[SarahM72]

This is so offensive. Yes people do have a choice. They have an option of applying to another school (albeit another public school) and that is a choice. I know a great many people who choose one local public school over another local public school and I live in an area that is considered far less salubrious than Auburn, Guildford, or Lakemba! People can choose the public school best suited to their needs and those of their families and in my education district very few requests for an 'out of area' enrolment are turned down.

Yes I suppose you're right. I guess that's why when my kids went to school in Sydney there was hardly a white child at their school. Leave all the "ethnics" to their ghetto.

Everyone is welcome. I suspect that those who feel excluded because some parents might choose to drink moderate amounts of alcohol at the event, would in all likelihood feel excluded even if alcohol was banned. There will always be an excuse/reason why some people feel they are excluded.

Public schools in Australia are a very comfortable place for white people of culturally Christian background. The whole way school is organised is based around stuff that is comfortable and culturally appropriate for them. The school days, the school hours, the uniform, what is taught, how it is taught, who teaches, the food, the drink, the extra subjects and special activities. And because of this school is a very exclusionary place for a great many parents and students who are not of this background. Children like mine (Aboriginals or "ethnics") are forced to all the adapting. Which is unfair really as they are required by law to attend school. They pretty much feel excluded most of the time. They are not making "excuses". But so much stuff is just so inappropriate for them, yet they still get in there and do it. They already give up so much to try and do so much which is foreign to them to be included and try to get along with the school.

So if alcohol was served at school functions which weren't compulsary we would of course have a choice as to whether or not to go. We may say we didn't care, because we do say that about alot of things, as otherwise we are complainers trying to change the great Australian way of life, lol. And of course we want to be polite, so no one hates us anymore than they already do. So if we didn't go, it is just one more thing we feel excluded from. And if we did go we would still be excluded because all the people having just "one or two" glasses are not really wanting to talk to us anyway. Once they start drinking they just want to hang around with their mates being "jolly".

How are you excluded because other people choose to do something you choose not to?

I choose not to wear maxi dresses as I find them terribly unflattering and mostly foul. I also choose not to watch Idol, because I think it's brainless and utterly inane. I choose to not eat custard, because it is evil, and yet I have no objection to others doing all of these things, even around me and the children at a school event.

I don't mind if you speak terribly wrong English around my kids, I don't care if you choose to smack your child in front of me and my children. I am ok with you eating non-free-range eggs where my entire family can see you doing so. You can even eat kangaroo if you are so inclined.

Just because I have a personal objection to all of the above does not mean that I can't deal with you exercising your right to do any of them in my presence. Even if my kids are there, although it's a close call on the cage eggs.

I would, if it seemed appropriate at the time, use this as an educational experience for my children. Look, kids, there's someone smacking their child. We don't approve of that and we think they're utterly sh*yte parents for doing it but aren't I the best mummy ever because I don't smack you and am clearly superior because I am capable of disciplining you without smacking?

Wow, just wow. Just as an example, my ex speaks nine languages. He may not speak the best of English. So nice of you to not "mind" him speaking his bad English if he does make the effort to overcome his shyness about his English to go to a school function at a school which his children are forced to go to by law. And yeah, so white middle class to object to eating Skippy. As I said before, schools are a place of exclusion for so many parents and children. We "ethnics" do all the adapting and no one else seems to do a thing to make schools more inclusive. We just have to fit in.

Sarah, most ppl are asking you to explain why ppl would feel excluded if alcohol was served at a school function.

You are saying that in a public school more ppl would feel excluded (don't agree, but whatever)

But, what makes them feel excluded in the first place? Why would they not feel welcome?

'Cos more public school parents are alcoholic and would feel bullied?

Hopefully have explained a bit above. Alot of kids have to take on a whole new culture at school and they do so, without complaining, and often struggle day after day after day. Yet people are upset because I merely suggested that giving up alcohol for a few hours at a school function may serve to be more inclusionary?

This should give you some idea of what at lot of non-White kids need to cope with at school when it comes to having to adapt.

This post has been edited by SarahM72: 13/04/2012, 01:48 PM

[Julie3Girls]

Public schools in Australia are a very confortable place for white people of culturally Christian background. The whole way school is organised is based around stuff that is comfortable and culturally appropriate for them. The school days, the school hours, the uniform, what is taught, how it is taught, who teaches, the food, the drink, the extra subjects and special activities. And because of this school is a very exclusionary place for a great many parents and students who are not of this background. Children like mine (Aboriginals or "ethnics") are forced to all the adapting, even though they are forced by law to attend school. They pretty much feel excluded most of the time. They are not making "excuses". But so much stuff is just so inappropriate for them, yet they still get in there and do it. They already give up so much to try and do so much which is foreign to them to be included and try to get along with the school.

