[GWTW]

Ophelia, that's not uncommon with the MMR, because it is egg-based. Apparently it's happened in a number of cases, where children develop an egg allergy AFTER the MMR. When my DS1 was diagnosed with an egg allergy at 14 months, the first question everyone asked me was if he only started reacting after the MMR.

That's interesting because when I told the allergenist she said it was not linked as there is nothing in the MMR that can trigger an egg based allergy. i will have to look into this again a bit more. Thanks.

[~Karla~]

Ha ha, just more unknowns! Like we don't all have enough of them in our lives anyway!

It is egg-based though, or contains egg-protein at the very least, as is the flu vaccine. They even make special egg-free flu vaccines for egg-allergic kids now.

[Sinister Bonnet]

Would they all have developed it anyway or was there a contributing environmental factor is the puzzle. It's a brain inflammation in these kids from what I read, usually with autoimmune causes (or consequences, jury is still out there as it's a what came first the chicken or the egg type problem). So why the autoimmune problem at X time rather than from birth like others?

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no. Autism is not a brain inflammation. What kids are you referring to? The ones in Wakefield's study? A random group of kids with autism? Some kids with a proven autoimmune problem who also have autism?

Autism is not an autoimmune problem or has not yet been scientifically proven to be one.

[tenar]

jaicorbe you are perfectly intelligible. I have a PhD in science and I doubt I'm writing any clearer than you are. Education isn't the only thing that gives someone the ability to express themselves, and you shouldn't doubt yourself just because of your schooling.

I understand your point about vaccines being possibly able to trigger autism (or other things) in children who are prediposed. I should therefore refine my question to ask whether since children who are unvaccinated have the same autism rates as those who are vaccinated, does that mean that:

- autism is unconnected with vaccination
- vaccination either triggers or causes autism in some kids, but it protects the same number of kids against autism, leaving the overall rate of autism the same in the vaccinated as in the unvaccinated.
or (a 3rd option now)
- vaccination triggers autism in kids that would otherwise have been triggered by something else anyway, again leading to the same autism rate in vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids.

In my opinion the first thing is likely, but the second two would also explain both the research results and the anecdotal evidence like yours. I wish that people would put the money currently going into vaccination-autism research into "how to treat autism" research instead. I think that would be a better deal for people with autism.

Anyway, I think I'm diverging here. Thanks for the comments anyway.

[taddie]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no. Autism is not a brain inflammation.

Nope, I've never read the Wakefield study only its rebuttals.

Sarita I've done a huge amount of reading on this in the last few months, mostly pubmed articles at that. So many talk about brain inflammation and "overgrowth" in autism I can't see honestly where your statement comes from.

Just a few of the first hits on google (not always the ones I read but well presented information from reputable sources):

Brain Inflammation clearly a feature of autism

From the link:

"The researchers found strong evidence that certain immune system components that promote inflammation are consistently activated in people with autism.

"These findings reinforce the theory that immune activation in the brain is involved in autism, although it is not yet clear whether it is destructive or beneficial, or both, to the developing brain,"

From this article:

First, autism may not be rigidly determined but instead may be related to common gene variants, called polymorphisms, that may be derailed by environmental triggers. Second, affected genes may disturb fundamental pathways in the body and lead to chronic inflammation across the brain, immune system, and digestive system. Third, inflammation is treatable.
...
“I no longer see autism as a disorder of the brain but as a disorder that affects the brain,” Herbert says. “It also affects the immune system and the gut. One very striking piece of evidence many of us have noticed is that when autistic children go in for certain diagnostic tests and are told not to eat or drink anything ahead of time, parents often report their child’s symptoms improve—until they start eating again after the procedure. If symptoms can improve in such a short time frame simply by avoiding exposure to foods, then we’re looking at some kind of chemically driven ‘software’—perhaps immune system signals—that can change fast. This means that at least some of autism probably comes from a kind of metabolic encephalopathy—a systemwide process that affects the brain, just like cirrhosis of the liver affects the brain.”

I think this is overly broad because there are children who don't improve with any diet changes, they are usually the ones who showed signs since birth and not later onset types. I also think part of the problem with autism studies is they study both types of onset in the same studies and so don't see the results they would see if they were limiting the sample set to one type or another and so might be missing correlations they should be finding for one group or the other.

This post has been edited by taddie: 25/05/2010, 06:45 PM

[Sinister Bonnet]

Find me a cite which states clearly that autism is definitively linked to brain inflammation and I'll be impressed with your months of reading . That was what I was querying.

I know that gut and/or brain inflammation is a current theory and overgrowth is another current theory. But you came across as asserting them as proven fact which they are far from being.

[taddie]

But you came across as asserting them as proven fact which they are far from being.

Pssh I said "from what I am reading", which is far from stating it's fact or proven. I can't word everything perfectly, and I did limit the relevance to later onset autism where it seems the inflammation may be what is causing the brain injury that leads to autistic symptoms.

It's very unlikely even a researcher would say "X causes autism we've proved it" as for many autistic kids there may be a completely different cause. The most you'd get is a "In some children under certain conditions X can be a cause of autism". At the moment it's still all theories so we agree

This post has been edited by taddie: 25/05/2010, 08:36 PM

[Sinister Bonnet]

But again even saying that autism is a brain injury? It's not according to current knowledge. There's no provable brain injury that can be found on CAT scans or MRIs which is definitively linked to autism

So, no, we don't agree.

[visited]

An interesting read about what happened with Dr. Andrew Wakefield:

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

[Sinister Bonnet]

Oh good stuff, visiting!