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Kids, body autonomy and medical treatment


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#26 seayork2002

Posted 29 August 2019 - 01:55 PM

View PostKafkaesque, on 29 August 2019 - 01:13 PM, said:

All well and good to say it’s not negotiable but how do you force a tween/teen? I haven’t been able to physically restrain my kids since they were about 11.

We use what I call unwritten bribery

not 'we will buy/do X if you get this injection done'

but 'ok so it is injection day, once the injection is done we will go and spend more than we want to buy you whatever we can think of just get the blooming thing out the way and stop being dramatic' (said to ourselves NOT DS)

#27 gettin my fance on

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:09 PM

DD was always a very compliant toddler and child for all her vaccinations (and at the time she was having extras that weren't yet on the schedule).

Vaccinations were never and would never have been up for discussion in this house.

As a toddler DD had VUR and had daily antibiotics to prevent infection.  Even then, she was happy to have it, and would remind us if we had forgotten to give it to her before bedtime and it was an awful taste.

For those who might find themselves with a needle phobic child, the questions to ask yourselves would be which is preferable - possible trauma of having the needle vs possible death (themselves or other family members) or permanent disability from the disease.

#28 Feral-as-Meggs

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:15 PM

View PostWTFancie shmancie, on 29 August 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:

DD was always a very compliant toddler and child for all her vaccinations (and at the time she was having extras that weren't yet on the schedule).

Vaccinations were never and would never have been up for discussion in this house.

As a toddler DD had VUR and had daily antibiotics to prevent infection.  Even then, she was happy to have it, and would remind us if we had forgotten to give it to her before bedtime and it was an awful taste.

For those who might find themselves with a needle phobic child, the questions to ask yourselves would be which is preferable - possible trauma of having the needle vs possible death (themselves or other family members) or permanent disability from the disease.

It’s not as simple as that.  The third bit of the equation is the child’s lifetime interaction with doctors and the medical system as a whole.  So many adults have teeth rotted out of their mouth due to fear of dentists.  Or ignore symptoms for years until it is too late.   So it’s worth spending time to work with your child so they can make good medical choices on their own

#29 Dianalynch

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:17 PM

we all have to do things we don't want to do, sometimes for the benefit of others as well, herd vaccination being one of them, I have explained the social contract to DD, most kids aren't selfish and can see the benefits for not only their own health, but that of others. I will answer and explain any questions my kids have on vaccinations and medicine, endless questions, but refusal is not an option when it comes to their health and the health of others, it just isn't

when dd was 2 I came close to having to physically restrain her to take antibiotics...it took 45 minutes of patient explanations, several attempts, more explanations, comforting, reassurance, and then she took it. she still hates taking any kind of medication, and vaccines, but it's not an option as risking the health of other people, the frail and the vulnerable, is just not okay

for a genuine phobia seeking treatment for that might be worthwhile - psychologist, hypnotist, whatever works

eta they had such a lovely time with the practice nurse giving them treats after their last flu shots and meningococcal vaccines I think they'll be lining up for them in future

Edited by Dianalynch, 29 August 2019 - 02:19 PM.


#30 ytt

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:18 PM

I was with my 16 year old at the specialist tweeking her meds. Doctor asked if I agreed and I said well I suppose it's up to DD as she has to take them and have the side effects and as she is getting older she needs more say in her treatment. He refused to give them unless I said she could have them, said that I am still the one in charge.... I just hated saying yes to more meds , DD wanted them so I said yes :(

We don't do flu jabs here. I think DD had hers this year - she works part time as a medical receptionist so she really needs the vax - I think she had it at work.

All other vax were done at the doctors surgery, not at school.

DD just went on BCP, I didn't allow it until she had clearance from her specialist. I'm not anti BCP I just needed to make sure it wouldn't clash with other meds or moods. Once he gave the okay I bought it for her.

#31 Murderino

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:19 PM

I wonder about this for my DS who resisted the flu shot this year and last year but I’ve held him and he has had it.

He needed a blood test a few weeks ago and I EMLAd both arms but he felt it as she moved the needle around inside his arm and he was crying a lot although he stayed still. She was very unkind about his crying and and I think he will be more resistant for the flu shot next year. I’m not sure what I will do because he’s 8 and will be having it.

On the other hand he saw a paed about an issue and the paed wanted to look at his bottom - to check for normal development in terms of spine etc. DS refused to take his pants down and the paed explained to DS that he did get to choose who looks at his private areas but that it was okay to let a doctor look with mum or dad present. When DS still refused he respected that. I guess it helps we are pretty confident that the problem DS it is not due to a physical development issue so it wasn’t a disaster that DS refused.

So like some PPs it also depends on what the medical procedure is.