You obviously have big issues with the school system. Although I'm not exactly sure how the school days and hours can be considered exclusionary based on enthic background ...

But, I guess my question is, if things are inappropriate for your culture at the school, do you get involved and try and change things?

Do you attend the P&C meetings, and suggest activities or school events that fit in with your culture, and to try and bring it into the school? You could even suggest that alcohol be banned in some events if your school is one that does allow alcohol. I admit, I haven't actually seen alcohol at our school functions (at the school), only at the adults only functions outside the grounds.

Do you volunteer for the canteen, join the committee and get the menu added to, with items that would be more acceptable? Our school canteen has made a lot of changes recently, mainly because of a few mums who are willing to do the work involved, like making homemade foods, organising for Sushi dishes for example. I've read posts about the things some schools offer in their canteens, and there is an incredible range.

We have a strong multicultural focus, with events organised.

A school is a community, and the parents who are involved are what makes it what it is.
You want the school to change, get in there and get involved. Be the organiser. Or at very least, be a willing helper and give suggestions.
Particularly in a school which has a high number of children from different cultures, that is an ideal situation where you could have the backing to make changes.

[SarahM72]

You obviously have big issues with the school system. Although I'm not exactly sure how the school days and hours can be considered exclusionary based on enthic background ...

For example, the school days and calendar are arranged around Christian holidays and days of worship and Christian norms which are quite difficult for some kids to work around. eg Kids of non-Christian background who have different needs are punished for skipping school if, for example they attend a funeral of someone interstate and it needs to take a few weeks for cultural reasons, or some kids regularily skip Friday afternoons for non-Christian worship and are told off for wagging etc.

That's the problem. So many people just can't see the inherent difficulties in the school system for kids who are not of a certain background. The days, hours and calender truly are a difficulty for a lot of kids. Just because you can't see it doesn't make the problems go away. ACtually because you, and people like you, can't see it, it makes it more of a problem.

[Bam1]

And because that many parents do not get to choose to send their kids to a public school, especially in some of the more diverse areas like I have mentioned, I do think that school events should try and be as inclusive as possible.

I don't think anyone would argue that public (& private) schools should be as inclusive as possible but being inclusive does not mean ensuring that everything that happens is okay with absolutely everybody. It means ensuring there is a choice - a vegetarian option at the sausage sizzle, non-alcoholic drinks as well as beer and wine, ensuring some events are held at night instead of all during the day, respecting other's culture (this does not mean having to follow the rules of their culture though).

Some schools do this well others not so well but an alcohol ban is not going to make a school more inclusive than what it already is. I would dare say that at my DD's public school, which does not allow alcohol, is the most exclusive school I've ever seen, it is very uptight and does a good job at excluding kids who don't fit the white middle class mould (mine included). Part of this is because its always been quite "white" and not used to different cultures. I'm hoping my involvement in the P&C might help change this. If it doesn't I will have to consider moving my DD but its not a fault of the School systen just the particular school's history.

This post has been edited by Bam1: 13/04/2012, 02:13 PM

[Bam1]

For example, the school days and calendar are arranged around Christian holidays and days of worship and Christian norms which are quite difficult for some kids to work around. eg Kids of non-Christian background who have different needs are punished for skipping school if, for example they attend a funeral of someone interstate and it needs to take a few weeks for cultural reasons, or some kids regularily skip Friday afternoons for non-Christian worship and are told off for wagging etc.

That's the problem. So many people just can't see the inherent difficulties in the school system for kids who are not of a certain background. The days, hours and calender truly are a difficulty for a lot of kids. Just because you can't see it doesn't make the problems go away. Actually because you, and people like you, can't see it, it makes it more of a problem.

You can't be serious - we can't change the system for every single person's issues with it - it wouldn't function. I know the African side of my family do struggle with the system but to arrange it better for them would mean it wouldn't work for others. I know my best friends who are Thai struggle to get their children to school on time but a 10am start would mean my children waste 4 hours before school even starts.

Even white christians might need to go to a funeral interstate and I'm sorry if you feel your child needs a couple of weeks off for cultural reasons then it is up to you to work around it rather than the school. Skipping is wrong not matter what the reason, a parent ensuring their child has an allowable absence for cultural/personal whatever reason is completely different.

As a PP has said schools develop their culture over time and it usually does reflect the area, Unfortunately the system can never be flexible enough to suit everybody but most do find that they can work with the school even if it does take more effort at times.

[SarahM72]

I'm not saying change the system for every single kid. I'm just saying be aware of the difficulties some kids face, and just be aware who is doing the most adapting for who, before you start complaining about people not fitting in or whatever.

