Hi Marcia,

Jeez – I know your husband was probably just being polite, but he really shouldn’t have said “yes” without discussing it properly! Still, that’s water under the bridge. The real question is what to do now.

And look, don’t feel bad that you didn’t say anything, because it is a delicate situation and it’s difficult to know exactly what to say. To help you out I have interviewed Paul Brennan, a practicing lawyer with Brennans Solicitors. Paul is also the author of several books, including ‘The Law is an Ass’ and ‘A Legal Guide to Dying’.

“Becoming a guardian is an immense responsibility”, he says. “You have to consider not only the child who you are being asked to become guardian for, but also the impact that introducing that child into your family unit will have on your own children. Quite frankly it can have a horrendous effect on your family, and your children may feel particularly hard done by.”

And if you don’t like that child now, chances are you may like him even less if he is living with you! Paul warns that children’s behaviour can deteriorate markedly when they are experiencing a traumatic event. “In my experience kids don’t spare the rod if their parents die,” he says. “They are processing grief and trauma and they can be even more disruptive that normal. Just because you will be feeling sorry for them won’t necessarily help you to like them more – let’s be honest, sometimes there are kids that we do hate. That’s human nature.”

Marcia, as to whether you should turn around and say “no” to your friends, Paul advises you to consider leaving it the way it is. “For now, I’d be inclined to just leave it and get on with your life,” he says. “The chances of something happening to both your friends is very small, and over time your situations will change. They may well nominate different guardians down the track as their family circumstances change. If the worst does happen you can always refuse the guardianship, in which case the courts will decide what is in the best interest of the child. Most often Grandparents will step in, or an Uncle or Aunt.”

Either way it may not be worth risking a friendship now over something that is a remote future possibility. Good luck!

EB Members: What's your advice?

Wow that's a big thing to ask some-one to do withoiut totally checking out whether they want to do it and what it would entail exactly.

We have asked my sister and have discussed it in detail with her. We have discussed the financial implications for her and have ensured that any money that came with our children she would have access to to spend as she sees fit. We understand that should it ever happen we would be imposing on her HUGELY!

In your shoes? I would discuss it first wit my husband because it would greatly bother me that he would say yes to such a thing without discussing it with me first. I would probably leave it as is as i agree it is unlikely to happen. If it did happen I would reassess things then.

I think you need to speak to them ASAP! and get them to change it, just say you have thought about it, in great detail and have decided against it, at the end of the day they may be upset but surely they would want there son to go to someone that would love him and treat him as close to possible as there own so you clearly wouldnt be the right choice for those reasons.

I think if you just shut up and dealt with it if the situation arose you would regret it, and it would cause lots of problems for you, and to be honest I dont think the little boy would be happy there, if he could feel that you didnt want him there, and ultimately long term that is not a good situation for any child.

Honestly I wouldnt want my children to go to live with someone in the event that we died, that felt the way you do, (my post probably sounds b**chy and I am trying not to come across that way) you have every right to feel the way you do, as its a huge decision that impacts your relationship and your children,just saying that I would want my children to go to someone that really wants them, not someone that feels obligated to say yes, so although they may be angry at first to hear you dont want too, they will ultimately realise its for the best.

Good luck.

That is a good point - I'd hate the idea of my kids living with someone who didn't really want them, too.

I am going to go completely against the grain here by saying this but why do you think the child is a bully and obnoxious, rough and is spoilt?
Kids are a reflection of their parents and parenting and unless the child has some type of medical disorder, which I presume he doesn't or you would have mentioned it, then his bad behaviour is probably a symptom of a sad little boy for some reason or another.

I think it is sad that you think badly of the child but not of your friends.
Let's face it, the chances of you having to have him are miniscule and they obviously have no other family or friends who they want to be his guardians so I think you should just leave it be and not ruin the friendship if it is one that is worth keeping.
It is so sad that this little boy has already got people 'hating on him' and arguing about who will take him on in the event of him being orphaned.

edited for double post

dammit STBG!! Stop saying things I agree with! Its scaring me!!

So sad when a child gets blamed for the parents actions tho.

Hi STBG. I'm not quite sure what you mean - surely friends can still be friends even if we don't agree with all of their parenting decisions?

