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non-vaccinated kids around a newborn


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#1 WaitForIt

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:29 AM

This has been on my mind a lot, but has come to the forefront with the 'dear anti-vaxxer' thread.

My SIL doesn't vaccinate her kids as she is an anti-vaxxer. DH and I have a rocky relationship with her, anti-vax is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to her beliefs. I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of her visiting soon after our baby is born, but as she lives interstate it hopefully wont be too soon after the birth.

Sooner or later though, her and her kids will want to meet the baby. At what age (or point in the vax schedule) would be ok to have them visit? How much does each shot protect? Should I wait until 6 months? That will be just in the nick of time before Christmas.


#2 soontobegran

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

It is a deal breaker to me. No newborn is knowlingly exposed to a non vaccinated child and no handling by the parents of an unvaccinated child until the baby has their first vaccination.
Good luck with this.

#3 suzy-c

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

I don't know, but you won't be able to keep un-vaccinated people away from your baby for long, as you will be taking them out in public. Unless you don't leave the house at all, and have no visitors in those 6 months you mentioned, you will come in contact with un-vaccinated people. That much isolation is almost impossible, given people will want to meet the baby.

My baby will be exposed to my un-vaccinated self every minute of the day. I can't help that, as I was hospitalised for months after my first vaccination as a baby. For their own safety, my baby will be immunised, just as my first son was. (He had no reaction to it at all.)

Edited by suzy-c, 23 April 2012 - 11:47 AM.


#4 Alina0210

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:48 AM

I know alot of families and kids that dont vax... its such a non issue for me, usually non vaxers are more dilligent with keeping away if they are sick, have a runny nose or cold etc....

#5 soontobegran

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

QUOTE (Alina0210 @ 23/04/2012, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know alot of families and kids that dont vax... its such a non issue for me, usually non vaxers are more dilligent with keeping away if they are sick, have a runny nose or cold etc....


Certainly not my experience I am afraid.

#6 tenar

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:52 AM

It would be a deal breaker for me until the baby has at least had their first round of vaccinations.  Whooping cough is seriously scary for newborns.  

It's a straw man to suggest that you can't eliminate the risk therefore you should ignore it.  It's true that most of us can't entirely elminate the risk of contact with unvaccinated people, but we can dramatically reduce it by making sure that unvaccinated people don't handle our newborns.  I took my 9 month old back from a woman who was holding (uninvited - grr!) yesterday who I know doesn't vaccinate her son.  While at 9 months the risk of whooping cough being deadly is reduced, it certainly isn't eliminated, and its a risk I don't want to take.

OP I would stick to your guns about this.  Maybe your SIL will realise that her choices are endangering other people, especially in the context of the current whooping cough outbreak.

Good luck with managing to do it without much stress.

#7 Mummy Em

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:54 AM

There was a threadwhere someone (I can't remember who) posted stats of the number of bubs that are immune to whooping cough after the first, second and third injections. I seem to remember that it was a little under half for the first one and around 80% (I think) by the third.

I don't know how long to keep them away, OP, I think it is a judgement call.

#8 soontobegran

Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:58 AM

QUOTE (suzy-c @ 23/04/2012, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know, but you won't be able to keep un-vaccinated people away from your baby for long, as you will be taking them out in public. Unless you don't leave the house at all, and have no visitors in those 6 months you mentioned, you will come in contact with un-vaccinated people. That much isolation is almost impossible, given people will want to meet the baby.


Protecting your baby from the unvaccinated in the time preceeding the first vax does not mean you have to keep them enclosed within the 4 walls of the house. I've never felt the need to do that.
I don't think a baby is at risk at the shops for instance if in a sling or a pram and nobody coughs on it or touches it's little face.
The OP is talking about a visit to her home which I am certain would involve handling by a non vaccinated family. That is different IMO.

#9 Xiola

Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:48 PM

I was in a similar situation as you with a very close anit-vaxxing friend.  I also needed to do the school run everyday so had DD around lots of people straightaway.  I kept her in a wrap type sling so that she was close to me and all tucked up.  It stopped people trying to put their hands on her and no one asked if they could hold her which was great.  We had a whooping cough outbreak in our area around with DD was born so I was fairly paranoid about people touching her.

My anti-vaxxing friend stayed away for the first couple of months which was fantastic.  She was really understanding but I understand that not everyone is.  

Our Dr advised us that no unvaccinated person should hold DD until she'd had her third whooping couch vax which is around 6 months old.