And skipping is only "wrong no matter what the reason" because someone else has dictated rules that work for some and not for others. Most kids of ethnic background do their best to fit in. But as I said before it is mostly a one way street in regards to who is adapting to what. By this I'm not meaning that it should be changed (God forbid anything is made easier for those annoying ethnics ), but just meaning be aware of the numerous difficulties some kids face just in simply turning up for school during a week/calendar that is not suited to them.

[Julie3Girls]

That's the problem. So many people just can't see the inherent difficulties in the school system for kids who are not of a certain background. The days, hours and calender truly are a difficulty for a lot of kids. Just because you can't see it doesn't make the problems go away. ACtually because you, and people like you, can't see it, it makes it more of a problem.

You know, there is a reason I, and people like me, can't see it. It's because it's not part of our background, our culture. And people like YOU don't bother to explain it. Believe it or not, people are not mind readers, and we don't all instantly know everything cultural need from every different culture.

For example, the school days and calendar are arranged around Christian holidays and days of worship and Christian norms which are quite difficult for some kids to work around. eg Kids of non-Christian background who have different needs are punished for skipping school if, for example they attend a funeral of someone interstate and it needs to take a few weeks for cultural reasons, or some kids regularily skip Friday afternoons for non-Christian worship and are told off for wagging etc

Ok, school holidays are not just arranged around christian holidays. The school year is broken into 4 terms. The long summer holidays in this country happen to fall at the same time as Christmas. But the main reason for that long school holiday is due to the summer weather.

Yes, Christmas and Easter are holidays based on christian beliefs. But that is a grand total of 4 public holidays.

Not sure what you mean by being punished for taking off time for a funeral - that surely isn't just restricted to people of ethnic background. I have relatives interstate and overseas, so I would be in the same position if I needed to attend their funerals.
Same with taking weeks off school for whatever reason - you can arrange it. My SIL took her kids out for 6 weeks, she made arrangements to get work from the school for the children.

Regularly skipping Friday afternoons ... I can understand why the school isn't happy with it, and you surely can't expect every school to suddenly finish early on Friday to cater for it.
BUT there should be a way for these parents to work with the school to find a solution.

This post has been edited by Julie3Girls: 13/04/2012, 02:19 PM

[SarahM72]

You know, there is a reason I, and people like me, can't see it. It's because it's not part of our background, our culture. And people like YOU don't bother to explain it. Believe it or not, people are not mind readers, and we don't all instantly know everything cultural need from every different culture.

I have explained it, and people are getting cross and arguing and insisting they know better. So yes, most of the time it is just not worth explaining. Just like IRL, lol.

[Julie3Girls]

It is worth explaining.

I wasn't aware that there were religions where Friday afternoons were needed for worship for example.

People aren't insisting they know better, some of us are just pointing out that some of the issues are not specifically a cultural problem.
There are many different situations where the set school hours might not suit. Where an individual might have something on that conflicts with school.
My DD had speech therapy for the first year and half of her schooling. The only appt I could get was during school time. So yes, she had time off once a week, or once a fortnight. But I talked to the school about it, gave them a written letter about it. Not once was "wagging" an issue, or "skipping", because she wasn't. She was out of school with her parents permission.

Most schools will work with parents. But it takes effort and communication both ways.

This post has been edited by Julie3Girls: 13/04/2012, 03:24 PM

[heffalumpsnwoozl...]

Most schools will work with parents. But it takes effort and communication both ways.

It would be a very rare (and brave) school indeed that wouldn't interact with parents in order to embrace the cultural diversity of their students. There is a vast difference between a parent contacting the school and arranging for their child to have Friday afternoons off on religious grounds, vs a child disappearing every Friday afternoon with no explanation. Likewise, most schools would be very happy to allow a child a few weeks off for a funeral - one girl I went to school with had 6 weeks off to go on holiday to DisneyWorld and the school was fine with it. The school was informed beforehand though, the child didn't just disappear for 6 weeks.

It's rather like work - if you arrange with your employer to have a month off to go on holiday, that's fine. If you just fail to show up to work for a month, that's job abandonment.

As for school dates and hours - well, they reflect the standard working week. Most office workers are Monday to Friday, same as school. School hours don't work well for anyone who isn't a SAHP IMO - families with both parents working full time have to make use of before and after school care or rely on family/friends for pickups. For those of us who work more than an hour away from the school, well we're still stuffed come pickup time. That's not a cultural thing, that's everybody. School holidays fall, as a PP said, over summer. Christmas happens to be in there, sure - and that's helpful, as most workers have some public holidays over that period, which again helps with care for school aged children. Ditto with Easter. Schools try to work with the way our society is, hence the talk that's been around recently of extending the school day to better allow for working parents.