valid things to think about.

I still don't think you need to be worried about the effect on your dd because she was clothed, in public, just exposed to some odd behaviour (? acting like a crotch sniffing dog!!-ugh or whatever), for her I'd try and see it as if he had pushed his head into her abdo, or chest, or lower back. Encouraging her to use her voice and actions to move away, say no loudly, call for help from a teacher.
In the end you work with your child, support and encourage he communication skills and confidence, and the teachers should be helping this as well, and let the teachers and the parents of the boy to deal with him.
As for asking the Director if the child has a special need, they shouldn't be telling you this (privacy reasons), but he/she should listen to you and have a plan as to how and deal with this situation.
All the best.

Before you go to the police it would be a good idea to video what this boy is doing to your DD first, in that way if it comes to a court case, the boy's parents and the care centre will find it hard to defend themselves and deny this unacceptable behaviour.
It would probably be best to have the video camera hidden in a corner of the room since sometimes kids try to behave themselves around adults but when we're gone they get up to their old tricks again. Maybe try to get one of those videocams with professional sound recording abilities so you can hear exactly what the boy is saying to your DD. (sarcasm of course)

I'm sorry if a lot of posts seem sarcastic but if you have any little boys in the family, you'll realize that this "physical inappropriatness" actually happens fairly commonly in every kinder everyday in the country. Please give the boy the benefit of doubt that it is NOT sexual. Little boys especially, often find body parts hilarious mainly because there seems to be SOOOOO much taboo these days that the most innocent of inquisitiveness becomes "sexual assault". The reasonable thing to do is to mention it to the daytime carers which you have done. I know you didn't "call the police" but you did ask them for advice urgently before speaking to the director of the centre. I'm afraid that yes, that was over the top according to probably 99% of the population. Please try and see this from the point of the boy's parents and how hurt and upset they will feel that you think that:
a) their boy is assaulting your girl (yes other parents have guilt trips too)
b) you are insinuating that they are ABUSING their son. I would get very upset and insulted if you said that of my son especially if you mentioned you asked the POLICE what to do.
c) don't forget the kinder is a small place and people will talk about this whether you want them or not. You don't want to come across as the parent which others should avoid in fear of being labelled molester/pedophile by you.

You've come to a forum for advice, its up to you if you want to filter away advice you don't agree with but as I said, you'll probably find 1% of posters who will agree with you.

With all due respect (and I'm not attacking you, just disagreeing), the behaviours of 5 year old children and pedophiles can't, in any way, be compared. What we allow children to do in no way reflects what we allow grown adults to do.

I don't think its right to read children actions in the same way that we read adult actions. Children often act in ways that might seem sexual if done by an adult, but are in no way sexual when done by a child. My DS is 4 and I recall at one stage he found it very funny to put his hand down my top and pinch my boob. From him its innocent, from an adult its sexual assault. Children at that age don't understand what a sexual behaviour is.

A PP posted that this may indicate that he has suffered abuse. Maybe. It's a legitimate thing to think about. But from what you have posted it doesn't seem to be, it just sounds like very normal little boy behaviour. I also do understand that you might worry about your daughter, but I honestly believe that she won't interpret it as wrong/dirty/sexual unless you instill that feeling in her. It might be annoying or awkward for her, but I (personally) would be careful how you question her about it and how you talk about it in front of her so as not to give her an understanding of the situation that may not be accurate.

Best of luck mellowmum

While i do see your having a problem with this kid, I would have a problem too if someone did this to mine. I read that he's pretending to be a dog??? how could you think thats sexual..... my 2yr old goes around pretending he's a dog

but wearing clothes while in the bath with your dd??? That's just abit weird to me, yeah i might understand with a older boy but a girl...... not like its nothing she aint going to get.

Yeah wearing clothes in the shower/bath with your DD (who's 4 not 14) seems weird too. Its subliminal message is that there's shame / dirtiness involved.
I wouldn't have normally commented on this since it is within your family (and doesn't affect people outside) hence it is an internal choice but when combined with the situation at kinder, you may be instilling negative body attitudes in DD and she may misinterpret lots of occurrences outside the home to her detriment.

Which, by the sounds of it, is how you read any post that disagreed with your approach. Maybe if you just wanted people to agree rather than real input, you should have posted in venting or something?

