Sirgamble, I, like so many others, have very serious doubts as to your medical qualifications. But be they or be they not, you are still missing the point completely. So until such time as you actually get the point (try reading from page 1 again. It will give you something to do between *procedures*), perhaps it would be better if you stopped posting.

As was previously pointed out by another member, I don't actually think you are a male either. Something in the manner in which you write is distictly female. A female who is very much pushing her own agenda.

If you are a male however, I am deeply concerned as to why you are here and commenting on this subject anyway. Breastfeeding is very far removed from anything you will ever experience that I can only put it down to an unaddressed fetish. Perhaps you are a male suffering from an Oedipus complex.

As did, as do MOST husbands these days .. want a medal?
As did and as do MOST parents and In-LAWS, not many don't want to spend time with a new grandchild.

The road to hell is paved with good intent ....
And you STILL miss the big picture. SHE DIDNT TRY AN CONTACT THE MUM!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahahahahahahahahahaa.
No, wait, Ahahahahahahahahaha.
Never assume someone elses position. I actually "retired" just before my 36th birthday because I was in a lucky enough position to do so. My husband still works because I'm not a sharer
Because I don't "work" it does not mean that I do not "work". I volunteer 20hrs a week amongst other things...

And good on you if you and your wife think the mother of the child is a b**ch. Shows that you are probably well suited to each other.

I am with the majority of women on here and agree with Cathode. I would also be horrified if a friend breastfed my baby without my permission whilst babysitting for an hour. It is something that I personally would find offensive for my own personal reasons. That goes for all 4 of my daughters, not just the eldest one. I found breastfeeding an intimate experience and would not wish to share it with anyone, not even my sister (IF I had one). It was not asked for and should not be assumed.
Yes people make mistakes but in my opinion as a woman who has breastfed 4 babies it is a monumental mistake. I don't honestly know if I could forgive a friend for doing something like that no matter how long I had known her for.

Lynnie

I dont blame her, best friend or not you crossed the line. You say you have a 6 month old and in that time you have not learned of another way to feed or calm the baby? What if you were not able to breastfeed? There were no other options? I find it hard to believe and slightly concerning that you felt the need to do it. I think you should stop trying to contact her and take the hint because Id run too.

On another note to those of you arguing with each other over the medical side of things. Even if she was 100% clean which we assume she is, it is still crossing the line of morality. Even if you can purchase breast milk these days some people would not do it (including myself) and and with all that aside maybe the fact that some women who breast feed and regard it as bonding and intimate with 'their own' child may be a bit freaked out by it because I sure as hell would be.

can everybody please stop bagging housewives.

I have an hon degree and as a professional earn a well over 6 figure income, however I have chosen to take extended time out to look after my daughter. I guess this makes me a stay at home mum / housewife. is this a problem to anyone?????

gee SIRCRAPALOT, your wife must be SO PROUD of your incredibly forward thinking modern views to women and child rearing in this day and age. lucky her.

oh, and the only emotional basket case around here is YOU. I've never seen so much hysteria and emotion come from one man, cough...

oh and another thing, the 41 pages on this thread were from women interested in sharing their opinions on a subject close to our heart, they are not 41 pages of fan letters to a weirdo like you with nothing better to do than antagonise honest genuine women.

why don't you go troll an S&M site instead, you might find more sympathy there.

"Sirgamble" doesnt agree with that apparently, because despite myself alone stating that in about 5 posts to "him" on here (plus all the others that have said the same thing to "him"), "he" continues to ignore that and harp on about HIV.

I don't think anyone wants to put down housewives (except that "guy").
I am a housewife amongst my other work, and I am proud of it

I didnt start my midwifery until the late 70s and it was in a very forward thinking, major public teaching hospital in Melbourne and I unfortunately must report that when I FIRST started
*Most husbands went home and waited for the phone to ring and tell them there was a new baby
*primigravidas stayed in hospital for 8-9 days
*multigravidas had a 6-7 day stay
*C/S stayed for 10-12 days
*Babies were fed 4x6 if over 37 weeks and 3 kgs and 3x8 if under 37 weeks and 2.5kgs
*Babies were kept in the nursery and taken out to mum for a feed then back to the nursery and the babies started 3x3 mins each side the first day then 5x5 the next, 7x7 the next and then 10x10.
* Fathers wore white gowns to handle their babies
*Babies were test weighed day 3 and 4 and comp'd with formula to ensure they had their quota
*Babies were given boiled water after their birth
*Absolutely no visitor and baby met unless through the window of the nursery
* BREAST MILK that was EXTRA was POOLED and taken to the Infant Formula Room where it was boiled, bottled and given to the babies whose mums who wanted them to have breast milk but did not have an adequate supply.

