Every night for the last few weeks we've had wild tantrums from DS (2 1/2).
I can think of the following reasons:
- he's two. It happens.
- he's tired. He just went to a new age group at daycare and it's challenging him.
- he's tired. He is skipping his naps at his new daycare.
- he wants to stay up and play because it's fun
- he thinks he is a big kid and doesn't want to get in the cot.
- bedtime routine too long and I let him play too much in the bath, read too many books (but it's the only time we get together all day, I want it to be pleasant).

Regardless of the reason, it's become a terrible cycle. Either I waste time at night luring him to bed trying to avoid a tantrum (until I can't take it anymore, turn out the lights and just hold him till he tantrums himself to sleep), or I push the bedtime routine along, leading to 2 hours of hysterics before he tantrums himself to sleep. Either way, he doesn't sleep till 10PM!!!!! which is obviously far too late for a 2YO especially one who has skipped a nap. (he wakes at about 7:30am not at the crack of dawn thank goodness). Of course this late bedtime probably doesn't help the day sleeps the next day either; and he's been night waking now too.

DS has never been a good sleeper. We have a bedtime routine etc which was working reasonably well until recently, but I refuse to do controlled crying.

I have been trying:
- letting him sleep without sleeping bag (just delays timing of tantrum)
- letting him try to go to sleep wherever he wants, floor, my bed etc (just delays tantrum as he wanders around and refuses to close his eyes)
- reading him extra books before lights out
- after lights out telling stories, singing - no longer working as doesn't help during tantrum

I"m going to try:
- convert his cot to a bed
- provoking tantrum earlier by being firmer, hoping it shortens the routine
- hassling daycare to try harder with his naps
- change daycare if they can't achieve naps

I could also try having some playtime before we go upstairs for bed, to get it out of his system. But then, that would push bedtime even later.

Any ideas? recommendations?

I find it very distressing to deal with his upset for so long every evening. Not to mention, I am getting quite tired.

My toddler also has had some major tantrums lately and I completely understand how your feeling. I have started to take him to the park around 6pm to let of any last energy for about an hour, then home for a quick dinner and a nice warm bath to get rid of all the bark and dirt we just brought home with us! I'm finding him much easier to handle at this time of the day now, as he is distracted enough to not throw a rip roaring tantrum and we both get a little time out of the house! I actually took him out to the park twice today and wouldn't you know it.... not one tantrum to day at all. I'm feeling better too. Bit of fresh air has done us good.

I think its definetly a good time to move to a big bed and you can make it so exciting for him. I bought a ikaboo nightlight and my little boy just loves to lie in bed for 10 mins and wind down watching all the pretty colours, then I turn it off and it's lights out for him!

my DS does this off and on when he is really tired. Can you put your son to bed earlier? I think it is an overtiredness issue.

another disastrous evening... it's 11pm and he's just gone to sleep now.

he's definitely overtired, but I don't know how to break the cycle. Phenerghan? feeling desperate enough to try it.

Can you try to talk to him about what he did that day in day care while he is in the bath, and while he is talking, get him ready for bed?
He might need more time to process his day. Try putting him to bed at 7.30 now that he has dropped his nap, and put up with the tantrums for a few days: I know we do a lot to avoid tantrums, but I think 2 hours of tantrumming at 7.30 before finally sleeping at 9.30 is better than two hours of tantrumming from 8.30 to 10.30. Once he is sure that you are firm in the new routine and that you are not worried about him having a tantrum, he may settle down to sleeping earlier without too much fuss.

I know how you feel and how exhausting it becomes. My DS(2 and 1/2 years old) is doing the same (day and night). He is also waking at about 2am and having a huge tantrum as he wants us to get up and play. These one seem worse however it may be because we are all so tired. This week we have had 2am starts 2 days which have continued for up to 2 hours. My husband and I have just tried to be firm and consistent in the manner in which we are dealing with them and are hoping it will pass very soon. I haven't got any advice just some support to let you know you are not alone and I feel your frustration.

I don't have any suggestions except to say this sounds exactly like our household for DS who is 27 months. I also will not do control crying.

OUr problems have started since DS moved to a bed at 2 (he was climbing out of the cot) and it is a nightmare to get him to sleep. So while it might be worth trying going to a bed, you may also end up with similar problems (although probably can't get much worse can it?).

I think a lot of the problems with DS is that he is tired. He gets up at 5am and nothing we can do will get him back to sleep. He's started to drop his day nap, and although he will go to sleep earlier, it is still met with screaming. An awful way to end the day. If he's had a nap, it can take awhile to get him to sleep, but it usually takes me going in and out of his room a zillion times before he will eventually stay in bed.

Recently I've also tried sleeping him in our bed, on the floor (which he wanted to do, so moved his mattress on the floor) and whilst these things work one night, the next night they don't.

I think one of the suggestions of trying for an earlier bedtime is a good one, especially if there hasn't been a day nap. I guess if he's going to tantrum regardless, better to have it over with earlier?

I'm surprised daycare has given up on a nap so easily. Whilst my DS will often not nap at home, at daycare he so far seems to go down without any problems. Got me buggered how they manage to do it, but they do.

If you're unable to get your son to sleep at home, it seems unreasonable to expect daycare to be able to do it.
I think your focus needs to be getting your son to sleep at a decent night-time hour before trying to fix day sleeps.

TBH, I'm struggling to see how the current situation is any better for him (or you) than if you did controlled crying. At the moment, he is totally in control of what happens at night and really, should a 2.5 yo have that much control? If he's tantruming constantly, then he sounds just as distressed as if you were to let him cry off to sleep in his bed.

If he's only getting 8-9 hours sleep a night, with no day naps then of course he's tired. He needs 11-12 hours plus. I just can't understand how letting him cry (when he's not hungry or in pain - just not happy about having all the control) is any worse than depriving him of the crucial sleep he needs for his development.

