Jump to content

Visiting SIDS expert slams Victorian coroner for telling parents not to sleep with their babies
Herald Sun, 15 March 2012


  • Please log in to reply
80 replies to this topic

#1 Emily33-

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

Here's the article FYI:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news...2-1226299790054



#2 Rosiebird

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:05 AM

I wish that the statistics for co-sleeping were separated out so that parents that bed-share responsibly are not lumped into the same group as people who use drugs and alcohol then co-sleep, co-sleeping with animals (WTF?) and co-sleeping on the sofa.

I'd like to know what the risk of over-lying your child is if:
- there are no drugs and alcohol involved
- the baby is on the mother's side
- the mother is exclusively breastfeeding
- there are no heavy, soft covers or pillows around the baby


#3 bakesgirls

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:18 AM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 17/03/2012, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd like to know what the risk of over-lying your child is if:
- there are no drugs and alcohol involved
- the baby is on the mother's side
- the mother is exclusively breastfeeding
- there are no heavy, soft covers or pillows around the baby



My bold. What does that have to do with it? Genuine question. I can't see what difference that would make. Every other point I can. Perhaps I am missing the obvious? original.gif

#4 Rosiebird

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:24 AM

QUOTE (bakesgirls @ 17/03/2012, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My bold. What does that have to do with it? Genuine question. I can't see what difference that would make. Every other point I can. Perhaps I am missing the obvious? original.gif


I don't think it's an official guideline (and this is hearsay) but my midwife told me that mothers who are exclusively breastfeeding (and not on intoxicated etc etc) never overlie their babies.

She talked about a study where bed-sharing mothers were videotaped overnight to watch their sleep behaviour. If anyone knows the study I'm referring to, I've been trying to find it ever since.

#5 Froger

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

I have to admit I'm a bit confused. I thought SIDS was different to over-lying? Obiviously I understand why being drunk/drugged, sleeping on a sofa with your baby, being really large, letting animals sleep with your baby would increase the risk of over-lying. But what is this to do with SIDS? Sorry if I'm being dumb, but I don't understand - I though SIDS was dying from a cause that was unable to be determined  - which means not from over-lying?? Is over-lying now counted among SIDS deaths?

But for the PP in regards to over-lying and exclusive breastfeeding - I have read an article (not sure how true or well researched it is) that says that a mother is more in tune with knowing where her baby is in the bed when co-sleeping if the baby is a breastfed baby. Also I do  believe that in regards to SIDS there is some research that suggests that breastfeeding is protective. Some countries have breastfeeding listed as a protective factor against SIDS, and I think at one stage Australia did too (although I am not positive about this - my memory is not so good!)

ETA: Yes Rosiebird, I know the study you mean, I have definitely read it also. But no idea where I read it now, sorry I'm not much help.

Edited by SarahM72, 17 March 2012 - 09:28 AM.


#6 lizzzard

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

QUOTE (bakesgirls @ 17/03/2012, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My bold. What does that have to do with it? Genuine question. I can't see what difference that would make. Every other point I can. Perhaps I am missing the obvious? original.gif



I think exclusive breastfeeding is correlated with a lower SIDS rate in general...possibly because breast milk is digested more quickly so babies (and mothers) tend to wake more when they are breastfeeding, so less chance of co-sleeping risk? Just a thought...

Edited by lizzzard, 17 March 2012 - 09:27 AM.


#7 JJ

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:29 AM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 17/03/2012, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wish that the statistics for co-sleeping were separated out so that parents that bed-share responsibly are not lumped into the same group as people who use drugs and alcohol then co-sleep, co-sleeping with animals (WTF?) and co-sleeping on the sofa.


I agree. Are these accidental deaths actually included in SIDS statistics, even when it's clear that it wasn't really SIDS? That would really skew the numbers, wouldn't it?

Edited by JJ, 17 March 2012 - 09:31 AM.


#8 EssentialBludger

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:30 AM

I'm not getting it either. Are we talking about smothering or SIDS? they're two different things.

#9 Rosiebird

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:36 AM

QUOTE (SarahM72 @ 17/03/2012, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have to admit I'm a bit confused. I thought SIDS was different to over-lying? Obiviously I understand why being drunk/drugged, sleeping on a sofa with your baby, being really large, letting animals sleep with your baby would increase the risk of over-lying. But what is this to do with SIDS? Sorry if I'm being dumb, but I don't understand - I though SIDS was dying from a cause that was unable to be determined  - which means not from over-lying?? Is over-lying now counted among SIDS deaths?