Having said ALL of this, we were also one of the first hospitals to welcome dads, to bring in demand feeding, to ban test weighing and to stop feeding babies formula willy nilly but this was definitely not until the late 70s for some things and early 80's for other things to change.

I look back now and am embarrassed about what happened but one thing I can say for certain is that MANY more mums went home successfully breast feeding and STILL feeding in 6 months time.
It is because all the problems of sore nipples, engorged breasts, jaundiced babies and poor supply had been well and truly ironed out beforehand. We would have NEVER sent a mum home unless she had been consistantly observed to be successfully feeding either by breast or by bottle and the baby was gaining weight and jaundice was resolving. She then had 2 visits by a domicilliary nurse in the first couple of days at home to check all was wel before the mum got a chance to see the MCHN.
NOT SO these days.

I respect that is how you and many others feel, however not everyone feels that is is 'crossing the line of morality' The fact is that whilst the OP clearly did not 'know' her friend well she did not maliciously attempt to sabotage the breast feeding relationship of her friend.
Her mistakes I believe, are not knowing her friend well enough to realise this would not be OK with her , not asking permission and a mistake I believe should be shared with the friend and that is that there was no communication about what she was expected to do with the baby if she became upset in the mother's absence.

Thanks so much soontobegran!!!! That is exactly what I was trying to say yesterday until that troll took everything off topic again...

We have to leave hospital after 3 days now, before our milk and breastfeeding is established. I was so overwhelmed by the whole experience and totally clueless with no help or advice on how to go about breastfeeding my new baby after discharge. The MCHN did not come to visit me until well into the 2nd week, it was pretty much pear shaped by that stage anyway. It was to date one of the most overwhelming experiences of my life and I gave up breastfeeding very quickly. With number 2 on the way I really don't know how I will cope with the feeding again, it does NOT come naturally to all of us as we are made to feel it should. I felt like a complete failure and it is for this reason that if someone else picked up my little baby and breastfed them without consent I would have been devastated, as I was struggling so much with the whole situation.

I know that the troll will twist my words here to make his own sick judgement but this is my experience and that is all I can go by.

I reply..

So...if my friend breastfed my baby and it resulted in my baby going off my milk entirely and thus was the end of breastfeeding for my baby (or my baby having an allergic reaction or catching something) that would be a bad outcome from the friend's behaviour and I would be justified in being mad at her, but if the baby took the feed and then went happily back to my milk and was fine then that's a good outcome of the identical behaviour and I should be grateful to my friend? So much for you being rational or logical.

Well over a 6 figure income would be a 7+ figure income. Can I have some? :-)

I know you keep replying (just like the rest of them... because you love it!)

There are no excuses for being a b!tch... that's my point. She over-reacted!

How many times do I have to say it?

Do you mean the mother of the baby was jealous because her best friend breastfed her baby without her consent? I thought it was the other way round. My feeling was her best friend wanted to replace her in breastfeeding her baby and she might be jealous of the bonding they shared and wanted to take that away from her best friend.

It is like my best friend is trying to seduce my husband into having sex.

If it is my husband seducing the best friend, then I would be very jealous.

It was quite challenging to me as well to breastfeed successfully. Yes, I am still breastfeeding my son even though he is now two years old.

I was basically breastfeeding my son in the first 7 days nearly non stop. Babies can sleep and suck the breast at the same time. However, I wasn't able to do that. As I also did not have sufficient milk supply, therefore, I had to feed him more frequently and longer. I could be feeding him from 12pm till 6am and then every two hours for the rest of the day in the first one to two weeks as the nurses told me the more you fed, the more milk you could produce and therefore, I was feeding the baby like crazy even though he was losing weights quite rapidly. I took some tablets and changed my diet to boost my milk output. Even though at one stage, it was painful to breastfeed, I persisted.

