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Are all children getting a fair go at school no matter their background or postcode?


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#1 wrong

Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:16 PM

SBSONE 8.30pm tomorrow/Tuesday
http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/over.../Class-Struggle
With the release of the Gonski Report, tomorrow's edition of Insight asks if there can ever be equality in our school education system.

WDYT?

This might also be of interest:
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/doing-the-...0327-1vw9g.html
Are parents getting value for money at a private school, or would their children be just as happy, successful and well-rounded at the local government high school?

#2 peking homunculus

Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:37 PM

No.

The flight to private education coincides with a reduction in equity of outcomes in Australian education.

Education should be a budget priority. It's the only way of ensuring that the Australian value of the fair go is achieved.



#3 JRA

Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

I dare anyone to come in and answer yes.

Thanks for the heads up. It should be interesting to watch

#4 somila

Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE (JRA @ 02/04/2012, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I dare anyone to come in and answer yes.

Thanks for the heads up. It should be interesting to watch

I double dare them! original.gif

#5 Overtherainbow

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:04 PM

No.  I cant see equality in education as a posibility either.

Unfortunately, such a large part of education comes from home.  A child who enters kindy and eats a crayon is already disadvantaged to the child who has been to playgroup, music lessons been read to daily, knows their alphabet, etc.

After being at a school where they cancelled fruit time because it was too hard to divide 1 apple among 30 children, I truly understand the up hill battle some children face.

To educate fairly, would be for the government/education system take on more parent responsibilities.  Feeding children nutritiously, offering speach, OT, physio, etc in schools for all children who need them, making sure children get enough sleep per night, protecting children from drug/alcohol at the fetus stage, etc.

#6 MidnightDad

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:10 PM

What do I think?

    Use more money to lower  teacher/student ratios and separate teacher education time from  discipline time in low socio-ecconomic high schools. Disengage  teachers from pastoral care and discipline in these schools or simply  continue to waste their education abilities.

    Want to instil good  education practices into kids themselves? You have until Year 5 to  make it happen more cheaply and effectively. High school is either  too late or takes ten times the money.

    Recognise there is NO  amount of money you can pour into public education of children that  will change the woeful ratio of 10% of parents caring enough to turn  up at parents and teachers night for some school classes, with all  the attendant family attitudes to education that flow from that, so  set aside money to educate/engage these parents in education as well,  the earlier the better, for the good of their children.

Recognise that if you  toss everything into a big pot, low socio-ecconomic, high  socio-ecconomic, private, public, selective, etc, you don't end up  with less rotten tomatoes, you just spread them around to conceal the  problem better.



#7 auntpriscilla

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE
With the release of the Gonski Report, tomorrow's edition of Insight asks if there can ever be equality in our school education system.


I don't think there will ever be equality in our school education system. Because  equality in the education system requires equality outside of the education system, in broader society.  And in a capitalist society, where there is individual freedom, and individual responsibilities, this is not achievable.

#8 mumtoactivetoddler

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:17 PM

No but to be honest that is because education can't replace cr*p parenting. Most parents turn up to parent teacher interviews (they have to do them over 3 days/nights to fit them in at our school). However there are a small number who can't be bothered to do things like the kids reader at nights (probably same parents who wonder why their kids need to be in reading recovery which the p & c has to fundraise for).

#9 April girl

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:17 PM

Short answer is no. We should move to the model used in Finland which often produces the best educational results world wide. But we won't .......

#10 MummaDiva

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:24 PM

No.  We never will.
Politicians live in postcodes with good schools, and public servants live in postcodes with good schools, so they have no idea of reality.  And the general public keep voting for the politicians (who keep the public servants in their jobs) because the general public get promised the baby bonus and free nannies.

Edited by MummaDiva, 02 April 2012 - 09:25 PM.


#11 peking homunculus

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (mumtoactivetoddler @ 02/04/2012, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No but to be honest that is because education can't replace cr*p parenting. Most parents turn up to parent teacher interviews (they have to do them over 3 days/nights to fit them in at our school). However there are a small number who can't be bothered to do things like the kids reader at nights (probably same parents who wonder why their kids need to be in reading recovery which the p & c has to fundraise for).


You are right. However, my problem with the current education system is that instead of helping to bridge the gap between kids who have families who care and those who don't, it actually makes it worse. The gap compounds through education.

That's not right, and that's what we should be working towards changing.

There are heaps of examples of public schools who have turned things around and changed the way they do things and as a result have improved outcomes. One of the panel members on tomorrow's Insight is Gus Napoli who is the Principal at John Fawkner College in Melbourne. He and his school were featured in the 4 corners story on Quality Teaching. Another is Cherbourg State School in Qld. They have a big Indigenous population, and Principle Chris Sarra was able to make a huge impact on the students there.

it's not impossible to achieve significantly better outcomes for kids who come from difficult family backgrounds.

