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Dog breeds - spin off


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#1 spr_maiden

Posted 21 August 2019 - 11:54 AM

Reading another thread,  I realised I don't quite understand dog breeding,  puppy mills, etc.  
For example,  my understanding is that labradoodles were originally bred by guide dogs Australia for people who needed an assistance dog but had allergies. My question is why are they considered puppy mill dogs?
Are they not a stand alone breed now? Is it possible to get a labradoodle that is not puppy mill? How do you know the breeder you purchase from is not a puppy mill?
We're looking for a dog.  Have been for a couple of years.  I read up on breed traits etc and it is hard to find a match for us.  Eg. Beagles are beautiful and sound gentle and friendly. A good size too.  But,  I don't know how suitable one is for living in city suburbs on smaller blocks.
Would love a rescue but with young children, the breeds that are on the rescue pages and us being first time dog owners,  I'm not confident in our ability to handle one.
So,  are all cross breeds puppy mill dogs? How do you tell?

#2 Ayr

Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:40 PM

All cross breeds regardless of their fancy oodle name are BYB or puppy farm dogs. They're not a stand alone breed therefore can not be bred by registered ethical breeders. Not all registered breeders are ethical, but no cross breeders are registered or ethical.

And buying an oodle because you have allergies won't necessarily work. Because it's a cross breed so it can take the traits of either dog. It could shed taking after the Labrador or whatever else the poodle was crossed with.

Pure breds look a certain way. Oodles can look very different depending which side they take after. Check out kellyville pets puppies for sale. Most are cavoodles but all look very different. Some probably shed, some probably have the cavalier heart condition etc..

So no not all cross breeds are puppy mill dogs. Some are BYB who breed for the cash without doing the appropriate health checks etc. Not an indursty worth supporting.

How do you know? Because it's a cross.

Edited by Ayr, 21 August 2019 - 12:41 PM.


#3 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:43 PM

For some people, pretty much yes, all cross breeds are "puppy mill" dogs, particularly if there is poodle in the mix.

There are some genuine concerns around the effects of cross breeding and they are worth listening to.

For me, the assumption that all cross breeds are "puppy farmed" is erroneous. My dog is a cross breed. He was a puppy on a sheep farm. Most of my dogs have been some degree of cross breed throughout my life - I am sure that even my very traditional looking border collie off the farm was not of pure lineage.

Edited by SkeptiHandsOnMum, 21 August 2019 - 12:45 PM.


#4 Hypnic Jerk

Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:49 PM

Here’s a definition from the RSPCA
https://kb.rspca.org...s-a-puppy-farm/

#5 mads19

Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:52 PM

will provide some dot points to help you:
  • Not all labradoodles are puppy mill pets but a lot of people breed for profit because people pay so much for the oodle dogs. Note: they are not an official breed. despite a lot of talk of '2nd or 3rd generation' oodles
  • Caring breeders only do a handful of  litters a year (2-5). It's a bad sign if a breeder has puppies available all the time, especially if they have lots of different varieties of oodles or other breeds. And forget Gumtree.
  • Good breeders like to meet with potential puppy owners to ensure you and the breed will be a good fit for each other--they don't want their puppies ending up in pounds or having a miserable life with people unable to care for them properly. And they usually have waiting lists. NEVER buy a puppy unless you have been to the breeder's property to meet the parents and view the facilities (all of them, not just the bits they want you to see)
  • Many caring breeders have a Facebook page that very clearly shows the daily life of all of their dogs. For example, our kelpie's breeder lists several photos a day (basically a blog of her dogs' daily life). Virtually every day in the life of her puppies is documented from their birth to the day they go to their new homes. It's clear they are raised indoors  with great love (she sleeps by the whelping box to ensure they are OK). Our kelpie is a dream because he comes from such a good breeder.
  • Contact breeders of breeds you are interested in to see if the breed will be the right fit for your family. Once you have narrowed down the breed, research and visit breeders
  • If you are in Vic, breeders have to be registered as domestic animal breeders and there are limits on how many breeding dogs they can own. It's also mandatory to include a source code for each puppy sold so their background can be traced. But I've heard puppy mills are getting around this by using 'foster carers' to register as owners so it looks like they are selling fewer dogs than they are.
  • Back to 'oodles'. One study found so-called hypo-allergenic dogs don't always drop less allergens than other breeds so no guarantee an oodle won't set off allergies.