#10 JustBeige

Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:54 PM

Can you get some literature from your doc that basically says she cant touch until whatever time. Or shows the risk factors.  That way she wont think you are singling her out, it will just be a blanket rule

#11 franklymum

Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

Sigh. This topic comes up again and again.

OP, while i can understand your concern for you newborn the most important fact about anyone that comes into contact with your baby is this - whether they are sick or unwell.

Vaccinated and unvaccinated children and adults alike can all pass on something if they are currently contagious - people who are vaccinated still get sick. This includes the scary ones too like whooping cough. Vaccinated children both contract and pass on diseases even if they are perhaps not suffering a severe case of the disease because they've been vaccinated.

Sometimes the person doesn't know they are unwell because there are no symptoms - this can also be a problem for both vaccinated and unvaccinated children and adults and both have the possibility of passing something on.

The safest thing you can do is keep those who have a cough/feel unwell/might be coming down with something away from your newborn and take all the usual precautions.

I am not coming from a particular stance here - anti-vax or pro-vax, i am simply pointing out the logic of the situation. Goodluck and congratulations OP.

#12 Sif

Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:09 PM

Being unvaccinated is NOT the same as being disease ridden.

Being vaccinated is NOT the same as being immune.

When are people going to understand this.

Unless a vaccinated child or adult has had their immunity TESTED to PROVE they have developed immunity, they are a risk to a newborn.

If you are so afraid of your child catching a communicable disease, your best bet is to put the child in a bubble, that is the ONLY way to can ensure safety.

#13 WaitForIt

Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:37 PM

I don't have an all or nothing view on illness so the bubble wont be necessary.

Of course I would keep sick people away, whether vaccinated or not. Of course I will take my baby outside and in public. But there is a big difference between someone sitting over the way in a cafe to someone holding and snuggling for multiple days.

I'm not looking to prevent my child from getting any form of illness, just reduce the risk of catching the big ones.

#14 CallMeProtart

Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:51 PM

QUOTE (franklymum @ 23/04/2012, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[/b]Vaccinated and unvaccinated children and adults alike can all pass on something if they are currently contagious - people who are vaccinated still get sick. This includes the scary ones too like whooping cough. Vaccinated children both contract and pass on diseases even if they are perhaps not suffering a severe case of the disease because they've been vaccinated.


Yes this is an area I'm fuzzy about re: vaccinations - on the one hand I believe that a person, say, vaccinated against whooping cough, can still get sick from the virus, it just wouldn't be likely to progress to full blown whooping cough. So they could still have the virus to pass on.
But yet you do hear about the low immunity members of a community being protected by 'herd immunity' - how does that work if the virus is just as prevelant as otherwise, but just not so severe? How is it that some diseases have been virtually eliminated due to vaccinations - shouldn't they still be around, just without much symptom?

This is something I still don't understand regarding vaccinations. I suppose maybe it depends what sort of disease it is - like say smallpox/chickenpox, if you're immune you're immune, so it just doesn't hang around in your body at all - whereas whooping cough, the immunity thing kind of partially protects you, but you still can carry the virus - is that something like how it works?

#15 franklymum

Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

OP, regarding your above reply i am honestly curious then what threat you think having a healthy (ie. not sick/coughing etc) unvaccinated child around your newborn poses? As i said i fully realize that people can be sick without showing any symptoms yet but that applies to both vaccinated and unvaccinated children (both of which can contract and pass along these diseases even if, perhaps, the disease is milder for the vaccinated child).

Again, i am not having a go and i appreciate your need to protect your child but i'd really be interested to know why you regard having a healthy non vaccinated child around as more threatening  than you would regard a healthy vaccinated one?

Edited by franklymum, 23 April 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#16 *mylittleprince*

Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

I find this an interesting topic. 2 of my very close friends don't immunise. I see my one friend 3 times a week and other friend once a week. Also have an acquintace who doesn't vaccinate that we will start seeing quite often. I'm pregnant with twins and so worried about this.

I would feel strange asking them and their children not too touch (although maybe the adults would be immunised?).

So confusing to know what is right.

#17 pratique

Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:08 PM

QUOTE (CallMeAl @ 23/04/2012, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes this is an area I'm fuzzy about re: vaccinations - on the one hand I believe that a person, say, vaccinated against whooping cough, can still get sick from the virus, it just wouldn't be likely to progress to full blown whooping cough. So they could still have the virus to pass on.
But yet you do hear about the low immunity members of a community being protected by 'herd immunity' - how does that work if the virus is just as prevelant as otherwise, but just not so severe? How is it that some diseases have been virtually eliminated due to vaccinations - shouldn't they still be around, just without much symptom?