Eventually, I had to give him a bottle after 6 weeks but amazingly, he kept having breastmilk in addition to formula and then later plus solids. Yes, he is on breastmilk, cow milk and adult meals at the moment. Even though he is full after having full bottle of cow milk and 1/3 of our meal, he still wants breastmilk so that he can be close to me and to go to sleep. He wants to be assured that he is being loved and wanted.

Hope that you can breastfeed longer with your second baby. Persist and relax.

I'm so sorry you had such an awful experience.. And, you've made a great point.. For some (obviously not all) women, breast feeding is about more than just providing a meal to their offspring. It's emotional.. And, having someone else breast feed their child could feel like a violation. It would for me.

I think it would take a Saint to not react "like a b**ch" (as the kind "Doctor" so eloquently put it) if they felt they had been violated.

I've had a gutful and made a report.
I suggest anyone else that feels the same to do so.

I was wondering if anyone was going to offer JC some further advice around relationship mending?

I think we've seen the suggestion of writing a letter or card, or sending an email.

I know there have been a couple of suggestions regarding content, but most of them have been from the "I don't see anything wrong" crowd, which means that because they can't see the perspective of the baby's mother, their suggestions are probably doomed.

Myself, I thought if she were going to attempt to mend a relationship, JC is going to have to develop a serious case of empathy. By that, I mean taking on the other mother's views and feeling the hurt and damage that she feels, not what JC thinks she ought to feel. This is a very difficult thing to do!

If JC could manage that, she has a foundation for an acceptable apology, and to begin to restore something like a normal relationship. JC will probably have to accept that she won't be fully trusted again, but we all 'reserve' our rights over some issues - like people who've done jail time or been bankrupted.

JC could also invest in the services of a relationship counsellor - to help clear the air, if nothing else. In future, stick to activities that are joint, and never assume you know the right thing to do for another person, always ALWAYS ask - even if you are 99% sure. I watched a close relationship go bust because the guy always assumed he knew what his partner wanted, and was right 99% of the time. But it irritated her when he never asked - to the point that eventually she told him to leave (there were other issues as well, but that drove her nuts - controlling behaviour).

Anyhoo, anyone else got a suggestion for mending a very broken relationship?

Hi everyone

Can all members please stick to the Blog topic that was originally posted and not make personal attacks.

I'm not sure how to go about trying to reestablish the friendship.

Thanks Catalyst,

We're trying real hard to get back on track! Promise.

JC: in order to heal the relationship with your friend, I think you need to try to understand why she reacted the way she did (there should be plenty of posts in this thread which might be able to help with that).. you need to validate her feelings (ie: the opposite of telling her "to chill out and not be so uptight").. And you need to apologise for both taking liberty of feeding her baby without her consent and for reacting the way you did when she became upset.

As she won't answer you phone calls , you could try to do this via a letter.

Good luck!

Mmm. That is so tricky in this day and age. We have certainly erased all the communal things of our tribal origins. I think I would be miffed (slightly put out) but not LIVID. It would probably perturb me, but I wouldn't go nuts about it. What stopped you from mixing up some formula, or a drink of water?
When you're not breast feeding any longer, it's quite an 'ooky' thing to think of another person getting nutrition from your boob - completely natural even sublime at the time, but ticklish even to think about when you're not. Feeding somebody's infant during one hour is not a matter of life or death. Shove a toy at her, distract her with some crazy faces and fill a bottle with water until her mama gets back. Overnight, another story.
jx

QUOTE (spikey~8 @ 16/10/2009, 02:34 PM)

Anyhoo, anyone else got a suggestion for mending a very broken relationship?

Yeah TBH that's the topic... enough bashing of the lady. What's done is done... how would you fix it if you were in her situation?