Wow. I wonder what will happen if your DD meets a dog who tries to sniff her crotch.

I would speak to the director of the child care and ask them to keep an eye on it.

I agree that it is more than likely nothing sexual. I certainly wouldnt be making it a big thing with my child. I wouldnt want them to feel bad about it.

I actually think little boys and girls ARE sexual creatures...there I said it. We treat them like naive little idiots, but they know their genitals are special. I learned I could make myself feel good when I was a toddler, and I have been involved in some 'doctors and nurses' scenarios. I guess you could say this came from my home life, as I am the oldest of six and knew about the facts of life early on. I think all this is perfectly healthy and normal.

A line is crossed when a child is made uncomfortable by another child's behaviour, whatever it may be. I see nothing in the OP to indicate that DD was uncomfortable. I see plenty to indicate that the OP has a few issues.

OP means Original Poster or something similar. Completely harmless.

Maybe what you should bother doing is familiarising yourself with forums and their terminology before you use them.

OP you are bothered by this boys behaviour. I would talk with the Carers and leave it at that. It is up to people that supervise him to determine if he is behaving inappropriately.

I don't know I do think people are getting OTT with 5 yr olds and so called sexual abuse..

I saw a boy and girl about 5 or 6 at my DS school last week.. The boy pinched the girls bum and the girl then did the same back. Both thought it was funny and it didn't seem like a sexual thing at all, just that it was a bum and they thought it was funny to pinch it. I didn't see it as a big deal and if it was my DS or DD I had seen this happening to I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. I would just have a quiet word to my DS or DD telling them they shouldn't touch someones bum because it's stinky and vise versa they shouldn't touch theirs because it's stinky..

Although my kids (that I know of) have never been really fascinated about their private areas, they both see me naked and their dad naked and they know that it is called a vagina and penis we don't call them nicknames or anything and we are relaxed about things..of course we tell them nobody can touch them in those areas and to tell us if anyone has, but they are relaxed and don't see their privates as dirty or disgusting..But just that private..

Clearly Mellowmum you didn't read my response to your post in the other thread, if you had you would be well aware that not once have I 'chuckled' at your expense, infact I responded alot more politely than many of the other responses and provided some information that may not have occured to you. Maybe you should go back and have a read of it before you assume how someone feels about you!

If it were my child, I would want to know, and I would definitely do something about it!

I don't think you are over-reacting at all... I totally agree with what you have explained to your daughter. How, in today's society could a mother not press upon her daughter how important it is to not allow someone to touch you, and to tell straight away if they do!

I think if I did not have a son I would kind of agree... but once you have a boy then you can see that its all pretty harmless.
Boys just do different things, they do think their private parts are funny and my little boy spends every possible moment smacking my daughters bum (if he see it naked) he thinks it is soo funny and does it to me if I pass by naked - which would be with my towel on - popping out of the shower etc. I do try and explain that he can not do that to anyone outside of our hse, and worry that he might be the next sexual predator at kindy. He is 4 but we think its just so funny.
If it was me and I felt so strongly about it I would remove my girl from kindy and go elsewhere... my experience of creating scenes with parents and directors is not ideal, seems to have impact on your child.

I would find it quite uncomfortable if I saw a 5 y/o boy do that to my 4 y/o DD, and would definitely want to stop it. Don't think that I would go to the police to discuss it, but I would make damn sure the centre did something about it. I would probably keep on at them to make sure the behaviour was monitored and strongly discouraged.

The boy's behaviour may possibly indicate he has an autism spectrum disorder, being overly affectionate perhaps and not understanding about personal space limits.

In any case, I wouldn't want DD thinking it's fine for anyone to rub their face in her crotch (until she is a consenting adult of course and in a loving relationship!)

