Has anyone heard any further details regarding this? I heard on the radio this morning that the child was found in a dam and was 14 months old. This came I think they said 12 months after their 13 month old child was found drowned in a cattle trough.

I have had a look on news.com but they only give the headline, no further details. I can't remember the name of the Toowoomba paper to look online.

your kidding they have lost two babies due to drowing in the last twelve months omg..

I just found the story, her daughter drowned at 13 months in November 2004, their son drowned at 14 months yesterday.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0...63-3102,00.html

This poor family, how distraught they must be. My thougts and prayers are with them.

I have some thoughts on this but I dont want to start a debate or the thread to be closed so all I'm going to say is that its very very sad!!

And I hate to say it, but I agree.

How very very sad, those poor little people. So so heart breaking

I'm at a loss as to how this could happen twice. Like PPs have said, I don't want to start a debate on this, but I'm sad...and I'm angry.

How terrible. Those poor children. how heartbreaking

The poor children, loosing their life so young
Heart breaking for those who love then

ETA sig taken down out of respect

I'm glad others said first, but I too will add that this is unbelievably sad!
Wonder if further details will be released, I haven't seen much regarding details

I will also say how sad it is and I did cry when I heard the news tonight but as Kate has said I will leave my other thoughts so that this thread is not locked.

Just awful............

I hate to sound naive but why would the thread be locked for expressing and discussing a very real concern.

There does not need to be reference to this particular situation, but if what you are all saying is what I am thinking - it's a real illness and needs to be discussed, and people who are not aware need to be made aware.

A discussion like this could save lives.

The only way that I can see that the thread is locked is if unfair accusations are made and it turns into a free-for-all

Ok - off my soapbox having successfully squirmed out of putting a name to 'the issue'

Stories like these break my heart...what could have been done to prevent this from happening...escpecially twice!?

What could be done?

There are inherent dangers living on a farm. The most obvious is dams/troughs.

In suburbia you cannot have a pool that is not fenced VERY safely, the same rules don't apply to dams etc. Hence you need to be extra extra extra cautious.

My sisters had two dams within 50 mts of the house. One immediately beside the garden, (ie other side of a standard paddock fence), the other over two paddock fences. It means being extra, incredibly incredibly cautious.

My thoughts on hearing this were if I had lost a child to drowning then I would be super paranoid and vigorous in making sure that my other children knew of the dangers and were never in the situation where they may drown as well. I think I would be almost loopy with paranoia.

Completely agree! That's why I can't get my head around it.

Hi Christeenm, the Toowoomba paper is called The Chronicle.

This is such a sad and tragic occurance. Poor children. If it is genuine accidents then I feel deeply for the family. I really don't know how you could cope with this.

I just didnt want to come out and say what I thought about TWO of her children drowning at pretty much the SAME age and her finding them on both occasions!

The second drowning has only just happened and is being investigated thoroughly by the police from the sounds of it, so I dont want to go shooting my mouth off about what I think may have occurred and it turn out that its simply 2 tragic and devastating accidents that this poor family has had to deal with.

When the police finalise their report on what has happened and if there is any connection to the death of the 1st and 2nd child and any mental illness the mother may have then I'd be happy to discuss it further in detail.

I just dont see any point in discussing what I think 'may' have happened until the police finish their investigations.

I really hope my suspicions are proven wrong though!!

What a horror story. Those poor little babies.

Surely there is only one Kathleen Folbigg in this world. Gee, I hope so!

I have also been thinking about this and just can't get it how it could happen TWICE!

We got rid of our fish pond and pool so there would be no possibility of DS drowning in them. We also have padlocked gates, so that DS can absolutely have no chance of "escape".

If you live on a farm you need to be even more careful.

Anyway I guess we will have to wait and see what comes of the investigations.

I feel incredibly sorry for the family and the babies though.

Christie

Just thought I would pop my head in and thank you all for not turning this into 'casting of suspicions' session.

I do hope we can keep it that way... I know it's hard not to wonder and to discuss the theories is very tempting (as one does) but please keep up the efforts of just expressing sympathy

I read it in the paper today, and the photo that they showed of her she didn't looked too distressed! I would be an absolute basket case if just one of my boys drowned, let alone both of them, within a year.

Before reading this thread, I didn't think along the lines of that she may have done something. I did however think that by golly, if it's happened once already you would be super duper vigilant not to have it happen again.

In Qld dams are supposed to be fenced! It is part of the legislation for pool fencing. http://www.poolfencing.qld.gov.au/docs/Poo...ines.pdf#page=7 section 1.6 part c) ii)



Also on the same page section 1.6 part a)

Have a pond deeper that this in Qld is should be fenced!