Personally I'd say sorry, show that I understand the "risks" involved, but also assert that I did it in good faith, and that the "risks" are quite low (I'm not gonna let her walk all over me...) Maybe as a joke I'd check whether any damage was done... if she can't forgive and forget over such a small thing... imagine her with bigger things!

If that doesn't work... I'd just write her off as a b!tch... her loss... not yours. When she comes crawling back asking for free childcare/help with her problems... I'd do exactly what she's doing now... "no chance."

There's heaps of people like that in the world who love to stomp all over you when you make mistakes (as if they never make mistakes themselves) the best medicine for them is the cold shoulder because they ALWAYS (I mean ALWAYS) come crawling back.

But this friend obviously doesn't want or need a wet nurse OR the services of the milk bank...so totally irrelevant to the situation here & the ladies who have responded are not b**ches either,

IMO this is the last thing she should have done! What if there was some type of intolerance? I would be far more furious with someone experimenting on my BF baby with formula for the first time, than to have her give my baby a feed of breast milk:annoyed:
OP--
There were a couple of mistakes made , the first one was for the mother of the baby to go out without leaving some solid plan as to what to do in the event of the baby being unsettled. Your friend is certainly NOT off the hook here.
The next mistake I think was that there was no discussion about whether the friend was contactable by phone so that you could call her back to her baby if needed-----I believe she was ONLY shopping afterall ?

I would never ask anyone to mind my breast fed baby without a back up plan, nor would I let anyone baby sit my baby unless I trusted her 100% to make the right decision in the event of an unforseen event.
I would choose someone I believed was on the 'same page' as me, someone I knew would not intentionally harm my baby.
You call her a close friend, I query that, close friends find forgiveness and I am afraid on your behalf, as a friend of hers you should not have been so flippant about her distress when you saw how angry she was about what you did.
Clearly there are many varied opinions on this issue, each of us needs to respect each others thoughts without judgement--there is clearly no right and wrong when there are so many variations in the acceptance of wet nursing.

As a midwife I know the benefits of 'sharing milk' with those babies who do better with EBM than formula, I also know the actual chance of this baby coming to any harm from what you did is tiny.
I am a huge supporter of and an extended breast feeder myself and would have definitely preferred a close friend of mine to give any of my babies a breast feed rather than a bottle of formula. To me, seeing an empty formula bottle and my sleeping baby would have been far more confronting BUT OP, this wasnt to be with your friend.
If there is any chance of repairing this friendship then firstly you must validate her distress--this does not mean you have to understand the way she feels but you must acknowledge the fact that you did the wrong thing IN HER EYES.
If your friend is not interested in hearing why you made that choice and understanding that whilst you made the wrong decision as far as she was concerned, that you actually did what you did in the absence of any clear direction from her and believing it was better for her baby.
THEN the ball is in her court, if she can NOT find it within herself to forgive you even when she trusted you with the life of her precious baby, then I am sorry but IMO I think her anger is disproportionate to the offence and sadly you will need to move on.
True friends work through their differences and find forgiveness, true friendships are way too valuable to be willing to throw one away because of miscommunication and as her baby came to no harm and the chance of there being any harm in the future is miniscule then her being right is clearly more important to her than her friendship to you.

^^^^^^


Thank you, thank you... thank you!!!!
Listen and take heed... this person knows their stuff!!!! Definitely a professional!

Hi Soontobegran,

The writer didn't say she couldn't contact the baby's Mum, and she didn't say the Mum hadn't said what to do if the baby woke up hungry. She just said the baby woke up hungry and she automatically put it to her breast. Personally I think the baby's mother probably said something like "call me if she wakes up hungry, or if you need me" and the sitter just ignored that and breastfed the baby so as not to "disturb" her friend. I've had many babies and kids left with me and the mothers ALWAYS say to call them! I think the writer just bypassed her brain when she decided to breastfeed her friend's baby on the spur of the moment.

Oh, and I totally agree with you about it being a huge no-no for a babysitter to potentially introduce a BF baby to formula without consultation. Although isn't there a big taste range in breast milk? Maybe a different breastmilk is as different as formula would be anyway!

