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When are the naplan results out ?


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#201 Gumbette

Posted 25 September 2019 - 04:00 PM

I make her practice constantly.  Worksheets - you have no idea.  At 11 her handwriting is worse than most her friends were at 8.  I'm not exaggerating - I still have her birthday cards from that time.  She was the last in her class to receive her pen licence.  I'm at my wits end.  Even her number formation is terrible.  Ironic as I was an absolute dunce at school but boy did I have awesome penmanship!

Edited by Gumbette, 25 September 2019 - 04:00 PM.


#202 JoanJett

Posted 25 September 2019 - 04:50 PM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 25 September 2019 - 08:29 AM, said:

Writing has been declining of late. I believe it is to do with teachers not actually knowing how to teach writing’s technical aspects. The NAPLaN writing rubric has a lot more technical elements than your average teacher is looking for in a text. Teachers seem to be more heavily focused on students delivering content in the text rather than writing a technically accurate and varied piece. There is a mismatch between what teachers are teaching and looking for and what NAPLaN is assessing. So you will get students who normally write content the teacher ‘rubber stamps’ as A/B getting lower marks in the more technically marked NAPLaN and students who normally don’t deliver content required who do average or below as a result who can actually deliver the technical aspects who score better than expected in NAPLaN.

To me that is going to have as much impact, if not more, that online glitches. I had a class recently have their PAT test interrupted by a recalcitrant student who did exceptionally well in the test even though it was disrupted. I believe that has less impact than we credit it with.

I think NAPLaN is exposing a gap in the teaching of writing - not that the test is at fault. There was little difference between results of online tests and written samples - written scripts were not overall higher than online ones.

Why do you postulate that the teaching is the problem in the equation, and not the design of the test?  

https://www.nswtf.or...new_digital.pdf

"In sum, the NAPLAN writing essay, both its overall structure and marking scheme, is paradoxically both overly complex in its marking but simplistic and highly reductive in measuring of any reasonable formulation of the writing construct. Teaching to this test will make students poor writers by having them focus on non-essential tasks such as memorising spelling lists. NAPLAN’s influence in the classroom could even negatively affect Australia’s standing in international test scores."

#203 LiveLife

Posted 25 September 2019 - 05:10 PM

Totally agree JJ . If my kids teachers start teaching to this test I’d be horrified. DDs advanced English class was made to spend 1 lesson on naplan prep (Much to the teachers horror) so she tasked them to write a narrative that best met the marking criteria and then thrown it in the bin and never write like that again except on naplan day. This is when DDs friend cleverly wrote a narrative entitled something like ‘counting my naplan blessings’ it was the story of a girl enduring her last naplan writing test and it started with a sentence including ten big words and cued the reader to see the marking rubric unfold before their eyes . It was an exposition all about the marking rubrics stupidity and the negative effects it is having on students. She scored band 10.

#204 Expelliarmus

Posted 25 September 2019 - 05:14 PM

View PostPrancer is coming, on 25 September 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

It does.  My kid’s writing is such an issue that he has been diagnosed with a learning disability.  When he did the written naplan in grade 3, he scored about half way between the 50% mark and the bottom 20%.  This year online he scored about half way between the 50% mark and the top 20%. He will always have some issues with spacing, grammar and spelling, but I believe the biggest factor impacting on his increased score was the marker was able to read his writing.  
I would give him credit where it’s due - that he has significantly improved in his learning.

If a marker is unable to read handwriting they need to refer it on. First you ask in your team and then if needed use the formal referral process for it to be looked at by more senior markers. Every effort is made to decipher the handwriting and many markers are extremely skilled at it.

As I said, I would give your son credit for significantly improving his writing skill and ability beyond that of merely neater handwriting.