It is the way you have spoken about their son that is bothersome----of course you do not have to agree with all their parenting decisions but then to vilify the product of their decisions is incredibly unfair.

just bizarre isn't it Freakypet( I actually agree with LOTS of things you say)

Back to the subject at hand though-------I can not understand the thought process that allows people to blame a child ? A child is born with a clean slate, unless there is a medical problem which impacts on them, a young child is not responsible for their bad behaviour.

I wouldn't be in cold sweats about it, it is unlikely to happen and have you thought about the fact that although the first couple of months would be difficult how the little boys behaviour could change for the better under your parenting. There is always enough love - I ended up with an extra child, under a much better circumstance - my final pregnanct turned into twins, and now wouldn't have it any other way.

I don't think you would be forced to be the child's guardian, just because you were nominated as such by the parents. That would become a matter for the court to decide if you or anyone else in the child's family felt that the child's (and your children's) best interests would not be served by having the child live with you.

Call legal aid or check with a lawyer.

Bear in mind before you panic that the chances of this eventuating are remote. In the meantime it's a rather huge compliment from your friends, I'd be rather flattered.

Oh come on Soon to be gran - get real. Some kids are brats despite the best efforts of their parents. And some are because their parents are not very good (though well intentioned) at nipping bad behaviour in the bud.

I know a 3 year old bully in my younger son's childcare. Seriously this kid will come up behind a total stranger and pinch them hard on the arm and run off giggling. He'll see that I spied him and he'll give the evil grin of someone daring me to call him out, which of course I can't because of people like you who say all kids are innocents.

The parents are totally normal, just too relaxed and don't even see what he's doing. They are quite good friends of ours and I just have to keep strictly to "after work" meetings with them so the boys are kept apart. I do not want to expose my son to a bully before he is old enough to deal (he's barely 2).

My grandmother once found a couple of 10 year olds putting her new-to-the-school son on a tree stump with a rope round his neck. Those boys grew up to be thugs of the worst sort, legal thugs with legalised bullying rights. The parents were just ineffectual, not abusive, not bullying and not dysfunctional. Kids like that run rings around parents who aren't on the ball. If you can't see that then I suspect your own kids run rings around you.

[quote][/qOh come on Soon to be gran - get real. Some kids are brats despite the best efforts of their parents. And some are because their parents are not very good (though well intentioned) at nipping bad behaviour in the bud.

uote]

Clearly I totally disgree with you. How can you blame a young child for being a brat? That makes no sense at all. As I said in another post, a child is born with a clean slate and aside from medical issues (which are extremely valid in some cases but not in the OP's case it seems) that may affect their ability to behave, what is written on that slate is predominantly the parents responsibility (please excuse the Dr Phil quote, it is very appropriate here)
Children are not inherently bad, they may well be born with a predisposition to 'bratty' bad behaviour from some social/genetic issues handed on by THEIR PARENTS or they may be 'bratty' because of what they have witnessed or because they have not been disciplined properly by THEIR PARENTS whether that be due to lack of knowledge, lack of insight, lack of social awareness or lack of caring, I do not see how the YOUNG child can be given the rap for bad behaviour.

A 3 year old bully hey? Something makes a 3 year old a bully---it just doesn't occur by itself. It is NOT normal behaviour to pinch someone then run off giggling, that shows intent to hurt opposed to a 3 year old who will pinch as a response to having a toy taken from them --that is a reaction and whilst it needs to be disciplined it is quite a normal behaviour for any 3 year old.
There is a problem if a 3 year old is getting pleasure out of deliberately hurting someone and it is NOT the child's problem.
Your friends do not have to be perfect---who is? I'm not and I am sure you aren't either but if they have a young child who you descibe as SPOILT, A BULLY, RUDE AND OBNOXIOUS then I know whose fault it is----

It is just sad that young children are made the scapegoat for behaviour caused by poor or no discipline, they get labelled by people like you who see the outburst but can't see past the fact that it was carried out by a virtual baby.
There is however a great deal of difference when discussing the OLDER child whom may have been adversely affected by influences other than their parents and are old enough to be able to decipher right from wrong and inappropriate behaviour as opposed to appropriate.
Having said this I do not believe that this fact absolves even the older childs' parent from shouldering a proportion of the blame also. I know that these children can behave this way DESPITE their parents best intentions ( I have had 5 myself, so I would be foolish to deny that) but 3 year olds?---no.