But for the PP in regards to over-lying and exclusive breastfeeding - I have read an article (not sure how true or well researched it is) that says that a mother is more in tune with knowing where her baby is in the bed when co-sleeping if the baby is a breastfed baby. Also I do  believe that in regards to SIDS there is some research that suggests that breastfeeding is protective. Some countries have breastfeeding listed as a protective factor against SIDS, and I think at one stage Australia did too (although I am not positive about this - my memory is not so good!)

ETA: Yes Rosiebird, I know the study you mean, I have definitely read it also. But no idea where I read it now, sorry I'm not much help.


You're right of course SarahM72, SIDS and overlying are different but in my own mind I tend to lump them together as 'waking up to see your baby has passed away'. I know that sleeping separately would prevent the risk of overlying but in my own mind, I wonder whether it increases the risk of SIDS. My (uneducated) opinion on the matter is that if kangaroo care/skin-to-skin helps regulate a newborn's breathing and heart rate, then having your baby next to you all night where he/she can hear you breathing and feel your heartbeat will also stimulate the baby enough to prevent apnoeas.




#10 bakesgirls

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:38 AM

I knew the risks of SIDS were lower in breastfed babies. But to tell mothers that they are at higher risk of over-lying and therefore killing their babies is just a nasty way to encourage BF IMO. Scare tactics just are not right to me.

Sorry, I think I get a little worked up about things like that, as I co-sleep with all my babies, not all night, but for at least an hour or two per night. When they are in bed with me, IME, I tend to be a very light sleeper when they are next to me. I sleep much better when they are in their own beds(bassinette next to my bed). As a mother who was unable to BF due to medical issues and medications taken for a chronic illness (that passes through to breastmilk, so was told I couldn't BF sad.gif), I just get annoyed by suggestions like that. Plus I had never heard of that before unsure.gif

ETA-If anyone can find a link to that study I would definitely be interested in having a read. original.gif

Edited by bakesgirls, 17 March 2012 - 09:41 AM.


#11 bailee

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:41 AM

re exclusive breastfeeding - I'm not good at explaining it but its a physiological response that happens between mother and baby when breastfeeding and coosleeping - the mother becomes more in tune with the baby's breathing patterns, waking/sleeping cycles, feeding patterns, etc. Its like an innate awareness for both mother and baby - cause I cant think of another way to explain it. Another example of it that was explained to me was that babies will always gravitate to the breast so when sleeping next to the mother their head will stay at breast height, rather than slide down the bed keeping them safer. Certainly was the case for my DD - she pretty much stayed put all night and I would rouse the instant before she would be ready for a feed with her crying to wake me.  Introducing things like alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, obviously interfere with the bodies ability to do this natural thing - I'm not sure so much about formula though, but I guess its another thing that probably interferes with the body's natural senses (and I'm not trying to start a debate about FvB).

#12 Rosiebird

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (bakesgirls @ 17/03/2012, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I knew the risks of SIDS were lower in breastfed babies. But to tell mothers that they are at higher risk of over-lying and therefore killing their babies is just a nasty way to encourage BF IMO. Scare tactics just are not right to me.

Sorry, I think I get a little worked up about things like that, as I co-sleep with all my babies, not all night, but for at least an hour or two per night. When they are in bed with me, IME, I tend to be a very light sleeper when they are next to me. I sleep much better when they are in their own beds(bassinette next to my bed). As a mother who was unable to BF due to medical issues and medications taken for a chronic illness (that passes through to breastmilk, so was told I couldn't BF sad.gif), I just get annoyed by suggestions like that. Plus I had never heard of that before unsure.gif

ETA-If anyone can find a link to that study I would definitely be interested in having a read. original.gif


Please  don't take offense. As I wrote, I don't know what the stats are, just that I would be interested in finding out. My midwife suggested the same thing as SarahM72, that breastfeeding mothers are more in tune with where their baby is, but I certainly don't think that you are risking your baby by cosleeping and FF.

#13 bakesgirls

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:59 AM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 17/03/2012, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Please  don't take offense. As I wrote, I don't know what the stats are, just that I would be interested in finding out. My midwife suggested the same thing as SarahM72, that breastfeeding mothers are more in tune with where their baby is, but I certainly don't think that you are risking your baby by cosleeping and FF.