From all I have read from the OP there is no suggestion that the mother of the baby gave her the direction to call her if the baby woke, so respectfully I think your suggestion that she did is purely speculation.
I do NOT believe that even the most dense and disrespectful person would breastfed someone elses baby if they HAD been given direction to do otherwise AND if they had surely they would not post on EB expecting to be given sympathy for being abandoned by her friend.
This was the OP'S GOOD friend, I am quite sure if the baby's mother had told her to call she would have done so.

How does this help fix the relationship?

In the friend's position, I think I wouldn't have been so concerned about the health risks, more about the emotional thing: I'd be thinking "this is MY baby to breastfeed" - there's so much emotion and closeness and evidence of your being a mother to this particular child that is associated with breastfeeding, that I would be feeling you had somehow tried to usurp me as a mother. This is particularly so as it's her first baby who (apparently) was about 4 months old. I remember with my first baby, I was EXTREMELY precious about who could do what to him, especially when he was very little.

Actually, I am saying something quite different to you. I am saying she needs to LET GO of her personal opinion of what she has done, stop asserting ANYTHING and look at it from the other mother's perspective. If she can truly do this, she has a basis for understanding why she has hurt her friend so badly, and might, just might, be able to restore the friendship.

Clearly SG Doesn't understand that for the particular mother involved this wasn't a little thing, it was a big thing. Consequently, ignoring that it is a big thing to the offended person means you will never restore the relationship. This is exactly my point - anyone who maintains this perspective when dealing with someone who doesn't share it, is doomed to failure when it comes to repairing a relationship.

As for throwing a tanty if you don't get your own way, JC, just don't go there....

I agree it's speculation, but it's based on my experience as a long term babysitter of friends and other mothers babies and kids in this mobile phone age, and that experience is 100% on the "call me" option being given. I also have experience of the very human habit of whitewashing. You're right that we would have been less sympathetic if JC reported she had been given the option of calling so just maybe she omitted that detail. She does say she didn't think about not breastfeeding. Besides, I would have thought she would have mentioned not being able to contact the Mum if she indeed wasn't able to. It also gives more weight to the other mother's reaction of going ballistic so I would put calling being an unused option as being comfortably in the realm of the possible or even likely. If there is more to go on than the original email though and we've got more primary source details than me then that's cool and I'd bow to that. I just have the initial email.

Whatever the details I think time is a great healer and if the friendship is worthy it will recover. It will recover faster if JC can get into her friend's headspace, or vice versa, but their views are pretty polarised. A promise to never do it again would be a good start but I expect she has already said that.

*yaaaaaaawn*

Since when did I have to say the same thing as you.

I understand the opposing opinion... I just don't agree with it. I think she over-reacted to something that isn't that serious.

We have 3 kinds of people here with regard to breast feeding:
1) People who kill become overly agitated and dump close friends over this.
2) Others who would forgive and forget if it happened to them.
3) Some who wouldn't even bat an eyelid over it (they might even actively encourage it)

Now... each to their own of course. I still think it's a complete over-reaction on behalf of the mother who dumped her friend. This is purely based on the fact that it's the most extreme measure that could have been taken...

I completely agree with this.
Until you can put yourself in someone elses position and at least try and look at it from their perspective, the friendship would never get truly back on its feet.

SG, who make you queen? Sorry, but please stop attempting to run the thread - you are not in any way assisting.

Most people have already offered constructive assistance. I am so sorry that you cannot absorb that valuable relationship management information - it does seem to have passed you by. It takes but a minute.

1. Mothers don't share a common view about breastfeeding another person's child.
2. For one mother it IS a big deal. For one mother it is not.
3. To mend a friendship, the mother for whom it is not a big deal, needs to take on board that it IS in fact a big deal to her friend and work as if this is true for her friend - no judgements!
4. By developing some empathy with her friend, and accepting her position is correct for her, they may move on.



Obviously you don't know a lot about relationships. You are still banging on about how its not serious. Sorry, but to one of the mothers involved it was. You are a classic demonstration of what NOT to do.

1. This mother had a different view.
2. This mother's view is substantially different to yours
3. Discounting and being dismissive of alternative opinions doesn't change minds or educate people - and it doesn't repair relationships.
4. You need to be able to take on board that the mother's view is right for her and her child, and forego the pleasure of being all judgemental, if you want to get a friendship repaired.