#12 Guest_Retro_Mumma_*

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:45 PM

Sadly no.

#13 KristyMum-

Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:43 PM

no

and

not necessarily.  (I say 'Independent' anyway  tongue.gif )

#14 MummaDiva

Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:02 AM

QUOTE (*howls* @ 03/04/2012, 12:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A Teacher friend of mine was complaining a while ago at the lack full-time positions. She had an ongoing part-time position at a particular school without the promise of being made permanent. Surely this kind of management impacts the personal commitment to that particular school the teacher can have? How can we ask the Teacher to be personally invested in those children when the Education Department isn't allowing that commitment to be reciprocated.


This is actually a huge problem at many small schools.  My DDs school is a small school catering to quite a few low SES families, and houses a big SE Unit.  Only about 60% of the teaching staff is permanent.  Teachers last two or three years then take some sort of leave, get sick / stressed, transfer to a regional position, take long service leave or whatever and leave massive holes in the staff roster that are filled by temp / contract teachers straight out of Uni (which can actually be a good thing in terms of teacher quality) or the position is not filled at all, and the class is then taught by a roster of casuals / or broken up and put into other classes for a few days a week.  The result is a teaching body that doesn't have a vested interest in the school.
I personally believe that if a teacher needs to take a long time out of their allocated school for whatever reason, and that school is smaller than a certain size, say 10 teachers, so that their absence will obviously have an impact on the teaching outcomes of the school, they should be taken off the roster, their position filled by someone permanent, and the leave-taker put into a pool of "floaters" that can choose an area and have first dibs on any position that comes up in the general area when they make up their minds to return.  I think as it stands, in many cases they have to legally have "first dibs" at the exact same position that they left, so the school is kind of left hanging for a couple of years while they make up their mind whether to come back or not - and more often than not it is a "not".

Also, schools in these types of areas should be allotted social workers that can take on the pastoral care work that bogs the teachers down.  If DOCS opened a mini-office in the school, a hell of a lot more teaching would get done.

Edited by MummaDiva, 03 April 2012 - 12:39 AM.


#15 9021OH

Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:16 AM

No but life isn't fair and this is one of those things that will always be unfair.
If your unhappy with your local schools move, save your butt off to get them into a private school or send them to boarding school. There is always other options available.

#16 MummaDiva

Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:37 AM

QUOTE (LockedKey @ 03/04/2012, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No but life isn't fair and this is one of those things that will always be unfair.
If your (?) unhappy with your local schools (punctuation required?) move, save your butt off to get them into a private school (punctuation required?) or send them to boarding school. There is (?) always other options available.


Yes, because Centrelink pays sooo much these days.

And since market farmers will now be required to send their children to private / boarding schools (since they are always better at teaching the basics like spelling and punctuation, obviously), you city folks'll be paying $40 for a head of lettuce.

No, there ARE not always other options available.

FWIW, I personally DO have other options available, but I realise just how incredibly lucky I am.  I also realise that the reality for a LOT of people is that they DON'T have the choice.  Unless Tony decides to subsidise nannies AND private school for the working class masses.

#17 9021OH

Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:10 AM

QUOTE (MummaDiva @ 03/04/2012, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, because Centrelink pays sooo much these days.

And since market farmers will now be required to send their children to private / boarding schools (since they are always better at teaching the basics like spelling and punctuation, obviously), you city folks'll be paying $40 for a head of lettuce.

No, there ARE not always other options available.

FWIW, I personally DO have other options available, but I realise just how incredibly lucky I am. I also realise that the reality for a LOT of people is that they DON'T have the choice. Unless Tony decides to subsidise nannies AND private school for the working class masses.


It's the early hours of the morning where I am so please excuse me while I completely ignore and discard whatever you were critiquing from my post.

Yes there are always other options available; whether people are willing to work and sacrifice for them or not is the question.
My children go to school with kids whose parents work 4 jobs to make sure their children have the best start in life, not surprisingly most of them seem to be immigrants from less fortunate countries who know what an actual hard days work and poverty is and want to do everything they humanly can to insure their children never know it.

The main problem for most of "the working class masses" as you called them I know is they are stuck in a rut - the majority of them are lazy and self-entitled. Every single necessity of life is or can be provided for free in this country; Education? Free, Health care? Free, Having a baby? you get paid to do so, and then you have the audacity to complain because it's not enough for you. These are things few other countries on this planet provide but hey you want more, hell, you deserve more then 90% of the rest of the human race and how dare they not budget, during these tough economic times, to improve an already superior puplic,free educational system.