No offence was taken at all original.gif Just saying my experience. I wish I had been able to stay off my medication for longer than 8 weeks post birth (varied between 1-8 weeks, between my girls) so I could have BF longer. But I certainly don't feel bad that I couldn't. My kids need a mother who is painfree and functioning more than breastmilk IMO.

Interesting point though, I will google it and try to find the research that correlates BF and lower risk of over-lying original.gif

Edited by bakesgirls, 17 March 2012 - 10:03 AM.


#14 Alvarywinters

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:59 AM

I'm wondering if they count smothering and SIDS as the same thing because they do not know for certain what the cause of death is? Or if it was the only contributor?
They talk about ways to reduce SIDS that directly reduce smothering risks...like loose/soft blankets, when obviously they are a risk as they stop bub being able to breathe if they cover the head.
It seems a lot of the time that SIDS is a way of lumping a whole range of causes together, known and unknown...which is of course what the point is with the article.

I agree, I would like to see the statistics of SIDS when there is no big risk factor there...no drugs, booze, smoking etc

#15 Emily33-

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:01 AM

ere are a few links to Prof James McKenna's work on SIDS and cosleeping and breastfeeding which address some of the points raised by PPs.

Why babies should never sleep alone: A review of the co-sleeping controversy in relation to SIDS, bedsharing and breast feeding - James J. McKenna and Thomas McDade
http://www.naturalchild.org/james_mckenna/cosleeping.pdf

36. Does Breastfeeding reduce the chances of SIDS?
http://cosleeping.nd.edu/frequently-asked-questions/#36


Bakesgirl - I hope this info isn't used to make you or anyone who doen't tick all the boxes feel guilty.  There are heaps of intuitive, bottlefeeding mothers out there safely bedsharing.

I'd like to see a breakdown of SIDS deaths of those who conscientiously bedshare as opposed to those who bring baby in to bed as a last resort when they've never done it before and are exhausted after a long night and also separate stats from SIDS deaths resulting from sleeping on the lounge. And also what the percentage of cot deaths are.

I think James McKenna discusses all of this in the article I linked in. It's been a while since I read it.


#16 Rosiebird

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE (Emily33- @ 17/03/2012, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are heaps of intuitive, bottlefeeding mothers out there safely bedsharing.

I'd like to see a breakdown of SIDS deaths of those who conscientiously bedshare as opposed to those who bring baby in to bed as a last resort when they've never done it before and are exhausted after a long night


Well said.

#17 Soontobegran

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:09 AM

QUOTE (EssentialBludger @ 17/03/2012, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not getting it either. Are we talking about smothering or SIDS? they're two different things.


I think they are too completely different causes of death which should not be lumped under the SIDS umbrella.
A baby who dies from being smothered, particularly by a drug or alcohol effected mother would probably not have died otherwise and this type of parent should be criminally charged accordingly.
A baby who has died in bed with no apparent causative feature is a SIDS  death.

In my time as a midwife we have had 4 babies who died in hospital in their bassinette either beside their mum's bed or in the nursery. They had all been checked recently...this is SIDS.

Edited by soontobegran, 17 March 2012 - 10:11 AM.


#18 Guest_tigerdog_*

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:17 AM

QUOTE
I think they are too completely different causes of death which should not be lumped under the SIDS umbrella.


Agreed, I don't know what all the calls on this thread to separate the stats are about, to my knowledge the stats on SIDS deaths relate to exactly that - they never have included deaths by smothering, overlying or any other explainable cause of death.

Edited by tigerdog, 17 March 2012 - 10:18 AM.


#19 Emily33-

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:18 AM

You can find the following SIDS and Kids Information Statements here: http://www.sidsandkids.org/safe-sleeping/i...ion-statements/

Sleeping with Baby
Roomsharing with Baby

The info statements refer to SIDS, SUDI (Sudden Unexpected Deaths in Infancy) and Fatal Sleep Accidents.

Perhaps the article/coroner refers to SIDS in the article to save rattling off the more specific names, which all fall under the work of the SIDS and Kids organsiation.



#20 Alvarywinters

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:21 AM

Thanks for the links Emily33

I love this quote from the pdf - "While recent cultural implements such as cribs, mattresses and bedding did not evolve to protect and feed infants throughout the night, protective maternal behaviours including bodily contact between the mother and infant during co-sleeping most certainly did."

Lumping something like drug use with something so natural and instinctive like co-sleeping is asking for inconsistency!

Edited by Alvarywinters, 17 March 2012 - 10:25 AM.