#32 *Nasty*Squeekums*

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:21 PM

View PostLallalla, on 29 August 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:


That said, my oldest is 5. How do you get an unwilling teen to agree (I suspect the promise of lollipops and kinder surprises have less impact as they get older...)?

I was that teen and simple answer is for the headstrong teen with a phobia, you wont.
I was last restrained at 10 years old for MMR i think it was. I had a person on each arm, person on each leg and the gp. I broke an arm free, broke the GP nose.
That was after i hid up top of a tree for 6 hours

View PostCrombek, on 29 August 2019 - 11:55 AM, said:

I grew up incredibly needle phobic, and ds1 is also very phobic with ALL things medical. I really struggle with this. I would 100% have preferred to be delirious in hospital before they gave me a needle. I would risk death. It’s not a rational fear and it cannot be approached rationally.

I absolutely let him choose whether to take painkillers. He usually doesn’t. We used to try to force it down his throat but what do you do when they then vomit it all back up??? It honestly wasn’t worth the angst. With antibiotics we found we needed one in tablet form we could crush into orange juice and make sure he doesn’t see us do it, or he vomits it back up after an hour of cajoling, bribing, forcing etc.

Needles I really really struggle with. I can’t be the one taking ds1. It triggers his phobia, it triggers my phobia and we end up in a situation where he cannot sleep for days after, and he spends weeks tearfully begging us to never take him to the dr again.

He’s had all his needles to date except meningococcal b, and I have no idea how we are going to approach that one considering the mess that occurred last time.

Completely understand where your coming from. Id risk death too, i didnt even have bloods done in pregnancy.
DP does all dd needles as i cant go, it will make her and me worse.
She also gets the choice of pain killers or not

#33 Crombek

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:24 PM

Yeah, nah. That’s not going to work with a needle phobic kid. They will quite happily break your jaw with their foot to escape.

We’ve tried every bribe under the sun, but in the moment the frontal lobe disconnects and suddenly you’re dealing with a cornered animal. Of course they feel terrible afterwards, but it doesn’t stop it happening.

ETA: this was a response to people talking about using bribery

Edited by Crombek, 29 August 2019 - 02:26 PM.


#34 *Nasty*Squeekums*

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:31 PM

View PostWTFancie shmancie, on 29 August 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:


For those who might find themselves with a needle phobic child, the questions to ask yourselves would be which is preferable - possible trauma of having the needle vs possible death (themselves or other family members) or permanent disability from the disease.

restraining, tricking, bribes, explaining, yelling and screaming at me did nothing but cause more trauma associated with anything medical.

I now dont see a gp for me EVER
Last time i did was DD 6 week check, DD is now 9

When i had dd i was that scared of the entire environment i had to fight for an early discharge so i didnt lose my crap. I also had to fight the hospital to have a female friend stay the one night i did have to stay in to keep me calm. I didnt even begin to bond with DD till i got home

#35 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:34 PM

Murderino I will say that as someone who has an intense dislike of needles (from hospital stay as a kid where they gave me needles which did nothing but increase pain), I have tried EMLA patches myself for needles.... and can say in all honesty they did sweet **** all.

I decided not to use these on my child who has a strong dislike and distrust of medical professionals after surgery twice as a preschooler, as there is nothing worse ( I know) being told X will help and it doesn’t.... it helps to reinforce the idea that the medical professionals don’t care.

I am the one who is honest with my kids and tell them it will hurt, but only for a short moment and remind them the more tense they are the more it will hurt.... that to be relaxed will result in better experience.

I say this as someone who had to physically restrain her 12yo for the Flu shot this year.

#36 Crombek

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:35 PM

View PostWTFancie shmancie, on 29 August 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:


For those who might find themselves with a needle phobic child, the questions to ask yourselves would be which is preferable - possible trauma of having the needle vs possible death (themselves or other family members) or permanent disability from the disease.

DS understands all of this. He WANTS to have the vax. I’m a psychologist. We have done everything. It’s a constant work in progress. It still doesn’t stop the fact that he totally and completely flips once his arm is bared.

What would actually be really helpful is if there was no waiting time. Straight in, bang, straight out. No time to work himself up. But of course that never ever happens, despite me explaining the situation over and over again.

And I completely agree with Meggs. We chose to have his 4 year vax at the council rather than the gp as we had worked SO hard just to get him comfortable going there at all I didn’t want to risk undoing it all.

#37 Bethlehem Babe

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:40 PM

I was that kid with blood tests. Still had to have them. Apparently there was a botched one at 10 ish, I can’t remember it. But it apparently took many attempts for it to happen.

Still not great on blood tests.