#205 Expelliarmus

Posted 25 September 2019 - 05:19 PM

View PostJoanJett, on 25 September 2019 - 04:50 PM, said:



Why do you postulate that the teaching is the problem in the equation, and not the design of the test?  

https://www.nswtf.or...new_digital.pdf

"In sum, the NAPLAN writing essay, both its overall structure and marking scheme, is paradoxically both overly complex in its marking but simplistic and highly reductive in measuring of any reasonable formulation of the writing construct. Teaching to this test will make students poor writers by having them focus on non-essential tasks such as memorising spelling lists. NAPLAN’s influence in the classroom could even negatively affect Australia’s standing in international test scores."
I’m not advocating ‘teaching to the test’. I’m saying that the writing rubric can and does find and assign a score to increasingly sophisticated texts. But my experience as a teacher and about what teachers are teaching is that many do not know how to teach many aspects of the English curriculum such as sentence structure and grammar. So they don’t teach it and students don’t do it and as a result texts they write are not as sophisticated.

I disagree that one needs to write to the rubric formulaically to score high, or to memorise spelling lists.

#206 Expelliarmus

Posted 25 September 2019 - 05:23 PM

The text at the link is long but I have noted in the first page a few erroneous assumptions so it needs quite a critical eye I think.

#207 JoanJett

Posted 25 September 2019 - 06:42 PM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 25 September 2019 - 05:19 PM, said:

I’m not advocating ‘teaching to the test’. I’m saying that the writing rubric can and does find and assign a score to increasingly sophisticated texts. But my experience as a teacher and about what teachers are teaching is that many do not know how to teach many aspects of the English curriculum such as sentence structure and grammar. So they don’t teach it and students don’t do it and as a result texts they write are not as sophisticated.

I disagree that one needs to write to the rubric formulaically to score high, or to memorise spelling lists.

I wasn't suggesting you were promoting teaching to the test.  

I was questioning your conclusion that discordant results between Naplan writing assessments and school based/other competition based writing assessments are due to a failure of teachers' ability to teach (and therefore mark) technical aspects of writing.  

I'm questioning the validity of the marking structure or "rubric" of the writing task for Naplan, and providing well researched high level evidence to support it, which includes comparison to multiple English-language based standardised writing tests around the world. Perelman is a well established and respected academic in the field of teaching writing and composition, and in the evaluation of marking structures for writing assessments, including those formerly used for college admission in USA.  It is worth noting that this report was commissioned by the NSW Teachers' Federation.

Some of the most celebrated and truly sophisticated writing in contemporary English literature is the simplest.  If you truly believe that the Naplan "rubric" is a wholly authentic means of determining good writing, I think you'd find that Hemingway and Orwell would be on the discard pile.

No test will be perfect, particularly when examining a discipline that is inherently subjective.  I think if you read the whole paper, you will see whilst you don't have to write formulaically to score highly, it is of clear benefit to do so and, ergo, it is of benefit to teach to the test for the primary stakeholders.  Having seen my children taught the "formula" at a previous school, I believe  it neglects the most important component of exceptional writing - that is, the author's authentic voice.

Edited by JoanJett, 25 September 2019 - 06:44 PM.


#208 Expelliarmus

Posted 25 September 2019 - 08:21 PM

View PostJoanJett, on 25 September 2019 - 06:42 PM, said:

I was questioning your conclusion that discordant results between Naplan writing assessments and school based/other competition based writing assessments are due to a failure of teachers' ability to teach (and therefore mark) technical aspects of writing.  
I have seen an element of this in my work, so yes, that happens.

There are limits to the naplan test. Its purpose is to measure the attainment of basic skills and student growth, not to find exceptional writing.

I see many teachers who struggle to teach 'how to write' and thus students lack basic skills. The rubric looks for the basic skills. If they are lacking on a large scale one must look at whether or not teachers are teaching basic skills.

#209 Expelliarmus

Posted 25 September 2019 - 08:33 PM

View PostLiveLife, on 23 September 2019 - 03:16 PM, said:

Haven’t heard how her friend went yet who wrote an entire narrative based on how stupid naplan is. I believe her friend wrote an opening sentence with ten big words in it followed by sentence letting the marker know to relax and stop counting and just enjoy the ride knowing in one sentence she had nailed several sections of the marking rubric for her.
Two sentences would not have 'nailed' any section that requires a sustained piece of writing, indeed any section. Ten 'big words' aren't enough to get 6 (the highest) in the spelling criteria although it might get a 5 if they are classified difficult words.