#21 bakesgirls

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (Emily33- @ 17/03/2012, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why babies should never sleep alone: A review of the co-sleeping controversy in relation to SIDS, bedsharing and breast feeding - James J. McKenna and Thomas McDade
http://www.naturalchild.org/james_mckenna/cosleeping.pdf

36. Does Breastfeeding reduce the chances of SIDS?
http://cosleeping.nd.edu/frequently-asked-questions/#36


Thanks for posting this. It certainly made for an interesting read. original.gif

#22 whydoibother

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 17/03/2012, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're right of course SarahM72, SIDS and overlying are different but in my own mind I tend to lump them together as 'waking up to see your baby has passed away'. I know that sleeping separately would prevent the risk of overlying but in my own mind, I wonder whether it increases the risk of SIDS. My (uneducated) opinion on the matter is that if kangaroo care/skin-to-skin helps regulate a newborn's breathing and heart rate, then having your baby next to you all night where he/she can hear you breathing and feel your heartbeat will also stimulate the baby enough to prevent apnoeas.



I agree-I have co slept with all mine (esp the boys) and Samuel I did from veyr early and I just kept the pillows and blankets away from him.  Now he is older he still sleeps with me in our bed and I find he pushes the blankets away and pillows away anyway.

The alternative for me is the cot/bassinett next to the bed which I did as well.  It was good when Noah was ill as a newborn as I could hear him breathing etc and he was still safe.

On the couch I only napped with them on the edge side and when there was another adult around

#23 Froger

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

Thanks for the links Emily33. I have just read them and they were very interesting. Confirming my own thoughts. (I guess that's probably why I enjoyed reading them  biggrin.gif ).

#24 Fossy

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:00 AM

I have attended two cases where co sleeping babies have died, both cases the mother accidentally smothered the baby while asleep, they were both ruled accidental death, not SIDS.  fwiw all safe sleeping practices were followed in both cases, just tragic.

#25 MrsNorthman

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:12 AM

The same way it is unfair for the Coroner to apply such a blanket statement to cosleeping, I believe it is also unfair to apply a blanket statement by cosleepers that it is unlikely to happen because of being "in tune" with the baby etc.

The problem IMO with cosleeping is that very rarely are people actually doing it properly and safely.  They often don't provide a secondary safe place for baby to sleep if they are feeling particularly tired that night (we all know that happens).  There is also no mattress on the market in Australia that is considered *safe* for a newborn to sleep on, ie not being hard enough and most cosleepers do not address this issue with any kind of solution.

I agree that the stats need to accurately or at least more accurately reflect cosleeping by separating those who have coslept whilst on drugs or alcohol etc.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

Help! My baby will only sleep in my arms

It's stressful to be the one who is holding your baby most of the day, but it's even more stressful to wonder, 'am I doing something wrong? Or am I creating bad habits?'

Five-year-old's photo captures beauty of motherhood

There is no make-up or special outfits and hairdos, but the five-year-old boy who took this picture captured the essence of motherhood as well as any professional photographer.

POLL: Which expert do you want to talk to?

Take our super quick poll to let us know what kind of expert you'd like to talk to.

Babies know whether you are naughty or nice

Studies have shown that infants in the first months of life try to avoid dealing with social wrongdoers - for example, sharing less with them and helping them less - and they expect others to, too.

What's your family's illness curse?

I'm a firm believer that every family has their 'curse' : the illness that plagues them but seems to bypass other families.

Bride shaves her head at wedding to pay tribute to ill husband

The idea of shaving your head at your wedding would sound terrifying to many brides - however this woman did it, and for the most heartbreaking reason.

When do you stop swearing around a baby?

You don't really want your baby's first word to be the f-word. So when do you stop talking freely around them?

Exclusive Black Friday Sale!

Get over 40% off selected products, including prams, baby carriers, cloth nappies, sleeping bags and much more! 24 hours only, on May 6 - register now for your special code.

Mum left fuming after being forced to dump 15 litres of breast milk at airport

Aviation officials at London's Heathrow Airport forced a nursing mother to dump nearly four gallons (nearly 15 litres) of breast milk.

Health authorities lost track of complaints about controversial midwife

New Zealand hospital bosses were warned about a childbirth educator's controversial and dangerous teachings 10 years ago, but it appears nothing was done.

Would you pay someone to name your baby?

"If you are getting somebody who really knows the evidence, then I'll say it's worth every penny, whether its $500 or $5000."

How much exercise is okay when you’re breastfeeding?