Toddler's family hits back

23.03.2007
By Nikkii Joyce

"IT could happen to anyone," the family of drowned toddler Lincoln Cooper said last night, hitting back at insinuations and speculation their double loss was anything but a terrible tragedy..

"You can't stand there and hold their hand, 24 hours a day. Could it (happen twice)? Absolutely, this could have happened to anyone," a family member said last night.

The 14-month-old's death on Tuesday afternoon has shattered the Cooper family, who have struggled for normality since losing Lincoln's older sister in similar heartbreaking circumstances in 2004.

Matilda too was just 14-months-old, when she drowned.



Lawrie and Janine, and their four children Samantha (17), Raelene (14), William (12) and Elizabeth (6) will get through it, according to the family member, minute by minute.

In a statement to The Chronicle last night, Mr and Mrs Cooper spoke of the little boy who loved adventures and was his father's constant shadow.

"Because of our earlier loss, Lincoln was very special to all of us  we as a family found great joy in his life," the statement read.

"Lincoln loved to go with dad to collect the mail and pick up the children from the school bus." Mr Cooper had gone to pick up the children from the school bus at the gate, while Mrs Cooper was doing the housework.

On their return, it was apparent Lincoln was missing, Mrs Cooper finding her son face up in the old bath tub used as a trough for the calves.

The grieving parents sent a special thank you last night to the paramedics, doctors and nurses and people in general, who had shown them support.

"They will get through it as best they can, it's twice as bad with the loss of Matilda, and it's even harder to go on, but they will take it minute by minute," the family member said.

I really feel sorry for this family but as another farming family it is rather difficult to fence water troughs for animals. Kids will climb gates and be curious. From all reports its a silly error of judgement. Father thought Lincoln was with mum and vice versa.

The police will submit their investigations findings to the coroner as does with ALL CHILD deaths in QLD. the family will go through the same investigations as parents would if their babies were SIDS victims.

Yes, it is not possible to fence off troughs, it would make them impossible for the animals to get.

That is why it is just so important to have fences around the house and WATCH

It is a terrible tragedy

I grew up on a farm, and my sisters have property around their houses.

I am wondering why after the death of the first child they didn't put fences up around the house so it didn't happen a second time. Twice in the space of 12-18 months is just weird.

Just too sad.. I would hate for there to be more to this tragedy than meets the eye though. I sometimes wonder now how my parents managed with having 2 dams and a creek so close to our house while we were little. I said to my dh that I'd be constantly worrying if I were in that situation with my 2 girls. So glad I live in suburbia at times.

Is this true? I live rurally and many many properties around here have dams and none of them that I have seen are fenced! It would be hard for the animals to get in to drink!

I feel very very badly for this family. I can only imagine the pain they must be feeling.

I find this kind of comment really offensive. That's the kind of lynch mob mentality that happened to Joanne Lees and Lindy Chamberlain. Why do people feel the need to jump in with these kinds of comments immediately - before the full story is even known?

I went to school with the father of this child, and my brother lives close to them. According to him, the house paddock was fenced, and the water trough was outside the fence.

Absolutely bloody tragic, and before people start casting aspersions, let's give the police half a second to find out what actually happened. And if you think tragic accidents can't happen, no matter how vigilant we are, you are sadly mistaken.

These toddlers would have to have the most outstanding gross motor skills to climb a fence at the age of 13-14 months. Most toddlers are only just walking at that age.

And no, if you are truly vigilant these kinds of accidents don't happen. They don't happen once, and they certainly don't happen twice!

I read the article that was cut and pasted here in this thread. The father thought the child was with his mother, the mother thought the child was with the father. At all times I know where my kids are. I don't think! I know!! That is vigilance!!

I have seen first hand where not knowing where your child is at all times leads too. Where parents and even grandparents assume that the child is with some other adult. My father lives on a canal on the gold coast. My sister's family was visiting and her daughter aged 5 at the time was on the pontoon, unsupervised. Everyone assumed she was with someone else, until one of the neighbours brought her to the door, soaking wet. She had fallen into the canal and no-one in the house was any the wiser. Luckily for my sister her daughter didn't drown. It certainly was a wake up call. My father went right out and fenced his property so you can't get to the canal from the house without going through a pool gate. As I said before, I know where my children are at all times!! They are never out of my or my husband's sight.

So you can take my statement as offencive, if you like. You can call me the head honcho of the lynch mob. It's not going to change my opinion on the matter.

And for the record, I never doubted Joanne Lees, or Lindy Chamberlain. I also haven't said that this mother has killed her children, you have misconstrued what I have actually said, and made an assumption. I said I believe she wasn't vigilant.

I totally agree with you Lu.

My 2 y.o at the time, was hit by a car and nearly died.