My youngest has had many many procedures in his life. Including holding him down and his eyes open. We work with the medical specialist to get what he needs, but often they will need to check over his toy completely before they lay hands on him. I demand they do it and talk him through everything going on.

My oldest, I know it sounds strange but I knew he’d built it up and would be ok. My youngest only freaked because eldest did.

#38 gettin my fance on

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:46 PM

View PostFeral-as-Meggs, on 29 August 2019 - 02:15 PM, said:

It’s not as simple as that.  The third bit of the equation is the child’s lifetime interaction with doctors and the medical system as a whole.  So many adults have teeth rotted out of their mouth due to fear of dentists.  Or ignore symptoms for years until it is too late.   So it’s worth spending time to work with your child so they can make good medical choices on their own

and if they still refuse?

What happens when the childteen is incredibly unwell and still refusing a needle/canula because of phobia?

Sepsis anyone?

#39 born.a.girl

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:47 PM

View PostCrombek, on 29 August 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

Yeah, nah. That’s not going to work with a needle phobic kid. They will quite happily break your jaw with their foot to escape.

We’ve tried every bribe under the sun, but in the moment the frontal lobe disconnects and suddenly you’re dealing with a cornered animal. Of course they feel terrible afterwards, but it doesn’t stop it happening.

ETA: this was a response to people talking about using bribery

Yep, a friend's son was turned into a needle phobic, after his needle resistance was treated scornfully and dismissively when he was about 12.


He says it feels like an invasion. Nothing to do with pain, he'd rather put up with pain than have an injection that fixes is.

After cutting open his head, he had to have valium before the anaesthetic, during which the hospital concerned were fantastic, and quickly gave him his required jabs to get him up to date, several years later.

#40 seayork2002

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:50 PM

View PostCrombek, on 29 August 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

Yeah, nah. That’s not going to work with a needle phobic kid. They will quite happily break your jaw with their foot to escape.

We’ve tried every bribe under the sun, but in the moment the frontal lobe disconnects and suddenly you’re dealing with a cornered animal. Of course they feel terrible afterwards, but it doesn’t stop it happening.

ETA: this was a response to people talking about using bribery

For a child who has a genuine needle phobia I get this, our son does not so for him bribery did work, no it does not work for all kids

#41 born.a.girl

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:52 PM

View PostWTFancie shmancie, on 29 August 2019 - 02:46 PM, said:

and if they still refuse?

What happens when the childteen is incredibly unwell and still refusing a needle/canula because of phobia?

Sepsis anyone?

Valium.

I appreciate with kids that it might sometimes be difficult to differentiate between 'I just don't want to because I don't like it' and a genuine phobia, because some phobias develop over time.

From what I've read and heard, the people concerned are not actually opposed to the treatment, it's them having to experience the treatment.

Person I mentioned above was more than happy to have vacs up to date while anaesthetised for something else.   Obviously not all anaesthetised people will be suitable candidates for immusation as it would depend on the reason for the surgery, but in this case he was.

#42 gettin my fance on

Posted 29 August 2019 - 02:57 PM

View PostCrombek, on 29 August 2019 - 02:35 PM, said:

DS understands all of this. He WANTS to have the vax. I’m a psychologist. We have done everything. It’s a constant work in progress. It still doesn’t stop the fact that he totally and completely flips once his arm is bared.



But the vaccination still happens doesn't it?  Or no?

#43 Crombek

Posted 29 August 2019 - 03:03 PM

that one, yes. We haven’t done the other though.

#44 BornToLove

Posted 29 August 2019 - 03:03 PM

We are very lucky that DD is one of those kids who actually isn’t fussed by needles. DD thinks the big deal the nurse makes is more annoying than the ‘quick pinch’ of the needle. At her flu shot this year, she told the nurse that she’s old enough to know it will hurt, but could she (nurse) hurry up as she (DD) really wanted the lolly she gets after 😂

#45 Murderino

Posted 29 August 2019 - 03:11 PM

View PostVeritas Vinum Arte, on 29 August 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:

Murderino I will say that as someone who has an intense dislike of needles (from hospital stay as a kid where they gave me needles which did nothing but increase pain), I have tried EMLA patches myself for needles.... and can say in all honesty they did sweet **** all.

I decided not to use these on my child who has a strong dislike and distrust of medical professionals after surgery twice as a preschooler, as there is nothing worse ( I know) being told X will help and it doesn’t.... it helps to reinforce the idea that the medical professionals don’t care.

I am the one who is honest with my kids and tell them it will hurt, but only for a short moment and remind them the more tense they are the more it will hurt.... that to be relaxed will result in better experience.

I say this as someone who had to physically restrain her 12yo for the Flu shot this year.