What a hideous thread this is, it makes me feel sick.

OK, you don't want your closest friend's brat in the event that he is left an orphan. You 'hate' your closest friend's child because he isn't very nice. You are happy to be friends with his parents, but only on certain conditions ie. that you and your kids don't have to get too close to their son. Fine, they are all choices you are free to make. Does it make you a very nice person? No. Not from where I'm watching.

A proposal for guardianship in a will is just stating parents' preferences, it is not a binding legal situation, as 'Paul' has pointed out for you. 'Paul' the lawyer who has also become an expert in children aka "Paul warns that children’s behaviour can deteriorate markedly when they are experiencing a traumatic event". Excuse me? Are you advising people to steer clear of grieving new orphans because they can be hard work? Maybe you could just stick to the law where your clinical style can be most effective.

Finally, please spare me the rubbish about children not being the product of their parents. Parents who are"ineffectual" or "not very good (though well intentioned) at nipping bad behaviour in the bud" are completely responsible for allowing their children to develop bullying tendencies. Children need guidance and rules to develop a sense of responsibility, if they have passive parents who are not doing this then how is it a child's fault that they grow up not knowing what is right or wrong?

Frankly, thinking about a despairing, orphaned child being rejected by people who should be comforting and caring for him just makes me want to cry.

I so agree with you. I read the OP's original post gobsmacked that anyone could feel that way about the possibility of being encumbered by her close friends child citing his behaviour as the reason. Given the fact that for this guardianship to come to fruition would be that her close friends had both died, it seems rather superficial that the issue at hand is the child and not the death of her friends.


OP, how fortunate that this is not a legally binding guardianship as there is no way this child should have to live with 2 people who judge him for the behaviour his parents have created, especially as it could 'deteriorate even further' once his parents die.
You need to do the honourable thing and tell your friends the truth about why this life they would be entrusting to you would be a burden that you could not manage and give them a chance to perhaps rethink their parenting and then find some other people who would take on the 'brat'

I really do understand your predicament, but I think that weighing up the potential damage to your friendship if you decline possible guardianship, against the likelihood of both parents dying before this child turns 18, maybe you should just leave well enough alone. It truly is unlikely to happen. And I guess I also think, however annoying a child is (and yup, some are damn nightmares), if he does lose both parents, can you imagine what feelings he might be going through - if this does happen, he is going to need so much support and really if it were me, I think I'd think of the poor child and try to help. That said, I totally understand that he's a brat and you don't want him there. Maybe some different parenting would bring about a change in him.

When we did our wills, the solictor advised us that a guardianship clause is completely irrrelevant under Victorian law.

This somewhat surperised me, but under Victoria's 'progressive' legal system, the courts have the exclusive decision-making power over guardianship of a double orphaned child. In making thier decision, they are under no obligation to consider anything that deceased parents may specify in the will.

That said, they must take into account a whole raft of other things when making their decision - things like the next of kin and their financial means, the child's preference and level of independence etc. But it is a bit of a 'government knows best what's good for you' approach; nowhere does the relevant Act even contemplate a testamentary guardianship clause as having any influence whatsoever over their decision.

Not sure if other states are similar, but if you live in VIC this would make the whole thread topic a moot point.

I have to say I agree ...

My instant reaction was to think of how self absorbed your question was.

Wouldn't you feel sorry for the child if in the most unfortunate of circumstances he lost his parents ... and sure if they are asking you to take on the responsibility - they feel there is no one better for the job!

Has it occurred to you that they admire your parenting skills - your perfect children who clearly don't misbehave or do any of the behaviours you mentioned in your post.

Perhaps they feel that they couldn't see better parents for him or a better environment.

You should be flattered! And as for the child - everybody knows - children are basically the creation of their parents...

I agree that you probably won't need to worry about this situation should it arise and should perhaps try to see the child for what he is ... a CHILD ... I wonder how his parents would feel if they knew you disliked their child ... I doubt the friendship would remain as strong as you say and no doubt you would be removed as Guardian first choice.