After having each of my babies, I was keen to get back into exercising. Following lots of back pain during pregnancy that restricted my movement, once those babies were out I couldn't wait to move properly again.

Pre-conception health tips for men

As it turns out, conceiving a baby isn't just about fertility and women's health.

Can you spot the 11 dangers to your baby?

Some are difficult to see at first glance, but they can be dangerous to our little loved ones.

Toddler survives near drowning, wakes up with ability to speak

It was moving day for the Holiday family from West Seattle. The family of four were moving just a few houses down the street, and both homes were a hive of activity.

Amniotic fluid embolism and blood clots in pregnancy

Two types of embolism that can occur include amniotic fluid embolism (AFE) and venous thromboembolism (VTE, or clots in the blood).

Little girl's dream comes true when she meets garbage man

She always wanted to meet her bin man, who drives by her house and honks at her each time.

What to expect when you go from two to four

Elyce and her husband had a four-year-old and a two-year-old - both boys - when they received the news they were expecting twin sons.

The latest news on treating and trying to prevent eczema

Eczema is a disease which affects up to one in four children under the age of two in Australia. (SPONSORED)

What's new so far: prams & strollers of 2016

It's time to round up the new prams of 2016; here's your guide to what's new and improved in the pram world.

Baby's death leads to warnings over portacot mattresses

The death of a baby whose head got stuck between a foam mattress and a cot side has prompted a public safety caution.

The grandmother offering a safe haven for babies in need

Like most people, Catherine Lucre is left heartbroken when she hears news that a baby has been abandoned or killed.

 
Advertisement
 

Top 5 Articles

Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

The babies who are one in 70 million

Bethani Webb was excited to find out she was pregnant, but the first time mum did not realise she was carrying four babies not one.

Exclusive Black Friday Sale!

Get over 40% off selected products, including prams, baby carriers, cloth nappies, sleeping bags and much more! 24 hours only, on May 6 - register now for your special code.

Cafe offers breastfeeding mums a free cup of tea

A Sydney cafe is offering breastfeeding mums free cups of tea in a bid to show support for the right of women to nurse their babies wherever they choose.

To snip or not to snip? When the decision is not clear cut

Jamie Oliver, who considered a vasectomy, is to be a father again. A fellow dad reflects on his own decision 11 years ago

Doctors stunned by rare twins born almost six weeks apart

To everyone's surprise, Kristen Miller "kept doing better each day", keeping her second baby safe.

Baby book ideas for modern parents

Before my son was born I was given a lovely baby book full of blank pages waiting to be filled with weights and heights and first words.

The adorable smile of a baby seeing his mum clearly for the first time

There is no doubt seeing their child smile for the first time is an unforgettable moment for parents everywhere.

Mum tells how toddler 'nearly hung himself' in cot mishap

When Alison Johnson put her 18-month-old Caleb down for a nap, she had no reason to believe her son was in any danger.

Babies are still switched at birth? Yes, it can happen

All my panic and tears aside, my biggest question looking back is about the kind of security measures used in the maternity ward.

Doctors slammed for taking selfie with newborn

Everyone who visits a mum in hospital in the days following childbirth wants to get a photo with the new baby.

ergoPouch Twosie Sleepsuit for winter breastfeeding

Finally, there's a way to keep warm while breastfeeding through winter.

Health check: How long does sex 'normally' last?

What to do with this information? My advice would be to try not to think about it during the throes of passion.

When breastfeeding sucks: fixing common problems

From niplash to tight boobs, biting to milk supply issues, Pinky McKay looks at common breastfeeding issues and how to solve them.

10 things I've learnt in my first six months with twins

Six months on we're all still alive, and the more we get to know each other the easier the days become.

Mum's loving kiss leaves baby fighting for life

Kirsty Carrington thought nothing of giving her newborn son a kiss, little did she know it would leave the baby fighting for life.

When doing chores is your new 'me time'

After children, 'me time' looks a little different.

Get going: 14 travel strollers for families on the move

A stroller can make or break travelling with a baby or toddler. Here are 15 great single travel stroller options.

10 ways toddlers are terrific

It always pays to remind yourself of how terrific toddlers can be - they're little like this for such a short time

 

ENTER NOW

Do your kids love bananas?

This is the comp for you! We have $800 worth of Myer gift cards and boxes of Australian Bananas to be won. Entry is simple: just post a pic of your little one enjoying a banana in the comments of the FB post to enter.

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.