[Grumpy1]

Hi

I am posting this as my daughter is having difficulties with maths and livelife recommended I see what you can make of her results and shed some light on these difficulties. DD was 8 years and 2 mths at time of testing and is getting D's for maths at school. The educational psychologist said she had no learning difficulties and the desprepency bweteen her verbal and maths is difficult to understand. She did point out a weakness in her PSI and recommened that DD be given extra time to complete maths exams (is is in year 4 now) and perhaps some tutoring would help her. While I realise she is not gifted, though she does score well on the Wiatt, I hoped you might be able to give me some insight into how to help her. The psychologist was unable to give her an IQ due to descrecpencies. I have copied and pasted some of the test results. Belwo are results for Wisc _IV. Thanks for any insight.

(VCI) Comp. 112 79% - High/Average
(PRI) Comp 110 75% - High average
(WMI) Comp.102 55% - Average
(PSI) Comp 91 91% - Average


[/size]Verbal Comprehension SubtestScores Summary

Subtests

Raw

Score

Scaled

Score

Test Age

Equiv.

Percentile

Rank

Similarities 18 12 9:6 75

Vocabulary 33 14 10:2 91

Comprehension 19 11 8:6 63

Perceptual Reasoning SubtestScores Summary

Subtests

Raw

Score

Scaled

Score

Test Age

Equiv.

Percentile

Rank

Block Design 26 11 8:10 63

Picture Concepts 17 11 8:10 63

Matrix Reasoning 21 13 9:10 84

Working Memory Subtest ScoresSummary

Subtests

Raw

Score

Scaled

Score

Test Age

Equiv.

Percentile

Rank

Digit Span 13 10 7:10 50

Letter-Number Sequencing 16 11 8:10 63

Processing Speed Subtest ScoresSummary

Subtests

Raw

Score

Scaled

Score

Test Age

Equiv.

Percentile

Rank

Coding 29 9 - 37

SymbolSearch 13 8 – 25







Summary of WIAT-II Subtest Scores

Subtests Percentile

Rank

Age

Equivalent

Year

Equivalent

Word Reading 82 9:4 4:3

Reading Comprehension 90 11:8 6:8

Pseudoword Decoding 81 10:4 5:1

Numerical Operations 12 6:8 1:9

Maths Reasoning 42 7:8 2:8

Reading

Eva performed in the High Averagerange in overall reading skills, as indicated by her

standard score on the ReadingComposite (118). Her skills in this area exceed that of

approximately 88% of students herage. Eva performed comparably on tasks that

required her to correctly read aseries of printed words (Word Reading standard score

= 114), read sentences andparagraphs and answer questions about what was read

(Reading Comprehension standardscore = 119) and correctly apply phonetic

decoding rules when reading aseries of nonsense words (Pseudoword Decoding

standard score = 113).

[size="3"]

[Grumpy1]

This is what the psychologist said about her maths. Please let me know if the copy and paste makes it incomphrehensible and I will write this email again.Mathematics

Eva's skills in mathematics are diverse and may not be adequately summarised by a

single number. She performed much higher on tasks that evaluated her ability to

understand basic number concepts, including unit and geometric measurement, and

solve one-step word problems (Maths Reasoning standard score = 97) than on tasks

that required her to add and subtract one- to three-digit numbers and multiply and

divide two-digit numbers (Numerical Operations standard score = 82). Because of

this variability in her performance, the Mathematics Composite standard score (89)

may not be the best summary of her overall skills in mathematics. Eva's skills in

Numerical Operations are within the Low Average range and better than those of only

approximately 12% of children her age. Her Maths Reasoning subtest score is above

that of approximately 42% of her peers, placing these skills in the Average range.

[Radical Fembo Bu...]

Maybe you should take her name out of the above posts?

[LiveLife]

I'm not surprised her Working Memory is low in comparison (that ties in with the problems you describe with maths operations). It would be well worth asking the parents of 2e kids for some advice on how to work with kids with uneven profiles. It may be that once she moves information from her short term memory to her long term memory that she has less difficulty with tasks. She may also benefit from a trip to a behavioural optometrist to see what her visual recall is like (perhaps that is high and she can learn compensatory strategies to move information from auditory to visual centre and therefore have a coping strategy for lower working memory). I personally think it is very important you look into the subset tests she scored lower on and understand what she isnt capable of doing as efficiently as other strategies. For example, digit span and letter number sequencing require her to listen to a series of information and then either verbally recall as presented or manipulate and then verbally recall--> this is her weak area. So she is unlikley to learn mental maths through auditory processes (chanting) as well as she might from visual processes or she may need help to develop a strategy to move info from the auditory centre to the visual centre. Did the psych give you ideas on this sort of stuff? My DDs WMI is high so its not something I've looked into but instead we have a comparatively weaker PSI but knowing this information allows you to better advocate for her in class and for you to chose the best approaches for any assistance with homework.

BTW the percentile rank for that PSI doesnt look right to me, should it be 41%ile?

This post has been edited by LiveLife: 16/02/2013, 05:31 PM

[Grumpy1]

Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I actually was going to take her to a Behavioural Op. anyway as she has epsiodes when she feels dream like. It may be mirgaine as I get migraine with aura. I have had her eye checked by a normal Optometrist and her vision is fine. What are 2e kids?