To the OP I'd like to say that I can sympathise with your situation. I'm sorry so many people have been so aggressive in their opinions too.

Firstly, isn't it typical for a guy (in this case your husband for example) to just say yes to something like that without thinking through any of the potential consequences. My feeling is that women are much better at sorting through future scenarios and if I was in your position I wouldn't be sleeping very well. Whatever the reality about this child, and whatever the causes of his personality being as it is, the fact remains that you don't only not actively like him but you actively dislike him. I like almost all of the kids in my family and in my mothers group but there are a couple of kids that are just so alien to me in the way they seem to perceive the world that, without talking about irrelevant issues around why the kids are the way they are, I don't like them and would choose not to leave my daughter alone with them let alone welcome them into my family.

If this boy joined your family, being older, he would suddenly take over your son's position as the eldest child and his example through life will impact in various ways on your boys. If they are really close together they might be always in the same class in school. Taking him in sounds likely to change yours from a functional family to a disfunctional family in one stroke. If he isn't wanted he will know it and will act out and your kids will have to have that playing out in their house too. So, all up I'm on your side.

Have you told your husband how you feel now or are you still staying silent? It will be embarassing for him to have to take back his agreement but at the same time it speaks volumes about the child's parents that they would go ahead with the will without hearing one word of support for the plan from you as potential *mother*.

I think you should just tell them that much as you would love to take him you've really thought about it and you just can't see it working out so have decided to regretfully turn down their request then quickly, and importantly, insist on paying all legal costs that will be incurred in changing the will. Don't just offer, insist. Apologise profusely, but do it. Maybe even put it in an email so they can digest it without cross-examining you. This is unless you can just put it out of your mind and trust that your friends will not manage to kill themselves in a car crash. However, if the potential guardianship is going to be something you will feel permanently hanging over your head then it's best to get out of it now before you make yourself sick.

Children cannot be bequeathed. They are not property. If you do not want this child to live with you, he will not. Even if you do, he may not. A court will decide.

I would let sleeping dogs lie, except to tell your DH that he should never do something like this again. The chances of it coming to a head are miniscule. The chances of losing your friends over it are very high.

Unlike some PP, I can quite understand why you would not want this child in your home, especially given that you were never asked about it. It's not about whether he is a 'good' or 'bad' kid - fact is, you don't like him. It happens. What could be worse than for him to have to live with you in those circumstances?

Chill. You are more likely to be struck by lightning.

Of course, lying is always a good option

Be brave OP, tell them like you toid us. You don't want him because he is a spoilt, rough, obnoxious bully.

Why so?
Who is to say that if the poor child was actually taken in by a family who nurtured and loved him, taught him to share, gave him some coping skills and disciplined him appropriately for the first time in his young life, that he maybe an absolute joy to any family.
NO child of this age is a 'bad egg' unless there is a medical condition causing his behaviour , there is just inept parenting.
I wonder how you women who are'understanding'and supporting the feelings the OP has for this child would cope if it was one of their children being vilified on a public forum?

I think some PPs are being a bit harsh - OK the OP doesn't like the child, that's a shame, but she doesn't deserve to be flamed for it! Whether one blames the parents or the child for the cause of his behaviour, the fact remains that he has become a child that she dislikes having around. That may change in the future, or it may not.

Quite frankly no matter how much I liked or disliked a child I would hesitate before agreeing to be that child's guardian, it is a tremendous responsibility and will (if the parents die) have a huge and permanent impact on my family.

I would definitely talk to the friends. How would you feel if it was your own children? You ask someone to be a guardian because you want to make sure that they will be cared for by someone you trust to give them a good and happy life - how would you feel if you found out that your chosen guardian planned to refuse the care of your children as soon as you died?

What sort of impact would that have on a poor child who is dealing with the loss of both parents - not only are the people who loved you most in the world gone, but now their friends are rejecting you and a court has to decide who will take you - the poor child would probably conclude that no-one loves them!

If parents are smart enough to plan ahead for their child's future in the event of an accident, the least that you can do is do what you can to ensure that those plans will mean something.