I feel as though basically I am doing controlled crying at the moment, I'm just in the room with him while he cries!

I would try to make the transition to a 'big boy bed' as a milestone and opportunity to break the cycle. Perhaps look for some books about going to bed happily etc (or if you have lots of energy you could even make your own book with your DS as the main character) and read them for a week or two, talk about moving him to a big boy bed, how big boys like to go off to sleep in their bed etc etc?

Then once you move him to the big boy bed, explain what you expect from him and you'd have to just be absolutely firm on him staying there.

In terms of CC - I am happy for my DS to have a cry with me sitting in the room with him because he knows he's not been abandoned, he's just cranky!

With the tantrums, a friend of mine had great success with trying to verbalise what her son might be feeling at the beginning of the tantrum. Just sprouted whatever she could think of that might be wrong, eg "I think if I was you I would be feeling very tired after a long day at daycare. But you haven't had a chance to play with your toys and now you're cranky because it's time to go to bed, but you want to stay up and play. You don't like going to bed because blah blah blah" and on and on. For her DD, once she felt 'heard' the frustration decreased a lot.

Good luck - it sounds exhausting!

OP, I don't know how long you've been trying all of these things but you need to choose one thing and stick to it for a while. A minimum of a week or two.

DS went through this phase and it was largely about changing our household routine. We all had to stop and relax for 1/2hr before his bedtime.

We stopped playing. No toys. He was allowed books or TV and we just wound down.

At 2.5 we started the bedtime routine of setting an alarm clock (a fantastic leapfrog clock) which went off ten minutes before bed. We'd tell him it was time for bed but if he was a good boy he could stay up another 10 minutes.

Then, he went to bed. There was no discussion. If he screamed then all the lights went out and we all sat quietly together in the dark. Eventually he got the hint that was the way things were and they weren't going to change.

I wouldn't introduce playing for bed. I agree with a PP you should have nice wind down activities before bed.

If he is skipping a nap and taking so long to go to sleep I would aim at getting him to bed at 7pm.

I know you want to spend time with him, but I would be limiting the reading to one book. It sounds to me like you chop and change, depending on how YOU feel....whereas he is telling you he needs something consistent. It sound extreme but I would work out his bedtime routine down to minutes....so that he knows exactly what to expect.

So it might be something like this

5:30-6pm - Dinner
6 - 6:30pm - Wind down playing, this could be you sitting on the lounge with him reading books, or him watching some tv. Nothing energetic.
6:30 - 6:45pm - Bath and put in pjs
6:45 - 7pm - Brush Teeth/ Milk whatever you do...ONE book, kiss cuddle, sleeptime.

It sounds harsh and i know you want to be playing with him as its the only time you spend with him, but really his sleep is far more important at this stage. Once you have a very stable routine in place you can then make it a bit longer and change it up. Until then you have to do what he needs. Once he stops tantruming you could push the bedtime back to 7:30pm. My DD who is 3 doesn't go to bed until 8pm...but when she doesn't have a nap she barely makes it till 7:30pm. It really sounds like he is overtired so i would be working at getting him into bed as early as possible.

Another method, that I don't really think is controlled crying, is instead of holding him down and letting him tantrum to sleep, is to sit in the room, with your back to him. Don't hold him, or talk to him in any way. That way, hes still crying but he knows you are there in the room with him. As he calms down slowly edge your way out of the room until you are sitting the doorway. You might have to sit there for two hours, but if you give him no attention he will soon tire out. I know you don't like controlled crying but for me the image of you holding him down until he "tantrums himself to sleep" is far more distressing. Being in the room you know hes safe, hes not hungry or hurt he is just a little boy who is very tired and unable to put himself to sleep, so you have to teach him.

I would really work on the environment in his room as well. DD's room has a dull lamp light in her bedroom, when she comes in after her bath and gets changed we talk in whispers and its all very soothing and calm. The tvs are turned off and she knows its time for bed. Trying dimming lights, playing soft restful music and making his bedroom a place for sleep. If you have any toys take them out, he should start to understand that bedtime is for sleep.

Personally I wouldn't be putting him into a big bed until you can sort out his sleeptime in a cot...if hes tantruming in the cot a big bed will be a nightmare with him running out all the time. If you can sort out his sleep now changing him to bed later will be much easier.

I really like the PP idea of a timer for when its time for bed, a very good concrete signal.

DD had issues when she was a baby at sleep issues, we actually went to sleep school and put in place a very very good bedtime routine for her, its changed since she was a baby of course but still follows the same rules. Putting her to bed takes about half an hour and she knows what to expect. She always sleeps through the night and is very happy to be put in bed.

Anyway i hope that helps a bit, sleep is precious for him at this age. Let us know how it goes.

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions!

Just a quick update - we're getting a single bed for DS and it should arrive this weekend. I decided not to make a big "enforcement" issue over sleep figuring, if I am going to put effort into implementing a strict new bedtime routine I should save it till the big bed is here.
So I have been letting DS fall asleep in my bed, then transferring him to his cot.

It's not ideal for either of us, but he has been getting to sleep earlier and earlier (still not brilliant but he's now asleep by 9pm) and at least he feels safe and comfy enough to fall asleep while I tell him a story. Hoping to carry the story theme over to the big boy bed.

he is so excited about getting a big boy bed - I'm really building it up a lot.

I think he also needs a night light. He is saying "Light on mummy" and "feel better light on" and "scary" when I turn it off. So I'd like to get one that is safe for him to turn on and off by himself, next to his "big boy bed".

He is settling into his new class in daycare too, so I think that is helping as well. Goodness me, if his sleep is mucked up by changing classes, I wonder what baby#2 arriving is going to do to him! bracing myself....