We keep mentioning this, because it IS the topic. It seems to me that you are having trouble with some very basic concepts today.

But the same works in the reverse... they both need to put each other in the other person's shoes.

1) Breast fed the other one's baby.
2) Over-reacted and refused to communicate after the event.

Compromise is the key. Ideally they could talk, and say this:
1) Sorry... I didn't know how you felt about me feeding your baby... I'm young and have learned from this.
2) That's okay... I over-reacted and I'm sorry.

---

End of the day, #2 needs to admit that she over-reacted and go back on her decision to ignore #1. If she doesn't think that she over-reacted, then the friendship will never re-ignite because she will continue to believe that it is reasonable to ignore a good friend.

Exactly! You're right on the money Sir G!!

Like many things that go wrong in relationships, this is an issue about communication.

I think many agree that there should have been more communication on what the friend should do if the baby was hungry or unsettled. But mostly there should have been better communication post the event. Unexpected and uncomfortable situations tend to crop up in life, and you have to respect that your views, styles and approaches are most likely going to be different from anyone elses. We are not all robots.

You should not have dismissed your friend's reaction, just because it seemed natural to you to BF her child and the right thing to do. As for the baby's mother - of course she might be shocked and horrified, her friend has overstepped a very personal boundary, one she perhaps never even considered. But everyone makes mistakes, and there was no ill-intention. Cutting off a friendship seems like a shame when you could both sit down and talk about it. I think any conversation from needs to start with an apology...

No, I do not agree with this.
Why should the mother - who's only 'crime' was to go shopping and leave the baby with a friend for an hour, have to try and look at it from her friends perspective.
She didnt POTENTIALLY endanger the babies health, JC did.
She was also further insulted by JC's reaction to the incident.

I'm sorry, but JC made the mistake, it is up to JC to see why the mother would be upset and to rectify it BY trying to see why the mother would be upset. And the mother is still obviously very upset as she is refusing to take the phone calls from JC.

I don't think she did over react at all.
A "Good Friend" would never cross the line like that in the first place, no matter how "natural" it felt.
You just DON'T do anything with someones child, particularly with your body parts, unless you ask permission to do so!

SG and friend, you really don't get 'empathy' do you? Its NOT a competition. There is NO compromise position - there is nothing to bargain about in this situation. You are wrong. The other mother doesn't have to "admit" that she overreacted, because for her circumstances it wasn't an overreaction it was a totally normal response.

The other mother doesn't need to put herself in anyone else's shoes, it was her baby and herself who were on the receiving end.

If JC gets it right, she may get a change to reopen communication. We keep pointing out that she should totally avoid the "but I was right and you were wrong" bits - which you don't seem to understand.

The other mother does not need to apologise for her reaction. It was a reasonable reaction in her circumstances. No one cares if it was or was not an overreaction - that is irrelevant. The reaction was valid for that person and everytime you seek to devalue it, you stuff up the apology and the potential for mending a relationship.

You might try taking a psych subject or two around this area. It seems your understanding is a bit limited, even in the most basic terms.

You're right she doesn't...
But this relationship will never be fixed unless she does.

Well, if you don't care what people do with your kids as long as you don't have to look after them yourself that's fine, but lots of us do care....and gosh but we seem to be in the majority. Go figure. The only thing JC's friend did wrong was think that JC shared her attitude to child raising. Now they know they have different approaches they can reassess where they go from there. I do wonder though how long it will be before the friend trusts anyone with her baby again.

Completely agree. Why is it the mother's responsibility to patch things up when JC stepped over the line?

Recently I had a falling out with a friend. She did something which I believe counts as stepping over the line. I have cut all contact but not long ago she sent me a text wanting me to email her to explain myself. Excuse me? I did nothing wrong, she's quite aware of what she did and if she wants to patch things up she's more than welcome to apologise.

So, my advice to JC is to recognise that she deeply upset her friend and overstepped a line. Apologise to her friend for breastfeeding her friend's child without permission as well as upsetting her. The friend doesn't owe JC anything.