This is something I still don't understand regarding vaccinations. I suppose maybe it depends what sort of disease it is - like say smallpox/chickenpox, if you're immune you're immune, so it just doesn't hang around in your body at all - whereas whooping cough, the immunity thing kind of partially protects you, but you still can carry the virus - is that something like how it works?


When you are vaxinated your body will build up antibodies to fight the disease if you come in contact with it. Then if the pathogen is ingested at a later state, symptoms may appear as your body is fighting it (this is why sometimes people get sick after the flu shot for example)  However, because the body has the appropraite antibodies it is able to fight it off at a relatively quicker rate.

Herd immunity protects communities as the disease is stop shorter at a much quicker rate. When individuals are immunised they are able to kill the pathogen and not spread the disease. Over time the disease is not as prevalent. Incubation periods will differ for various diseases, thus the ability to 'hang around' so to speak.  

Small pox has not been seen in the community since the late 70's.

#18 tenar

Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:30 PM


Just because both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can catch and pass on a given disease doesn't mean that they are equally likely to.  A vaccinated person has a high chance of being protected from that disease.  An unvaccinated person has no protection from that disease (unless they have already had it before, in which case their status is the same as if they were vaccinated.  

Non-vaccinated people are therefore a much higher risk to babies in this context, regardless of their reasons (good or not) for not vaccinating.  That doesn't mean vaccinated people pose no risk, of course they do, but the risk is significantly reduced.  

Of course sick people should not be around newborns and most people in the community would realise this as an obvious fact.  The problem isn't people with symptoms, it's people who are infectious but don't have any symptoms yet.  


#19 squirt081

Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:36 PM

QUOTE (soontobegran @ 23/04/2012, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is a deal breaker to me. No newborn is knowlingly exposed to a non vaccinated child and no handling by the parents of an unvaccinated child until the baby has their first vaccination.
Good luck with this.


This

Now my DD is  nearly 3yrs and DS 18mths I have no problems with non vaccinated ppl around them but not when they CANT have them cause they are to young.

Dont care who they are or what they say it's a big STAY AWAY.

#20 trishalishous

Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:01 PM

its cultural to have a 'confinement' or babymoon for us, so contact will be limited in the first month anyway.
ill be staying away from certain circles until bellyfruit has had the 6week shots, but will be going overseas at 6months old.

#21 soontobegran

Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE (Sif @ 23/04/2012, 01:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Being unvaccinated is NOT the same as being disease ridden.

Being vaccinated is NOT the same as being immune.

When are people going to understand this.

Unless a vaccinated child or adult has had their immunity TESTED to PROVE they have developed immunity, they are a risk to a newborn.

If you are so afraid of your child catching a communicable disease, your best bet is to put the child in a bubble, that is the ONLY way to can ensure safety.



Please do not underestimate the ability of people to understand this? Why is that non vaxxers believe they are they only ones who 'educate' themselves.

I think it is being extremely facetious to suggest that someone should put their child in a bubble. sad.gif  I can't see anyone suggesting that it is 'lockdown' completely for the baby for 6 months.
Being vaccinated is not a presumption that one is immune but there is certainly an awful lot more chance of it being the case than if you are not!

The fact is that several babies have become critically ill or died in Australia in recent times because they have caught WC  because they are unable to be vaccinated in the first 8 weeks. If the parents and regular visitors to the baby are vaccinated and the baby is kept out of 'breathing shot' from the general public then the chances are reduced and if that is what you'd like to call 'bubble wrapping' then so be it!

Edited by soontobegran, 23 April 2012 - 05:20 PM.


#22 Lisy-lis

Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:31 PM

Sif -  I game to try to explain it for you, but unfortunately I can't understand it for you.....

Vaccination reduces the risk of communicable diseases.

Vaccination assists in protecting the unvaccinated, including newborns, from contracting diseases such as whooping cough.

Vaccination is responsible for the eradication of smallpox.

Vaccination is responsible for the huge reduction in polio, mumps, measles outbreaks.

Vaccination is not guaranteed, it is not 100%, it does not claim to be.

Mass vaccination is the single most successful public health program ever undertaken.



#23 MeNinja

Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:32 PM

OP I would feel uncomfortable if I was in the same position, perhaps try and delay their visit for as long as possible.

Whooping cough in particular is a scary one and my next is due in winter so prime season for it. We have asked DH's elderly parents to be vaccinated and we will be too.

Take the steps you need to to feel okay about it. Good luck




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