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Ban the Burka?
Do Muslims really like wearing it?


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#1 jmag

Posted 07 May 2010 - 07:44 AM

Hi all,

Just watching the news and this topic was brought up on TODAY.

Just after being at work the other day and it came up over lunch that France had banned it in their country. Also a lady I work with wears the head piece but doesn't cover her whole face as she doesn't like it.

I am a bit naieve about the religion/culture and was wondering why they actually wear it and if they acually like wearing it?



Muslim womans feedback welcome too!

Just curious... original.gif

#2 ozbilby

Posted 07 May 2010 - 07:55 AM

To start with I am not Muslim but I do have several Muslim friends. I think that banning the practice of religon of any kind is the beginning of the end of civil rights. Out of three of my Muslim friends two wear the hajib (the hair covering) and one does not. They are not forced either way it is a personal choice. I would be livid if somebody told me I could no longer wear what I wanted too!

#3 LunaBlue

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:00 AM

No one is talking about the head covering, but the whole body and face covering. In Sydney where we lived I used to see several women wear a full Burka and I would think man that must be hot in summer. These women were ALWAYS in pairs and ALWAYS had a man with them (usually ahead of them). Here in Brisbane I have only seen it once and also thought about the heat.

Not sure about banning it, but it surely must be uncomfortable in the heat

#4 Roobear

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:04 AM

I am fuming after hearing this.

I can't believe people are still using the ignorant western idea that women are forced to wear the burqa. I am not a muslim, but have a few friends that are and it is their choice. It is a decision they make between them and their God.

If we are going to ban the burqa - we need to ban all religious symbols.

#5 missjoads1234

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE
If a woman chooses to wear it, that's fine. If a woman feels she's being forced to wear it, that's not OK.


This  original.gif

The only thing that doesnt seem right is how they are allowed to get away with wearing it completely covering their face, when entering places that ask you to remove helmets etc etc. Who knows ? They may be using it as a disguse and if a place demands to remove head gear, they should do comply with this.



#6 miriams

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:07 AM

I have to admit that personally I do not like the burqa at all. I have only seen someone wear it once or twice though . The burqa is that garment which completely covers with a small mesh for the face. Far more common is the abaya (black overcoat) combined with a black niqab (faceveil).  I quite like the hijab (headscarf) - where I live the girls wear them very fashionably  laugh.gif The niqab  makes me feel completely alienated and as though those wearing it, and those accompanying them, think I am impious and impure for wearing a skirt and blouse and not covering up further. Of course, no such thought may be running through their heads.  I'm not sure that legally banning the faceveil would help....it might just mean that these women never get to go out at all whereas now they might be allowed out with friends if they wear it. As a PP said, banning what people wear is the start to the end of civil rights. Which, of course, some people want (think the likes of those who supported Mussolini et al last time and did rather well out of it). It will end badly for all of us who do not share their views, not just Muslims.

#7 Gangnam Style

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:10 AM

QUOTE
Not sure about banning it, but it surely must be uncomfortable

G-strings look pretty uncomfortable to me too. Many women wear them to please men...perhaps they should be banned?

#8 zenah18

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:13 AM

I am Muslim, I don’t wear the scarf, however I know quite a Muslim chicks who do, and they are really displease and hurt about all what’s been going on. None of them were forced to wear it; they are really talented, independent, educated, beautiful women. The ones that wear the burka are by choice too!!
p.s none of these ladies I know walk ONLY in pairs, lollllllll oh and with a dude too!! Lol how funny.  I honestly almost p*ssed myself reading that.  roll2.gif  laughing2.gif  roll2.gif  grin.gif  hahahaha


#9 Sweet like a lemon

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:17 AM

QUOTE (ozbilby @ 07/05/2010, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To start with I am not Muslim but I do have several Muslim friends. I think that banning the practice of religon of any kind is the beginning of the end of civil rights.


This. I think it is up to the individual. If a Muslim woman does not choose to wear one, it is entirely her right. If a Muslim woman chooses to wear one, that is entirely her right too.
I would sooner see hoodies and bum huggers (jeans worn mainly to expose the polyester boxer undies) banned.

#10 kpingitquiet

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:18 AM

From what I know of muslim tradition, growing up in a fairly muslim-heavy area, the purpose of the niqab/veiled-burqa/chadi (the actual face-covering portion of women's clothing) may have begun as a practical measure in sandy/windy environments and was also possibly a way to conceal women of childbearing age, letting them blend with older women, to avoid kidnap when raids were common. It evolved into a commitment to modesty, outlined as very important in the Qur'an as several of Muhummad's wives covered themselves and veiled when in the presence of non-familial men.