#6 seayork2002

Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:54 PM

As I understand cross breeds are unethical and are all 'puppy mills' dogs or 'designer dogs'.

So I presume the only way to ensure it is buy a pure breed with proven lineage?

(this is just as I understand it)

#7 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:54 PM

View PostWTFJerk, on 21 August 2019 - 12:49 PM, said:

Here’s a definition from the RSPCA
https://kb.rspca.org...s-a-puppy-farm/
And a really informative article with some good information linked on how to avoid supporting puppy farms.

#8 kadoodle

Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:59 PM

View PostSkeptiHandsOnMum, on 21 August 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:

For some people, pretty much yes, all cross breeds are "puppy mill" dogs, particularly if there is poodle in the mix.

There are some genuine concerns around the effects of cross breeding and they are worth listening to.

For me, the assumption that all cross breeds are "puppy farmed" is erroneous. My dog is a cross breed. He was a puppy on a sheep farm. Most of my dogs have been some degree of cross breed throughout my life - I am sure that even my very traditional looking border collie off the farm was not of pure lineage.

Accidental and careless litters are a big thing with farm dogs, and I’m sure they still happen to a lesser extent in suburbia. Many vets won’t desex a b**ch prior to her first heat or 12 months old, so mistakes happen, and dog emergency contraception isn’t widely known about.

When I had a puppy on heat a few months ago, I returned from the school run to find a neighbouring kelpie stuck half in/half out of my bathroom window trying to get to her. Thankfully she was in her crate, but can dogs mate through bars? IDK? Ten minutes later and I might have found out.

#9 spr_maiden

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:01 PM

Thank you, this is good information.

So to reiterate,  an "oodle" is not a registered breed,  so no matter how caring the owner is, there are no checks in place to prove this? Is that right?

#10 Oriental lily

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:05 PM

I personally have nothing against cross breds . I do have a problem on how they exist in the first place .

Cross breds are created either through greed , irresponsibility ( not making  sure a b**ch is not ‘got at’) or ignorance ( the idea that a b**ch needs a litter).

There is no ethical reason why a cross bred should be purposeful bred .

It takes many years, much money and many generations to create a breed .

A breed is a line of dogs that breed true to a standard .

That has never been achieved by any oodle breeder . No matter what their fancy marketing says .

Edited by Oriental lily, 21 August 2019 - 01:05 PM.


#11 Ayr

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:06 PM

No. An oodle is a cross breed. If two undesexed dogs have an accidental litter as per the farm example they're usually sold off cheapish.

An oodle breeder will charge more than a pure bred. They're in it for the money. They can love their dogs all they want but they love the money made by them more.

Edited by Ayr, 21 August 2019 - 01:36 PM.


#12 kimasa

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:08 PM

View Postspr_maiden, on 21 August 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:


Would love a rescue but with young children, the breeds that are on the rescue pages and us being first time dog owners,  I'm not confident in our ability to handle one.


Have you looked at specific breed rescue agencies?

Edited by kimasa, 21 August 2019 - 01:08 PM.


#13 Oriental lily

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:09 PM

Wally Conran the guy originally behind the idea of breeding hypo allergic dogs as  seeing eye dogs deeply regrets it .

https://www.psycholo...ts-his-creation

#14 spr_maiden

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:12 PM

View Postkimasa, on 21 August 2019 - 01:08 PM, said:



Have you looked at specific breed rescue agencies?

I have looked at beagle rescue and I think it was cavalier rescue.  
I feel like it's a big decision and I want to make sure I'm not being sucked in by pretty pages which are not truly representative.  Is there usually just one state rescue group for breeds?

#15 kadoodle

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:13 PM

View PostOriental lily, on 21 August 2019 - 01:09 PM, said:

Wally Conran the guy originally behind the idea of breeding hypo allergic dogs as  seeing eye dogs deeply regrets it .

https://www.psycholo...ts-his-creation

Is there any reason poodles can’t actually be seeing eye dogs?