Yep both myself and my DH would be pretty upset if we had seen the same, so I dont think you are OTT either. I have a son and he has never felt the need to express himself by touching other people's privates so what is normal for some is not for all. I have 2 young DD's and with all of my children i have told them its not okay to let anyone touch their privates. Like you I prefer to err on the side of caution to allow them to grow in the bubble of innocence.
Oh and I was in a similar situation with my DS and his male cousin of the same age 2 years ago and because of my reinforcement about non touching when something innapropriate happened my DS knew to come and talk openly about it with me and allow me to help with the situation. As pp's have said give the centre the opportunity to sort it out but if it continues I would quite happily remove any of my children from that situation.
I feel sorry for you as I do for many posters in EB forums that when seeking advice you find judgement and ridicule. It is definitely possible to disagree with posters opinions etc. without making them feel small unfortunately some EB regulars dont seem to realise that. Yeah tear me to shreds if you wish pp's that i refer to...but it happens all too often and puts people in need of advice off of asking for it.

Bianca

Just wanted to point out that I don't think anyone has said that the OP is silly for being upset over the incident or that it's appropriate behaviour for the boy, just that the reaction is a bit extreme in the circumstances. A five year with a poor understanding of boundaries doesn't require a call to the police, there are more appropriate ways to manage the situation that will hopefully help the child to learn appropriate behaviour.

First and foremost I would make sure that the issue has actually been discussed with the childs parents. As a parent of a 5 year old boy with a poor understanding of boundaries I would be devestated if I was not made aware of an incident like this to get a chance to rectify the issue and the police had been involved. Sounds to me like you know very little about this boy and I would be wanting a lot more information before making a judgement call. My own DS is about to be assessed for possible Asperger's and we have worked hard every day of his life trying to instil personal space and boundaries in him and it's just a concept he doesn't 'get' IYKWIM.

Freud would agree

I too can understand why you are a bit freaked out, I certainly would be. I think you have a very very valid concern.

However - I personally wouldn't have gone to the police station...I just couldn't see myself walking in there, it seems so crazy without even taking it further with the childcare centre.

I would be demanding a meeting, DD wouldn't be going back until we had an action plan in place and I was sure it wasn't going to happen again - or if it was the boy would be corrected.

From your OP (original post that means btw) I picture you standing there, seeing this....and the childcare workers saying/doing nothing?? I would be asking them to keep an eye on it, whether or not this child has special needs, if he is doing this to other children, or specifically your daughter, the staff need to watch out and try and work out signs to prevent it OR if he does not have special needs and he is 5 years, he needs to be sat down and talked to about touching people inappropriately.

I get hes 5 and means nothing by it, boys love bums and farts and stinky silly things but it doesn't excuse him from rubbing his face in your DD's private area (unless there are some special needs that need to be addressed) he needs to learn that its not acceptable to do that.

As I said I would back off on the police...but be hounding the childcare centre!

Goodluck, i hope it can be worked out.

Hi all,

Firstly, to those who were actually ridiculing and berating me ..... whatever.
To those that I misconstrued in that manner .... I apologise.

DH and I spoke with the carers at the child care centre again. It turns out that because the manager left on maternity leave 2 weeks ago, she failed to inform the other staff of the situation. So we spoke to the new manager and our DD's carer.
The manager spoke to all of the other staff and her carer spoke with the boy's parents.
The staff are now aware that they need to keep an eye out and the boy's mother was quite receptive.
Although she pointed out that she has never personally seen this behaviour in her son, she said she would be more conscious of his behaviour in future and thanked us all for pointing it out to her.

We also took our daughter to speak with the chaplain/ counsellor at our DS's school. She spoke with us and our DD and reaffirmed to her that she was very good for talking so openly with us about what had happened and also reaffirmed that we were using the correct ways of discussing it with DD.
The chaplain is a fully qualified child counsellor and has offered that we can bring DD to her at any time we feel that we need some assistance.

So a big thank you for all of your advice, it was ALL taken in to consideration and helped us to achieve a very positive outcome.

I think its very wrong to label this 5yr old boy with having special needs because he is curios, I also think that understanding personal space is something many children develop at an older age. In my experience working in child care for over 10yrs it is normal behaviour for children to be sexually curious, however make believe play pretending to be a dog doesnt appear to me to be sexual on any level. It is unfortunate that this happened to your DD, however do you really know that it is only your DD that is singled out. Im sure if it is a professional child care centre the director will follow it up so that your child and yourself feel comfortable being there. I really think this is harmless play from a 5yr old, and people are so quick to judge a child as being sexually abused because of their behaviour, its really sad.