It is not uncommon in many orthodox religions to cover one's hair, face, arms, legs, etc. for various reasons. And there are no definitve answers on whether it's God's law or not, of course. Muslim scholars/clerics disagree on the issue amongst themselves. But to many modern muslim women, they feel it is a symbol of their deep love of God and commitment to their faith, just as some nuns see their habits in a similar light, and why many jewish women cover their hair. It removes a sense of vanity, not showing one's face, theoretically allowing more thought-time for religious and family matters.

I don't feel it's my place to agree or disagree with the practice. I do not believe muslim women are more or less likely to commit crimes than any other women in the world. There are a billion ways to conceal one's face for criminal purposes--Anyone see the story on the toilet-paper wrapped robber, this week? Are we going to outlaw tp? I do believe that if we don't start treating muslims as normal, run-of-the-mill people, not suspects, we will do nothing but create more bad will and anger in the population. People have always picked on groups that were somehow different and claimed they were worse than others...Black people, immigrants, Jews, etc...it's never done anything but harm when those feelings remain high in the popular agenda.



#11 Guest_missmeow_*

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:18 AM

I think it is a woman's right to wear whatever she wants wherever she wants.

If someone wants to wear a Burka knock go for it, if you want to wear a mini skirt go for it. Just because I don't doesn't mean I care.

France should be ashamed and appalled. I pray that no such legislation ever is proposed in Austalia let alone becomes legislation.

#12 casime

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:29 AM

I don't care what people wear (although as one PP said, showing your undies over the top of your jeans makes me  sick.gif )

I do think they should be prepared to be uncovered in a passport photo and to show their face to prove their identity.   All the international airports I  have been through will take the woman aside and ask her to show her face to a female officer for identity purposes, and I have no problems with this, as it is a security issue.

#13 TEN!

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:31 AM

In Afghanistan, where women were forced to wear the burqa, most of them hated it.

In Australia, I think it is a political statement and nothing to do with freedom of religion.  Same with France.  Good on France for banning something which represents a fundamental rejection of their way of life.

If people seriously want to dress that way, then they should have stayed in countries where it is the norm.  I know some wonderful Muslim ladies.  None of them wear a hijab, much less a niqab or burqa.  Its not a religious requirement.

Edited by Privileged, 07 May 2010 - 08:31 AM.


#14 jp123

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:54 AM

Some interesting points to take into consideration: (I have been living in France for 15 months)

France is one of three countries in the world that are technically secular. This is, religion and the state have been very clearly seperated for a long time. It is a consitutional matter and culturally very significant. Many French catholics do not wear the cross for this reason. This also might help explain how the Burqua is seen as not conductive with French way of life.

Also, 7% of France's population is muslim. This is much higher than australia's rate and from my experience living in France, there is a big community divide. With a larger muslim population than here, Burqa wearing is more "in-your-face" than here. I think the overall senitment there is that it goes beyond a small minortiy doing as they please but starts to become a real change in the cultural landscape. The move towards modesty could be seen as a backwards regression from the country that introduced and popularised topless bathing.

Additionally, France's immigration policy is much like a melting pot. Immigrants are expected to integrate and the burqua could possibly be seen as an outward disregard for this concept.

Anyway, I'm not saying that I agree with France's policy (I'm undecided), but as a person who has made a serious attempt and intergrating into the French way of life, I hope i can offer some of my understanding of the cultural ideas behind the policy, and hope that people can look at the issue from France's perspectives, not Australia's.



#15 niggles

Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:57 AM

QUOTE
One thing to be fearful of is the slow chipping away of our liberties and rights.


Amen to that.

Chip, chip...chip, chip.

#16 ~~nik~~

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:15 AM

I really couldn't care less what people where but a random question pops into my head........  If the burka is ok to wear in pubic (banks, airports etc) is it ok to wear a full faced motor bike helmut where the face is also concealed?

6 for one, half a dozen for the other.

#17 kpingitquiet

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:19 AM

QUOTE (~~nik~~ @ 07/05/2010, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really couldn't care less what people where but a random question pops into my head........ If the burka is ok to wear in pubic (banks, airports etc) is it ok to wear a full faced motor bike helmut where the face is also concealed?

6 for one, half a dozen for the other.


I suppose that all depends on whether or not the helmet-wearing person in question is a member of an established and recognized helmet-wearing faith. A hobby is not the same as one's religious practice.

#18 jayare

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:22 AM

QUOTE (kpingitquiet @ 07/05/2010, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From what I know of muslim tradition, growing up in a fairly muslim-heavy area, the purpose of the niqab/veiled-burqa/chadi (the actual face-covering portion of women's clothing) may have begun as a practical measure in sandy/windy environments and was also possibly a way to conceal women of childbearing age, letting them blend with older women, to avoid kidnap when raids were common. It evolved into a commitment to modesty, outlined as very important in the Qur'an as several of Muhummad's wives covered themselves and veiled when in the presence of non-familial men.