#16 born.a.girl

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:15 PM

View Postspr_maiden, on 21 August 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:

Reading another thread,  I realised I don't quite understand dog breeding,  puppy mills, etc.  
For example,  my understanding is that labradoodles were originally bred by guide dogs Australia for people who needed an assistance dog but had allergies. My question is why are they considered puppy mill dogs?
Are they not a stand alone breed now? Is it possible to get a labradoodle that is not puppy mill? How do you know the breeder you purchase from is not a puppy mill?
We're looking for a dog.  Have been for a couple of years.  I read up on breed traits etc and it is hard to find a match for us.  Eg. Beagles are beautiful and sound gentle and friendly. A good size too.  But,  I don't know how suitable one is for living in city suburbs on smaller blocks.
Would love a rescue but with young children, the breeds that are on the rescue pages and us being first time dog owners,  I'm not confident in our ability to handle one.
So,  are all cross breeds puppy mill dogs? How do you tell?


Don't feel bad about not being able to get a dog from a rescue.  I wouldn't be able to handle a large, strong dog, and the rescues are full of them.

We actually did get a 16 week old silky terrier cross (crossed with god knows what) from the Lost Dogs' Home, but that was purely good luck and he would have been snapped up had we not taken him, as does anything like him.

It's mostly the poorly trained, large dogs who are past the cute puppy stage that mostly end up in shelters now, and it takes special people to adopt them.

#17 blimkybill

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:16 PM

View Postkadoodle, on 21 August 2019 - 01:13 PM, said:

Is there any reason poodles can’t actually be seeing eye dogs?
Presumably it's a temperament thing. Guide dogs have to be super patient, super calm and unflappable, and smart. I don't claim to know poodles that well, but the poodles I have known have not exactly been unflappable and calm.

#18 Oriental lily

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:18 PM

In the article he said he tried for years to train one but none of them passed the test . They are a working breed but tend to be high energy . Being a Labrador owner myself they are very good at switching of a being a couch potato most of the day . Ones that switch of would be the ones who makes the best guide dogs . Might not just happen in a bouncy extremely intelligent poodles ?

#19 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:18 PM

View Postspr_maiden, on 21 August 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

So to reiterate,  an "oodle" is not a registered breed,  so no matter how caring the owner is, there are no checks in place to prove this? Is that right?
Except for kadoodle - she is registered here on EB

#20 spr_maiden

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:20 PM

Hahaha lucky for us she is too!

#21 PrincessPeach

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:20 PM

View Postkadoodle, on 21 August 2019 - 01:13 PM, said:



Is there any reason poodles can’t actually be seeing eye dogs?

Good question, ive seen them used as other types of assistamce dogs, so not sure.

But you can still be allergic to them, its not just dog hair that causes allergies. Like cats, their dander & saliva cause just as many issues for the allergy prone amongst us.

#22 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:21 PM

View PostAyr, on 21 August 2019 - 01:06 PM, said:

No. An oodle is a cross breed. If two undesexed dogs have an accidental litter as per the farm example they're usually sold off cheapish.

An oodle breeder will charge more than a pure bred. They're in it for the money. They can live their dogs all they want but they love the money made by them more.
True - I was going to mention price as a clue earlier ... some of the loveliest dogs in my life have been free because they were accidental farm dog pregnancies.

#23 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:23 PM

I have seen a "pure" (I assume, looks pretty straight poodle to my uneducated eye) poodle assistance dog, but not noticed any seeing eye dog "oodles".

#24 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:38 PM

In the interests of transparency, my current dog is an "oodle". I am very comfortable with where he came from (though he does eat lamb, which is no doubt a sin for a dog from a sheep farm), and with my logic at the time in choosing that cross/hybrid of dog. But I do support the puppy farming concerns and the concern that some traits (and negative health ones) are heightened when breeding for other "desirable" traits.

Would I specifically go an "oodle" again - probably not. But not because of any specific concern around the clown that I have, just that I have no "brand loyalty" when it comes to dogs and will be more in the position for a rescue dog than I thought I was when I got this dog.

Oh and for anyone who thinks that the non-shedding element of an "oodle" is a good thing, be committed to grooming or your mutt will matt.

I feel a bit like I am a bottle feeder when I take my cross-bred dog out in public some times.

#25 kadoodle

Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:40 PM

View PostSkeptiHandsOnMum, on 21 August 2019 - 01:23 PM, said:

I have seen a "pure" (I assume, looks pretty straight poodle to my uneducated eye) poodle assistance dog, but not noticed any seeing eye dog "oodles".

Same. A friend of my mum’s has a standard poodle as an assistance dog, as she’s mobility impaired. Her previous assistance dog was a lab. The well-being dog at the high school my kids go to is a lab, but the sports/ag sci assistant is a border collie.




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