Seriously, If your unhappy with your kids puplic education get off your bum and go do something about it. A homless teenage mother got into Harvard a couple of years ago, don't tell me your situation is hopeless.

#18 L&E

Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:53 AM

QUOTE
Yes there are always other options available; whether people are willing to work and sacrifice for them or not is the question.


Wow lockedkey that's a pretty sheltered statement. There are not always other options available. And, until your posts, this was a discussion about lessening the gap between the haves and have nots, since we are talking about the education of children here. Last time I checked, children don't get to choose the financial status or values of the family they are born into, nor do they have the option to just "work harder" to pay private fees for themselves.


#19 somila

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:02 AM

QUOTE (*howls* @ 02/04/2012, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
April girl, how does Finland do it?

Finland has a fairly homogenous population both socially and economically, and doesn't have any "tyranny of distance" issues.  Good on them for their excellent public education system (I don't think they have any private/independent schools) but everything that works for them won't necessarily work for us.

#20 Guest_Dinah_Harris_*

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE (April girl @ 02/04/2012, 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Short answer is no. We should move to the model used in Finland which often produces the best educational results world wide. But we won't .......


What is the Finnish system?  I'm very interested!
No there is no equality.  I went to a public high school in a small regional town.  It was common knowledge and widely practiced that the teachers there were biding their time before applying to work at the private schools in the larger city about half an hour away.  The town culture itself did not value education.  Most of my classmates graduated from high school and the girls were happy to get a job at the pharmacy, Coles or as a secretary.  The boys at least often would go down the apprenticeship path.  I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with these jobs, but my problem lies with the culture of the town, where higher education is not valued.
The school did not cater well for either gifted students or struggling students.  
Only a handful of us left the town to go to university.  None of us would ever go back to live in that town.
Unfortunately, this experience means that I will probably seek out private education for my children.

#21 Holidayromp

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:09 AM

QUOTE (summerdaze @ 02/04/2012, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No.  I cant see equality in education as a posibility either.

Unfortunately, such a large part of education comes from home.  A child who enters kindy and eats a crayon is already disadvantaged to the child who has been to playgroup, music lessons been read to daily, knows their alphabet, etc.

After being at a school where they cancelled fruit time because it was too hard to divide 1 apple among 30 children, I truly understand the up hill battle some children face.

To educate fairly, would be for the government/education system take on more parent responsibilities.  Feeding children nutritiously, offering speach, OT, physio, etc in schools for all children who need them, making sure children get enough sleep per night, protecting children from drug/alcohol at the fetus stage, etc.


Kids don't need to go to playgroup.  DD1 did but when we became self employed DD2 didn't go - mainly because there wasn't any space for her and secondly there was always someone to watch her.  However she started school with no problems whatsoever and it is very difficult to tell her apart from her peers that did go to playgroup/daycare/preschool.  Also she is the mathematical ability at a year 2 level.  It is all very individual just because a child does activities before attending kindy doesn't necessarily mean they are going to do well or have the knowledge base to start kindy.

There is no way in hell will I allow the government to take over some of my parental obligations for my children just because a few parents cannot get their act together.

FTR - Both girls are attending a public primary school.  This school rates better than all private schools in the area.  It is an excellent school and always has long wait lists.  I was very lucky to get DD2 in as an out of zone student but because DD1 was already there she got a place.

#22 somila

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:17 AM

QUOTE (Dinah_Harris @ 03/04/2012, 08:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What is the Finnish system?  I'm very interested!

It is, in simple terms, an excellent public education system for the whole country.  Teaching is seen as a highly desirable and respected career - only the best can make it through the pre-service training.  There is no nationwide testing (such as NAPLAN) and schools are encouraged to work together for the best outcomes for their students, sharing "best practice" rather than competing against each other.  The nation as a whole supports and values its public education system to the point where private education is irrelevant.

#23 ACO

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:18 AM

My DS goes to our local public school and it's an absolutely amazing place. Why? Because I think it has about 98% of parents paying the voluntary enrichment fee every year. It also has amazing fund raising. For a school of around 500 students, they raise something like $80K per year.

I'm so grateful that I live in an area where I can count on all the other parents to pay their way (as well as us), my children benefit so much.

But on the other hand, it only goes to highlight how under resourced schools in less advantaged areas must be.

#24 gina70

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:19 AM

Finland has definitely got the right idea when it comes to education.  Here is an interesting link from Lateline: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3441913.htm


#25 somila

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:24 AM

Unfortunately, trying to replicate the Finnish education system in Australia would require us to unscramble a very large omelette.  I'm not saying we haven't got a lot to learn from them, however.  original.gif




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