I know he didn’t feel it go in because he wasn’t watching it and he did not react at all as I watched it go in, he only reacted when she started moving it around. But he now has in his head it didn’t work so we won’t use it again for the same reason you mention. I had convinced him to try it by explaining I used it when I got my navel pierced - I didn’t feel the needle go in at all so it worked for me, I was telling him the truth as I knew it.

I also tell the truth that it will hurt but if we try and be relaxed it won’t hurt as much. Older child (who was always resistant until last year!) relaxed through their needle and told DS that it didn’t really hurt much - just a small sting. It’s ironic that until last year DS took all immunisations in his stride and didn’t react.

#46 *Nasty*Squeekums*

Posted 29 August 2019 - 03:12 PM

View PostWTFancie shmancie, on 29 August 2019 - 02:46 PM, said:

and if they still refuse?

What happens when the childteen is incredibly unwell and still refusing a needle/canula because of phobia?

Sepsis anyone?

We need sedation.
Be that valium or gas but for me i need to be as good as out on gas.

View Postborn.a.girl, on 29 August 2019 - 02:47 PM, said:

Yep, a friend's son was turned into a needle phobic, after his needle resistance was treated scornfully and dismissively when he was about 12.

He says it feels like an invasion. Nothing to do with pain, he'd rather put up with pain than have an injection that fixes is.

After cutting open his head, he had to have valium before the anaesthetic, during which the hospital concerned were fantastic, and quickly gave him his required jabs to get him up to date, several years later.
Invasion is a perfect word, its like fighting for our lives cos someone is trying to kill us.

When i had DD they HID the injection to deliver placenta from me and only told me about it after it was done and yellow tray was gone. I had no idea, its not a pain thing.
Ive broken bones in my foot and not seen a dr, the pain was better than the risk of a needle for me

#47 Kreme

Posted 29 August 2019 - 03:20 PM

DS11 has always been super compliant (lay completely still as a 2 year old while a cannula was inserted) but just recently he has started panicking a bit about needles. He had a blood test a few months ago and while the actual test was fine he fainted afterwards. His flu shot was scheduled a couple of weeks after and he started to make a fuss about it but I was firm that it had to be done because we couldn’t risk him getting sick again. I just had to hold his hands and the GP was very quick.

Recently he’s had suspected glandular fever and in consultation with the GP we’ve decided not to have the blood test to confirm it. He knows there will be times when it is necessary and times when it isn’t so I’m hoping that being flexible when we can be will help to reinforce that.

Vaccinations are not optional and for the time being we will just do what is necessary to get them done.


#48 Crombek

Posted 29 August 2019 - 03:23 PM

Exactly. My primal brain doesn’t see any difference between you coming at me with a needle & coming at my with a knife.

I’m actually not phobic anymore, and the only thing that worked was exposure. Plain and simple. Miscarriages & babies meant many many needles. Plus I believe that my brain accepted the risk of putting my own ‘life’ on the line for the sake of my unborn children. If I hadn’t had kids I fully believe I would still be just as phobic.

Edited by Crombek, 29 August 2019 - 06:58 PM.


#49 Chicken Pie

Posted 29 August 2019 - 03:51 PM

After terrible experience with a nurse doing blood test on DD - i used EMLA and told her we still needed to wait for it to numb and she was in a hurry (it was quiet so no idea why) and said it would already be numb

so DD listened and had smeone come in and help hold arm still.....the second it went in DD screamed something awful about it hurting and feeling it while i hugged her lying down

DD than said to me "why did you say it wouldnt hurt when it did" - her trust was broken and a traumatic intro to needles.

in hospital (suspected meningitis), they did cream etc and waited to do drip in hand. frankly drip in hand is the worst but her anxiety flattened her veins in her arms. she panicked but listened. I held onto her in prep, they sprayed that freezing stuff and i think the entire hospital thought she was being murdered. they also did not use a butterfly needle so this large needle in a tiny 8 yr old hand....i cried as much as she did just from that scream.

sadly every GP visit she says to me "are you sure no needles" she will likely fight to death in future for a needle so would need sedation because i will never let her experience such pain and trauma again

#50 nom_de_plume

Posted 29 August 2019 - 04:01 PM

View PostJenflea, on 29 August 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

Vaccinations are non negotiable in my house until DD is 18.

She's not needle phobic though and i explain why we do it and what happens.

She gets to choose her medical caregivers as much as possible(she expressed a preference for the female dentist over the male at the dentist she goes to, so I happily swapped to her) but ultimately I have ultimate decision as the parent.


She's 9.

This is our approach as well. DP and I are very pragmatic as we both work in healthcare.

Treatment or vaccination is not negotiable. Which provider you go to or where the treatment/vaccine is administered (doctors surgery, school, community centre etc.) is.




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