The maximum a two sentence text with 10 difficult to spell words could get is 18/48. I don't know exactly which band that is but it'snot going to meet any minimum standard beyond Year 3.

#210 LiveLife

Posted 25 September 2019 - 08:54 PM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 25 September 2019 - 08:33 PM, said:


Two sentences would not have 'nailed' any section that requires a sustained piece of writing, indeed any section. Ten 'big words' aren't enough to get 6 (the highest) in the spelling criteria although it might get a 5 if they are classified difficult words.

The maximum a two sentence text with 10 difficult to spell words could get is 18/48. I don't know exactly which band that is but it'snot going to meet any minimum standard beyond Year 3.

She got band 10. I never said it only had 2 sentences. English teacher praised every word of it. The description of what she wrote is above.

Edited by LiveLife, 25 September 2019 - 08:57 PM.


#211 Expelliarmus

Posted 25 September 2019 - 09:20 PM

View PostLiveLife, on 25 September 2019 - 08:54 PM, said:

She got band 10. I never said it only had 2 sentences. English teacher praised every word of it. The description of what she wrote is above.
The description you initially gave indicated only 2 sentences. Fair enough if she went on to address the prompt in a sophisticated manner. This was not something explicit in the original description.

Well done to her :)

#212 JoanJett

Posted 25 September 2019 - 09:46 PM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 25 September 2019 - 08:21 PM, said:



I see many teachers who struggle to teach 'how to write' and thus students lack basic skills. The rubric looks for the basic skills. If they are lacking on a large scale one must look at whether or not teachers are teaching basic skills.

So essentially, you are saying that on a wholesale level, accredited teachers are not able to meet their job description, which is to teach the national curriculum for writing?

If the intent of the test is, in your estimation, to detect basic skills, then only "minimum standard achieved" should be reported.  If reporting goes further to rank and classify according to multiple band levels, the test should be robust and verifiable.  It's the basic tenet of designing a "trial".  

But again, what are the "basic" skills?  If the primary determinant of the test is writing to a purpose ie narrative vs persuasive, the content should be as important, if not more important, than the technical aspects, as the conveyance of ideas is the primary purpose.  If "technical" writing is the focus of assessment, the design of both the task and assessment criteria should be different. If the purpose is both, then there should be equal weighting for the various domains.

That is the whole point of the referenced report - one of the greatest failures of the Naplan writing task is the complete absence of declared evidence to substantiate the methods of assessment.

If it was a biomedical trial, it wouldn't pass ethics.

#213 Prancer is coming

Posted 25 September 2019 - 09:56 PM

My grade 7 kid finally got her results back.  The school gave it to her in an envelope addressed to me which she opened, I would have much preferred her not to have laid her eyes on it!  She is a perfectionist and not impressed that she was not in the top 20% for two subjects.

It is a bit odd.  Her computer glitched in writing and whilst she did not lose enough time to get make up time, it really threw her.  She knew she did not do great.  She got band 6 for writing in grade 3 and is still in this band for grade 7!  So minimal progress over 4 years!  With maths, her best subject, she got logged out and had to wait for the next session with a different class to log back in again.  Her score this year was worse than grade 5!  And then with reading she was in the triangle in grade 3, well under the top 20% in grade 5 and now has a nice solid result well within the top 20%.  My guess would be the grade 5 test was an anomaly rather than her making no progress between grade 3 and 5 and then having massive progress between 5 and 7, but who knows!  At least pointing out all these things helped her see the test is not the be all and end all.

And I am still pretty positive my son with a learning disability only improved with his writing because it was typed.  His letter formations and spacing are such that it often looks like he spells words wrong but actually hasn’t.  His punctuation is often not great, but he is more likely to do full stops and capital letters on the computer.  He would also be able to type quicker than the time it takes him to hand write.

