[chat]

That's fine. But what about the people who are unable to? In a civilised society we look after all people in that society, not just those who are fit, healthy and able to work.

I think you will find that most people who like to look after themselves also have no problem with supporting those in need. I consider myself quite conservative in the political sense but grew up in the knowledge that my grandfather had a terminal illness from a young age and was never able to support himself. There must always be a safety net for the most vulnerable in our society and I don't mind paying a little tax for that purpose.

[Gossamer]

I think it's a different Bob Brown?

No, it is THE Bob Brown. Brown gave his annual Green oration a few weeks back where he referred to "fellow Earthians" and "extincted aliens".

[hayleymumof3]

QUOTE (Drowningnotwaving @ 14/04/2012, 11:45 PM)
Someone please explain how labors "solution" is better? They get to wear labels on them so they aren't bashed like the others? They have no un protection!

I agree with PP who said that Labor's policy was just vile but no more vile than Tony Abbott thinking he would be able to personally phone Navy boats to tell them to turn the boats back. Putting them more at risk of dying. The Liberal Party curtsey of John Howard made people fear Asylum seekers bring up that they could be terrorists. I wonder how many of the general population know that 95% of those seeking asylum are found to be genuine refugees. That's right 95% of them. And the biggest mode of transport to get here isn't BOATS it's PLANES. Why don't they make a huge fuss over the visa overstayers? The 50,000 White UK and USA citizens they work under the table cash in hand borrow friends medicare cards and costing tax payers more money.

Howard went to the voters on the gst. For the kids overboard he lost his seat, and government -fair enough yes?

Actually he won the first election after that vile incident because newpapers and news stations withheld vital information about that incident(the fact that the boat was on fire) it wasn't until AFTER The election that John Howard won was that information released. The one after that he lost.

This post has been edited by hayleymumof3: 15/04/2012, 02:08 PM

[Gangnam Style]

No, it is THE Bob Brown. Brown gave his annual Green oration a few weeks back where he referred to "fellow Earthians" and "extincted aliens".

Oh dear, did you bother to read the whole transcript? Or just the Daily telegraph headline?

I've heard it said that conservatives lack a sense of humour...

[chat]

I've heard it said that conservatives lack a sense of humour...

Not me

[Gangnam Style]

I have been known to admit there are some nice Liberal voters.

And if 3 billion Christians can believe that Jesus Christ died and then came back to life a few days later - then i think it's reasonable for Bob to consider the possibility that there may be other intelligent life out there on the millions of known planets in the universe.

[Gossamer]

Oh dear, did you bother to read the whole transcript? Or just the Daily telegraph headline?

I've heard it said that conservatives lack a sense of humour...

Yes I did read the entire thing. I didn't realise that Bob's annual green oration was a comedy skit.

This post has been edited by Gossamer: 16/04/2012, 07:44 AM

[Gangnam Style]

You may have read it, but you obviously missed the point if all you took away from it were the reference to aliens. *Insert eye roll*

[A Tiny Hedgehog]

I'm going to have to effortpost this, aren't I?

Anybody who votes Liberal party for economic reasons is an idiot. I'm not sugar-coating that statement or dancing around it. A flat out, dead-set brainwashed idiot, and I'm going to explain why.

The Liberal party take their name from the neoliberal economic policies they espouse, which are a variety of economic models very closely related to the Austrian school of economics.

These policies form around a very simple argument - that removing regulation and lowering taxation on business and other private enterprise will cause economic growth. This sounds logical at first - if businesses have more money, surely that means the economy is going to go better? More money available for investment means businesses can expand better and are more readily able to hire people?

This is, in fact, entirely wrong. Austrian economics is predicated on a major assumption: that people are rational actors. Essentially this assumption is that given a choice between two economic decisions, the average person will always take the choice with better financial expectation; the one that makes more money.

This assumes a lot of things about people that are patently false: it assumes people have access to perfect knowledge of every economic decision, that outside factors cannot influence their choice (marketing, advertising etc.) and that people are always perfectly capable of making the correct decisions (if someone is unemployed, they are able to wait until the right job comes along.)

Austrian economics specifically denies historical evidence as a means of constructing economic models (so the historical correlation between high marginal tax rates and stable economies is ignored, which is handy, because it completely contradicts Austrian models!) in favour of deriving equations from first principles, like supply and demand (supply and demand being such a laughably simplistic model of economic behaviour as to be entirely useless) Part of the reason for this is one of the greatest proponents of historical analysis in constructing theories of economics was our good friend Karl Marx, particularly in Das Kapital.

The reality is that neoliberal economic policies are a sham, and a cancer eating away at modern society that manages to sustain itself because the policies are beneficial to a group who have managed to gain significant power and influence beyond their position: the rich, who are able to buy out media, control national discourse and lobby politicians to ensure these policies are maintained and that the propaganda that "taxes and regulation are bad for business" continues to be spread.

In fact, taxes are excellent for businesses. The reason for this is when the government taxes someone, it doesn't disappear. It's not as if your taxes are thrown into a big hole to the feral lefty beast, covered in hammers and sickles and marijuana leaves and screaming FEED ME.
Taxes are injected back into the economy, through welfare, public jobs and other stimulus. Assuming your taxation system is progressive enough (i.e. the rich pay a greater % of their income than the poor) this has the effect of taking money away from areas where it stagnates, since the rich don't spend nearly the same % of their income as the poor, and puts it into where it will be spent, creating demand. Demand is the ultimate driver of economic growth, and supply issues are really only applicable in cases of major shortage, something the West rarely deals with. Businesses expand when they have to, and hire people to keep up with demand for their goods or services. The rhetoric of tax cuts for big business and the rich is based on the idea that a business is trying to expand and doesn't have the capital to do so, which is patently absurd when you look at the amounts of money businesses are throwing around every day, and the free availability of capital from investors and the stock market.

If you support policies that cut taxes on the rich and cut government spending, you are NOT supporting policies that will create opportunities for your children. If you want to support opportunities for your children, you should be supporting policies that redistribute money from the very rich and big business and invest in our national infrastructure (the NBN, high speed rail), build a stable economy (progressive taxation, counter-cyclical spending (a term I'll explain later if needed)) and invest in the foundations of a strong workforce (public education, tertiary education, strong labour unions and worker protections).

If anyone wants any clarification on any of these points feel free to ask. I'm tired of hearing this neoliberal garbage being spouted by people who think Joe Hockey's got the right idea for Australia.

This post has been edited by A Tiny Hedgehog: 17/04/2012, 09:29 PM

[chat]

I have been known to admit there are some nice Liberal voters.