It is not uncommon in many orthodox religions to cover one's hair, face, arms, legs, etc. for various reasons. And there are no definitve answers on whether it's God's law or not, of course. Muslim scholars/clerics disagree on the issue amongst themselves. But to many modern muslim women, they feel it is a symbol of their deep love of God and commitment to their faith, just as some nuns see their habits in a similar light, and why many jewish women cover their hair. It removes a sense of vanity, not showing one's face, theoretically allowing more thought-time for religious and family matters.

I don't feel it's my place to agree or disagree with the practice. I do not believe muslim women are more or less likely to commit crimes than any other women in the world. There are a billion ways to conceal one's face for criminal purposes--Anyone see the story on the toilet-paper wrapped robber, this week? Are we going to outlaw tp? I do believe that if we don't start treating muslims as normal, run-of-the-mill people, not suspects, we will do nothing but create more bad will and anger in the population. People have always picked on groups that were somehow different and claimed they were worse than others...Black people, immigrants, Jews, etc...it's never done anything but harm when those feelings remain high in the popular agenda.


cclap.gif  
well said.

#19 Sweet like a lemon

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE (Privileged @ 07/05/2010, 08:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In Afghanistan, where women were forced to wear the burqa, most of them hated it.

In Australia, I think it is a political statement and nothing to do with freedom of religion.  Same with France.  Good on France for banning something which represents a fundamental rejection of their way of life.

If people seriously want to dress that way, then they should have stayed in countries where it is the norm.  I know some wonderful Muslim ladies.  None of them wear a hijab, much less a niqab or burqa.  Its not a religious requirement.


Is that how you feel, or is this just another inflammatory post designed to make people feel as p*ssed off as you?

#20 Flimsy*But*Fun

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE
I do think they should be prepared to be uncovered in a passport photo and to show their face to prove their identity. All the international airports I have been through will take the woman aside and ask her to show her face to a female officer for identity purposes, and I have no problems with this, as it is a security issue.
This is reasonable, I think.

Banning an article of clothing seems completely unreasonable.  If covering the face is an issue, they should ban beanies and scarves.  When I walked the streets of Paris in a November very many years ago, I had a beanie to my eyebrows and a woollen scarf pulled up past my nose!  You could only see my eyes.

#21 adandtia

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:26 AM

QUOTE
France is one of three countries in the world that are technically secular. This is, religion and the state have been very clearly seperated for a long time. It is a consitutional matter and culturally very significant. Many French catholics do not wear the cross for this reason. This also might help explain how the Burqua is seen as not conductive with French way of life.


This. I'm undecided either way but I do understand where they are coming from. Why should it not be important to keep it a secular society?
Personally, I find the burqua very confronting. Not being able to see one's face makes it very difficult to comunicate with them.


#22 ~~nik~~

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:30 AM

QUOTE (kpingitquiet @ 07/05/2010, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I suppose that all depends on whether or not the helmet-wearing person in question is a member of an established and recognized helmet-wearing faith. A hobby is not the same as one's religious practice.

The point is not WHY THE PERSON WEARS the helmut it but WHY ISN"T THE PERSON ALLOWED TO WEAR the helut in certain places.  Would these reason not apply to any person covering their face?


My personal opinion is live and let live.  If the burka is what they want to wear then let them wear it - much like if you want to wear a helmut all day long.



#23 niggles

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:36 AM

QUOTE
The point is not WHY THE PERSON WEARS the helmut it but WHY ISN"T THE PERSON ALLOWED TO WEAR the helut in certain places. Would these reason not apply to any person covering their face?


Bring to mind for a moment a deeply held belief that you have. I'm talking about a position that you wouldn't change and which would make you feel compromised to do so....Now imagine someone is comparing that to a trivial habit another person has and which they can change with at most a minor inconvenience.

That is the difference between a face covering which represents a moral belief and a bike helment, mask, fashion accessory etc.

#24 Oma Desala

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:38 AM

QUOTE
If we are going to ban the burqa - we need to ban all religious symbols.
cclap.gif

QUOTE
All the international airports I have been through will take the woman aside and ask her to show her face to a female officer for identity purposes, and I have no problems with this, as it is a security issue.
This is also done in most banks when you need to prove your identification with photo ID.  They ask you to join them in a side room so as not to offend the customer.

I have no problem with women wearing a burka.  I see it no different to wearing a star of david or crucifix.

#25 Blish

Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:42 AM

I only have one Muslim friend. She is 5th generation Australian and converted to Islam a few years ago. She wears the garb where her face is visible but the rest of her hair and clothing are covert (forgive my ignorance of what it's called - Hajib I think) and she wears this by choice. Her husband is not a Muslim.
I cannot speak for other Muslims.




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