#214 Expelliarmus

Posted 25 September 2019 - 09:57 PM

I don't have time to read the referenced report of 52 pages. I'm not sure I will agree 100% with the author despite his professed stature. Nor do I have time to try and establish exactly what you are saying. My intent here was only to answer based on my understandings and training. You'd need to talk to ACER on these points. What you want to debate is beyond my expertise and experiences.

When used for what it was designed - to inform teaching and learning it generally works to allow schools to direct future teaching and learning goals. It's not a biomedical trial or anything similar.

#215 Tinkle Splashes

Posted 26 September 2019 - 12:00 AM

We received our Queensland Naplan report this week. Is it normal for Queensland to not have a school average included in the report?

#216 too tired to care

Posted 26 September 2019 - 06:50 AM

View PostGumbette, on 25 September 2019 - 04:00 PM, said:

I make her practice constantly.  Worksheets - you have no idea.  At 11 her handwriting is worse than most her friends were at 8.  I'm not exaggerating - I still have her birthday cards from that time.  She was the last in her class to receive her pen licence.  I'm at my wits end.  Even her number formation is terrible.  Ironic as I was an absolute dunce at school but boy did I have awesome penmanship!

Hi Gumbette,
just wondering if you have seen an OT for handwriting? from what you have said above it sounds very much like she may be hyper mobile and have low muscle tone in her hands. An OT can give exercises to strengthen the hand and special grips to help with holding pen and writing better. Practising writing on worksheets will only reinforce bad grip and writing if you don't have the other supports in place to strengthen the correct muscles.

#217 JoanJett

Posted 26 September 2019 - 09:02 AM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 25 September 2019 - 09:57 PM, said:

I don't have time to read the referenced report of 52 pages. I'm not sure I will agree 100% with the author despite his professed stature. Nor do I have time to try and establish exactly what you are saying. My intent here was only to answer based on my understandings and training. You'd need to talk to ACER on these points. What you want to debate is beyond my expertise and experiences.

When used for what it was designed - to inform teaching and learning it generally works to allow schools to direct future teaching and learning goals. It's not a biomedical trial or anything similar.

It was a pretty simple point - when other posters questioned the different format (online for writing this year) and the structure of the marking of the test compared to other assessments as the culprits for inconsistent marks their children received, your response was to say that it is a more thorough test, and a universally lower outcome was the result of poor teaching.  

In any field of testing/trial, if you have one piece of data that sits as an outlier compared to other data with the same controls (in this case students), the first thing you would examine as the inconsistent variable is the test or the conditions of the test.

I would have thought that if you are a teacher in the field and mark for Naplan writing, you would have critically examined the test structure and the research supporting it or criticising it.  You don't have to agree with the entire report - the issue is critical thought and questioning.

I'll leave it there.

#218 Expelliarmus

Posted 26 September 2019 - 09:39 AM

I agree that a piece of data that sits as an outlier needs investigating. When I have needed to do so, NAPLaN generally holds up and the errors are elsewhere.

In SA students are assessed with another writing tool as well. They generally match NAPLaN when moderated and done properly.

I have given this topic a lot of critical thought and questioning and done a lot of writing PD. I am allowed to disagree.

Edited by Expelliarmus, 26 September 2019 - 10:02 AM.


#219 Gumbette

Posted 26 September 2019 - 09:39 AM

View Posttoo tired to care, on 26 September 2019 - 06:50 AM, said:

Hi Gumbette,
just wondering if you have seen an OT for handwriting? from what you have said above it sounds very much like she may be hyper mobile and have low muscle tone in her hands. An OT can give exercises to strengthen the hand and special grips to help with holding pen and writing better. Practising writing on worksheets will only reinforce bad grip and writing if you don't have the other supports in place to strengthen the correct muscles.

Gosh yes, but thank you.  Her teacher recommended it pretty much in her first month at kindergarten.  We only stopped in Y3.  Her grip is perfect which is why I've sort thrown my hands up now.




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