I can tell you that no way in hell while my younger children are in my care will this tragedy happen again.

My heart goes out to the family, I hope with time they can heal, twice is just so heart breaking.... I try to keep an eye on my kids the best I can, I know where they are 99% of the time, but still I would dread if soemthing would ever happen to them.

it is so sad for those poor babies.
I also will avoid the controversial thoughts that enter my mind. I would love to say them though but I wont.
I hope it is nothing terrible involved but I hope she is sterilised if it is.

This is a quote from what the parents said. I absolutely disagree with this! The baby was only 13 months old!! If you are not holding their hand then who is?? They are way to young to look after themselves.

The quote above reminds me of the family in Brisbane whos two children were run over by a train last year, they said a similar thing but their children were allowed to go 'walkabout' from dawn til dusk everyday.

I am really astonished at some of the comments coming from you people

This woman has lost TWO of her babies and all you lot can do is cast bloody aspersions as to what "you" think but will not say happened.
How dare you.
You sound like all perfect parents who have never once let your child out of your sight for a mere few seconds - because that is all it takes.
Yes I do <_<

FWIW my mum is one of "those" parents you are describing, having taken her eyes off my brother and thinking the back door was locked but tragically it wasn't and she was the one that found her 21mth old baby face down in a pool, dead. 33yrs later and she still has to live with this guilt she has put on herself and I can tell you it has not been an easy road for any of us.

Don't judge this poor mum as she is going to be judging herself for this till the day she dies, she needs kindness and support to help her get through this terrible grief.

You're absolutely correct! I am one of those perfect parents that never lets my children out of her sight. You say it like it's a bad thing.

I feel huge sorrow for those poor children. Who didn't have a parent vigilant enough to protect them from the dangers of their own property. They are the one's that have paid the ultimate price. They have lost their precious lives, before really getting a chance to live!

If I wasn't one of these perfect parents and I did take my eyes off my children, and one of them drowned, got run over. No I would never stop blaming myself. And rightly so!!

Right, let me get this - you don't go to the toilet ever alone, you are in their room at all times while they are sleeping,you don't ever leave a room without them etc etc.



You have read my previous post and know that my mother paid the ultimate price.

Accidents happen to everyone ,even parents who thinkthat they don't let their kids out of sight for even a seconds.

I know where my children are at all times! I have a pool in my back yard. I don't think, or assume that the pool gate is locked. I know it is! I don't think or assume that the key for it is out of reach of my children. I know it is! I don't think or assume my back door is locked. I know it is!! And I don't assume that the key for the back door is out of my children's reach. I know it is!!!

No, I am not always in the same room as my children. Yes, I do do things around the house, where they are not within my line of sight, but they do remain within hearing distance. I can hear them playing in their playroom.

They never go in the back yard without me, or my husband. Just doesn't happen. It's not impossible to do, you know?

I know the dangers of back yard swimming pools and young kids. So I do what I must to ensure their safety. I do understand that accidents happen. Yes, I have seen my children fall over and hurt themselves right in front of my eyes. Not much I can do to prevent that. I not about to carry them both everywhere so they don't fall over. That said, children do not drown if they are being supervised responsively!!! Just doesn't happen! It is not an accident. The onus does fall squarely on the shoulders of the parents. These parents, in this article, know the dangers on their property. They already have one dead child to prove it. They didn't learn from their mistake, and it's happened again. It is absolutely tragic!!! It's absolutely deplorable when people pass it off as "accidents happen". It actually makes me feel sick.

Anyway, I'm not going to keep arguing with you on this point. Hopefully more people will realise that young children can't be just left to their own devices around water. That they start being more responsible for their own childrens safety. And get over this attitude of..."Oh well, accidents happen".

Yeah - but twice??!!!

My 12 month old is never out of my sight and even if she is in her cot (in the next room) I have a monitor with me. She is always in the room with me and I can see her. If I go to the loo she follows me anyway. Call me paranoid but I would never assume that she can 'hold her own hand' like this father has said. She is just a baby!! She doesn't even play in our yard on her own and we certainly don't live on a farm!!!

It doesn't take a 'few seconds' to drown - it takes 2 minutes, plus the child has to have time to wander off and get to the water in the first place.

You are a nasty piece of work, sorry but I cannot get my head around your attitude.
Why don't you come and visit my mum sometime and tell her to her face what a crap mother she is, or do you only attack people on WWW where you don't have to see their faces and know the pain that a comment like yours above can cause.



Well what the f*ck is it then???

You just don't get it do you because luckily for you , you have never known people who have had these things happen.

TBH I find your attitude against parents that have lost a child in a tragic accident deplorable.

Oh I just don't understand how one mother can be so nasty about another's loss of their child.