Yes her PSI should read 41% and is actually weaker than her working memory. Strange that you mention that she may not do well with chanting as I am finding that she is remembering them quite well and is able to then use times tables to work out problems. So it's confusing.

So are you basically saying that the best strategy for her may be using visual tools such as flash cards? Can she visualise well as opposed to memorise well? She does so well at spelling and other areas that she memorises that it kinda suprises me.

The psycologist just suggested giving her extra time on tests and tutoring her in maths basics to get her up to speed.

I tried posting this in the correct area but again my post has gone to the wrong place. Can't understand why.


PS: don't worry about the name they got that wrong anyway...

[Grumpy1]

Makes sense about her moving information from short term memory to long term memory. As I have mentioned a lot of repetition really seems to make a lot of difference to her. So if they move to quickly in school changing from one type of maths to another, as they do in maths activitie,s she never has the opportunity to really commit to memory.

She really needs to stay on one task until she understands that before moving to the next. I did discuss this with the teacher as I had noticed that she never seemed to fully grasp any maths and advised her to make sure DD went over and over something until it was clear she understood. This was not done. How should I approach the teacher with ways that may benefit her?

However why would her English not be affected by this weakness. Wouldn't you expect to see it in all subjects?

Thanks again

[Grumpy1]

Just adding some more infor. from the report Re: PSI where she is really weak. This seems to indicate that her visual processing skills are not very good? It says there is a probelm with visual scanning and tracking. Again they have her name wrong so I have not changed it.

In regards to the behavourial Op is it possible that she may have concvergence inffucieny, which I believe is more common than we know, or some other problem with her eyes, such as Irlen syndrome, which could explain why she feels like she is in a dream at times and the world appears odd? Bright light in particular seems to set this off.

Eva's ability in processing simple or routine visual material without making errors is

in the Average range when compared to her peers. She performed better than

approximately 27% of her peers on the processing speed tasks (Processing Speed

Index = 91; 95% confidence interval 83-102). Processing visual material quickly is

an ability that Eva performs less well than her verbal and nonverbal reasoning ability.

Processing speed is an indication of the rapidity with which Eva can mentally process

simple or routine information without making errors. Because learning often involves

a combination of routine information processing (such as reading) and complex

information processing (such as reasoning), a relative weakness in the speed of

processing routine information may make the task of comprehending novel

information more time-consuming and difficult for Eva. Thus, this relative weakness

in simple visual scanning and tracking may leave her less time and mental energy for

the complex task of understanding new material. Although much less developed than

her verbal and nonverbal reasoning abilities Eva's speed of information processing

abilities are still within the Average range and better than those of approximately 27%

of her age-mates (Processing Speed Index = 91; 95% confidence interval 101-117).

[Helen Magnus]

I was going to reply in your other thread abouths education to say that I found the wisemaths.org article quite interesting as it says that children who rote learn their maths facts free up their working memory for other things and that we have no problem with children practicing skills like learning the piano daily as we know that regular practice leads to improvement but don't expect children should have to practice maths daily.

My DD1has also been tested and also has weak working memory and processing with an otherwise high IQ but until I got her practing maths on a regular basis on top of what little homework she had she was just counting on her fingers and that is a very inefficient way to do anything but very basic addition and subtraction. DD testing included a visit to a behavioural optometrist and an audiologist for testing for auditory processing issues. in her case she is very good at visual processing and memory but not auditory. I can see now why the strategies I was describing would not work your case.

Maybe taking out all the reading and writing out of her maths and get her practising mental maths would help also there are plenty of maths songs on YouTube she might be able to sing along to to help her remember.

DD1 was a pretty average maths student until year 6 when she suddenly took off and I think that was because mathematical reasoning became more important. She is now in high school in a maths extension program and doing very well.
DD's English was affected although she reads and spells very well her writing was always very short ( although partly due to a physical issue as well) and her ability to sequence her ideas was all over the place. She doesn't read a lot of books and I think it's because it is hard to follow a complex story if you have to keep part of the plot in your mind. You may not see some of these things until the English work gets more complex or possibly because she has verbal strengths she has found a way to compensate for it.

[Grumpy1]

Hi Helen Magnus

Thank you for your reply. I am really glad someone read that article I posted. Yes I do believe that rote/memorisation/repetition is the key to helping my DD and perhaps many others. AS you so rightly pointed out from the article it frees up memory space, if there is automatic recall, thereby giving her more of a chance at tackling more complex tasks.

I am cheered to hear that your DD began to do well in maths. Perhaps there is hope that my DD willl do the same.

I just find it strange that her difficulties should not affect her English skills. She is a high level reader and one of the best at writing and spelling in her grade. In fact her creative writing stories, which she really loves doing, have been shown to the principal. Hence the reason why I do lay some of the blame on the way she has been taught maths in school where nothing was ever consolidated for her. For example I think they should be tuaght an area until they are able to confidently do it. Instead it seems they are rushed through so many areas and strategies thereby learning nothing well.

[Helen Magnus]

I forgot to add that she also has a diagnosis of ADHD I attentive and takes a low dose of medication and fish oil. Her iq test is typical for a child with ADHD. We did lots of computer based therapy and OT work first but that has really helped in the last year.

Have you heard of dyscalculia it is like dyslexia but only affects numbers. Not that I am saying you daughter has it but is certainly possible to have a learning disability that only affects the ability to recognise and remember numbers.

This post has been edited by Helen Magnus: 18/02/2013, 08:02 AM