[quote]Unlike some PP, I can quite understand why you would not want this child in your home, especially given that you were never asked about it. It's not about whether he is a 'good' or 'bad' kid - fact is, you don't like him. It happens. What could be worse than for him to have to live with you in those circumstances?
[/quote


I agree, who would want the child to live with her under those circumstances and if the OP had told us that the reason she couldn't have him was because she couldn't manage financially or she didn't think she and her DH had it in them to stretch themselves to love another child then I am sure she would have been met with less criticism. Instead she has come in here and professed her extreme dislike for a child because he is a bully, obnoxious, spoilt and violent and instead of understanding that these traits have obviously been caused by inept parenting, she has him labelled as the devil's spawn and for that reason would not even give the kid a chance.

Probably not so good if I found out the reason was because they hated him. Even worse when I found out that it was because it was thought my child was a spolit brat.
These people are meant to be good friends whom are clearly totally unaware of how much contempt there is for their child?
How does that happen?

being a guardian does NOT mean the child has to come and live with you, it simply means you will be responsible for making decisions for that child.

however if i felt this way about the child i would probably beg off from it, using the excuse that i didn't want the responsibility.

I really don't think it's about the child's personality, it's about what's best for the child and more importantly what is best for the OP's children and realistically for any mother the welfare of her own children is going to be her primary concern. The OP says that it would be 10 or more years with him so you have to assume that the boyun is 7 at a minimum. You know what they say, "give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". Of course early childhood influences can be overcome to an extent but clearly that isn't going to happen in a house where the child is unwanted. The OP's children are a little younger than the other child so there is room for them to be damaged by the pressence in their house and lives of this complex and unloved child (unloved within the new family) so it is patently clear that this isn't going to work. Much better his parents try again to find someone who will cherish him and not see him as a burden.

To the writer of the article, I wouldn't worry about how to tell them what you feel about the situation - they have probably worked out it is they and their son who are being discussed in a pretty horrible way for all the world to see. Would you like to read something about your children in this way. Seems just an excuse to get "published" on a blog to me. Shame. This is a child who if his parents are killed will be devastated and will need love and support. I hope he doesn't go and live with you. There are plenty of loving, giving people out there who would be honoured to take care of him.

The idea of a child being born 'Tabula rasa' (with a clean slate) is pretty widely discredited in psychology. Behaviour is influenced by such a wide range of factors, some of which are certainly present at birth (neurochemistry and genetics for two).

As for the OP, I think it would be wise to gently talk to your friends. Let them know you are so honoured that they trust you with this responsibility, say you have been thinking about it at great lengths as you know what an important responsibility it is, and maybe ask them why they think you are the right person? I would probably then say you will consider their opinions more and leave it another week or two before saying that you have considered all aspects at great length and you are not convinced you could give their son the love and attention you think he deserves. NEVER make it seem it is about their son.

there seems to be some people on eb that have nothing better to do than sit around reading posts so that they have someone to pounce on and bully. we dont all agree. so what? the op is entitled to her opinion and should feel free to ask the questions without the nastiness that goes on.

i dont agree that children are born with a clean slate, but i do agree behaviour is shaped largely by the way they are brought up. but their parents are not the cause of every problem.

i didnt see anywhere that the op claimed to have perfect children and come on, have sone of you NEVER met a kid you didnt like for whatever reason? to claim to like everyone is just rubbish. i agree its a sad situation but being so rude is hardly likely to help.

That's good advice, Appletree.

A very good Dr once told my mother..."you can get good kids from bad parents...and you can get bad kids from good parents".

I believe it's all a mix of genetics, predispostions, environment and experience.

My brother has 4 children. Eldest 16 and youngest 6. I love them of course, but i don't think I could take them on if my brother was killed. They have not been raised well. And my primary concern is my own children.

I don't think you are being selfish at all. You son't have to like someone simply because they are a child.

I would do nothing. If the unthinkable happened, you are not bound to accept this child. There are other alternatives. You could still be a loving support without adversley affecting your own children.

Exactly!!!!

I have my sister and Dh's brother as my children's guardians. When we asked them if they would be willing to fill this role for us, we made it clear that it didn't mean that the children had to come and live with one of them, but that we trusted them to make the absolute best decision for our children in our absense.

I believe with all of my heart that they would consider what was best for our kids and make sure it happens ... THAT is the role of a guardian!