I know this is an upsetting topic and everyone feels very strongly about it... but if we could hold back on the comments that are obviously upsetting to other members it would be most appreciated...

I am currently giving consideration to putting a temporary lock on this thread as it is becoming very emotional.

Pretty much everyone has had the same thoughts on the subject... That is only natural under the ciscumstances...

But at the end of the day, seperate from this specific story... no matter how you look at it... Accidents DO happen... Parents blame themselves, hate themselves, punish themselves more than anyone could possibly imagin... Please give consideration to anyone who has had to suffer such a tragedy when you comment... You can be the most vigilent person in the world but that doesn't mean that one day... just one day for 5 seconds you won't be distracted and something won't happen...

Poor babies. It only takes 18 seconds to drown

Em

That exact thing happened to me and my 2.5 year old walked across the street and into a neighbours house to visit. Suffice to say we have 'procedures' in place now to ensure THAT never happens again.

Thankyou Nut for understanding.

When it is close to home and you live with parents that have had numerous nervous breakdowns and another was an alcoholic due to their tragedy it can be upsetting when people think these parents have just got on with their lives as if their child was an expendable commodity.

Lu, you have no idea what my mother and father and what every parent who has lost a child in similar circumstances goes through every day just to get through that day. Your remarks are very cutting to these parents and families that have LIVED this nightmare.

I certainly do have compassion and sympathy for those that loose their children in unfortunate circumstances totally beyond their control.

You can personally attack me if you think it will make you feel better. I have not made this personal about you. You have decided to take my opinion on why these sorts of incidents happen, about you. This is not about you.

You're the one that has made this personal. You were the one to quoted me, trying to disparage my way of parenting. There are others in this thread that also think along the same lines as myself.

I also didn't come out and say your mother was one of those parents. You offered that infomation yourself. Is that supposed to make me feel guilty for my opinion? Perhaps calling a nasty piece of work is supposed to cause that reaction in me? The tanty your throwing certainly isn't doing it!

I would also like to point out that I totally disagree that my children are alive purely by luck!

This is obviously a very raw subject for you, that you can't have a rational discussion about without loosing the plot emotionally. Perhaps it may be best for you to take a break.

Lu, I understand what you're saying. Accidents do happen. Sometimes things can't be avoided, but the drowning of a 13 month old should never happen. I do feel very much for this poor family, but just saying that it can't be avoided isn't going to help anyone.

I have had similar debates with members of my family. They wanted me to let my 2 1/2 year old play in a backyard unsupervised that I know he could get out of (no fence) straight onto a busy road. They said that I was being a paranoid parent and to just chill out. I find that attitude very disturbing.

Why would anyone suggest you let a 2 1/2yo play in a yard unsupervised that has no fence?

MAD

Costanze - you didn't answer my question. How does it happen twice? Did it happen TWICE in your family?? No because your parents learnt the hard way to supervise their children properly. This family obviously didn't which is why this thread is here. If it had only happened once, we would all be very sympathethic, but twice????? Come on!



I don't know how you can possibly know what Lu is thinking. You are making quite a presumption there!



You said Lu is being nasty, but what she said in the above quote is a fact. I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

I too find that disturbing and it makes me wonder how another adult could think that

As for the accidents do/don't happen, well they certainly can happen to anyone no argument BUT for the same accident to happen twice and for the father to say about not holding his childs hand 24/7 so to speak... well I have a 2yr old and I still couldn't imagine thinking she could look after herself and not get into danger.

A child really needs to be supervised and you need to know "not think" they are being taken care of.

I have never assumed my daughter is with her father nor he with me, even if plans change at the last minute the other is always made aware who's care she is in to prevent something awful happening An accident could certainly happen to us even, but it wouldn't be due to an assumption of that kind.

I can only hope if they have any younger babies that a safer/gated or supervisory plan is in place, surely they couldn't have the same accident a third time.

Costanza - fwiw my mum has been in your mums situation, but both of theirs is different because the SAME accident didn't happen twice, whether it is odd or expecting too much skills wise from a toddler once should have been enough to become over protective enough to prevent it happening again

I'll leave it there, but felt the need to add my thoughts.

Again where is your compassion????

So this family is not deserving of any sympathy because unfortunately two of their children have died in similar circumstances.

What if this was one of your friends, sister,SIL????

Remember these are people we are talking about with FEELINGS who have lost their child.

And I can't answer your question because I don't know why but it has happened and a little compassion for a family would be nice.

How much understanding would you have if say 4 children from the same family had drowned 1 to 2 years apart???

Would you not be suspicious???

Or would you think that they just dont supervise their children well enough???

I think all these thoughts are perfectly normal to have, under the circumstances.