[katyjane]

Throwing in my 2c worth -

Both 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2 give creational reasons that women are to submit to their husbands. As Ange very rightly explained about "head" and "origin" I think we shouldn't overlook this and think of equality necessarily as being the same as men. God-ordained roles are not about value or worth as a human but about order (as opposed to disorder). Christ submitted completely to God and we would never say he was without power. In fact what we say about him (in Phil 2) is that he had power but gave it up - for us.
There is a group around called "Equal but Different" which might be interesting to you OP. Not my cup of tea but I certainly don't disagree with them.
I don't think that the stay-home-mum/ housewife equivalent existed in biblical times. Subsistence living required all hands on deck to put food on the table I'd say. Not sure why we make this leap that Christian women are best off at home. I know that for my family at the moment being at home is the best thing, but I don't get that directly from the Bible.

Should my husband not be worthy to direct the family I am in no way obligated to follow his counsel. I am obligated only if he is following the Lord.

I think this might have been written in haste - this quotation needs a lot of explanation. What if someone is a believer and their husband is not? What might win someone over to Christ? Forceful agressive assertions of being right or love expressing itself through humble service? How do you define "worthy"?

This post has been edited by katyjane: 26/01/2012, 07:58 PM

[Saecularis Angel...]

I think this might have been written in haste - this quotation needs a lot of explanation. What if someone is a believer and their husband is not? What might win someone over to Christ? Forceful agressive assertions of being right or love expressing itself through humble service? How do you define "worthy"?

Without wishing to put words in howdo's mouth, I do believe she was discussing her situation where she understands her DH to fulfil a priestly role within the family. That in and of itself would take a whole stack of unpacking in the context of this conversation, because concepts of priesthood, leadership, teaching roles and so forth differ greatly between different groups of Christians.

Apart from that, I think there is a great danger in arguing the marriage relationship from that between the Son and the Father within the economy of salvation. Subordinationism is a heresy which misrepresents the nature of God as understood in Christianity, and to present Christ's kenosis as anything other than temporary, to fulfil the purposes of the whole Trinity, can lead to dangerous distortions in our understanding of human relationships.

[katyjane]

Ange, assuming that I have rightly understood your last paragraph (and I do not have a degree in theology, so I acknowledge that may be a very big assumption on my part) I would still say that regardless of whether one argues for or against order in the immanent trinity, the fact that the Son does subordinate himself to the Father in the economy points to the fact that being subordinate is hardly a bad thing.
If we can not believe that God is the God who reveals himself to us in Christ, exactly how can we know him? Obviously not a question to be debated further right here as it has moved far beyond what our various ideas of submission are, but I do wonder.

[howdo]

I think this might have been written in haste - this quotation needs a lot of explanation. What if someone is a believer and their husband is not? What might win someone over to Christ? Forceful agressive assertions of being right or love expressing itself through humble service? How do you define "worthy"?

I did not write it in haste. If you want an explanation I am happy to expand.

If someone is a believer and their husband is not - You ask what about it? I don't know what you want to know, sorry. I think you might mean how do you subject yourself to your husband if he is not Christian? In matters of religion, you do not. For example if my husband were to say "Right, no more church, I think we should all stop going." I would not agree and I would feel no problem in not submitting myself to his opinion/feelings/thoughts on the matter. If he insisted I would not feel obliged to stop. That is not following the Lord.

Very simplistic and open to a lot of "but what abouts -?" but it is the easiest way for me to explain as I don't know exactly what you are asking.

I don't know what winning someone over to Christ has to do with what I wrote, sorry.

How do I define worthy? Living within the tennets of my religion. There's a big list that I don't need to bore anyone with.

[Saecularis Angel...]

Ange, assuming that I have rightly understood your last paragraph (and I do not have a degree in theology, so I acknowledge that may be a very big assumption on my part) I would still say that regardless of whether one argues for or against order in the immanent trinity, the fact that the Son does subordinate himself to the Father in the economy points to the fact that being subordinate is hardly a bad thing.
If we can not believe that God is the God who reveals himself to us in Christ, exactly how can we know him? Obviously not a question to be debated further right here as it has moved far beyond what our various ideas of submission are, but I do wonder.

Absolutely I would say that Christ's example of humility and service is one to follow. What I was trying to say, though, is that Christ's obedience is not about his inherent being in relationship to the father, and nor can we argue from his example that a marriage ought to be ordered so that one partner is always subordinate, and the other always exercising authority. We can't take Christ's obedience as the pattern for wifeliness, as opposed to the pattern for mutual love between the partners in a marriage.

I think it's an important point because arguing that Christ's subordination is the pattern for wifely subordination has become quite popular, although there are fine scholars (such as Kevin Giles) who articulate well why this is a flawed approach (in books such as this one: http://www.amazon.com/Trinity-Subordinatio...8353&sr=8-1 ).

[aleithaki]

What a great discussion!

OP, I just wanted to say that I've met Christians with all sorts of different views on this matter. You're not weird just because you don't agree with your friends. Someday you might make other friends with totally different opinions.

I think you can disagree politely but remain friends and remain an active church member - salvation doesn't depend on the answer to this question.

(Of course it's worth researching and making your own informed opinion - but I'm trying to encourage you that I don't think it's a big deal if you think differently than the majority on this issue, and don't give up your faith just because of this one issue!)