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Leaving Neverland - trigger


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#1 WaitForMe

Posted 26 January 2019 - 08:24 PM

A few articles have come out about the Michael Jackson documentary regarding his abuse that has screened at Sundance.

Quite disturbing.

https://people.com/m...bed-disturbing/

And this one, which as a warning goes into some of the details:

https://www.bostonhe...al-abuse-doc-2/

#2 Chic'N'Stu

Posted 26 January 2019 - 09:08 PM

Jackson was clearly incredibly disturbed, and his warped existence kept him from any kind of help, perspective or consequence. Horrifying, but I kinda understand how it came to be.

This guy was throwing red flags like a communist parade and the parents of his victims... I've tried empathy but just can't fathom offering my child up to endure what these kids did. Whatever their motivation or personal vulnerability, I just can't believe these parents had no idea, so clearly there's some major damage there too.

What I do not understand is the number of detached 'fixers' that Jackson would have needed to escape any consequence for his crimes. I understand and respect the need for a legal defence as a key part of our justice system, but there had to be so much sleazy complicity that made it necessary in the first place - how tf do these people sleep at night?

#3 Oriental lily

Posted 26 January 2019 - 09:38 PM

It’s interesting how Michael Jackson and Jimmy Saville were treated very differently post death . Jimmy lost his respect very quickly post death as the stories came out , now is name is said with utter disgust .

With Michael no matter how many victims come forward ( plus the many who would have been payed of to keep silent ). He is still treated like a legend . Mud will not stick .

Is it because in America the practice if litigation is so staggering ? So every victim of someone with fame and fortune MUST be coming forward for the money ?

It seems fans of Michael Jackson and also Bill Cosby can justify it by them dismissing the claims as ‘greed for money’.

Reading what is coming out from the people who watched the doco none seems to doubt the testimony of these two particular victims . Most are simply horrified but MJ fans are hitting back saying it is just a smear campaign.

If MJ still had this power for loyalty even in death . It’s not surprising his ‘crew’ would have helped hide the evidence back then .

#4 ~J_F~

Posted 26 January 2019 - 09:46 PM

I think with MJ it’s hard for many because he did produce bloody fantastic music that probably touched many people’s lives.

But what he did was despicable, it truly is.

It’s hard when you like his music but hate the man he was.

ETA please don’t slam me. I don’t think I articulated what I was thinking well. It made more sense in my head.

Edited by ~J_F~, 26 January 2019 - 09:54 PM.


#5 Riotproof

Posted 26 January 2019 - 10:01 PM

I think you’re probably right.

Music is harder to take out of people’s consciousness.

I saw three primary school kids (maybe year 5-6) playing music as a trio in a public place recently, not a concert, just busking. One of their few songs was Thriller.

Can we separate art from the artist?

#6 CallMeFeral

Posted 26 January 2019 - 10:07 PM

View PostOriental lily, on 26 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

It’s interesting how Michael Jackson and Jimmy Saville were treated very differently post death . Jimmy lost his respect very quickly post death as the stories came out , now is name is said with utter disgust .

With Michael no matter how many victims come forward ( plus the many who would have been payed of to keep silent ). He is still treated like a legend . Mud will not stick .

Is it because in America the practice if litigation is so staggering ? So every victim of someone with fame and fortune MUST be coming forward for the money ?

I think it's a few things. As you say in America there is a significant potential financial payoff for this sort of thing, I don't know if that exists in the UK. And in the UK there was a proper independent investigation that brought everything to light, and many of the victims were poor, disabled, or vulnerable in some way so it was particularly horrendous to read. And I guess for those who didn't grow up with Jimmy Saville, he seemed such a sleazy old man it didn't seem hard to believe.
Whereas MJ always seemed childlike and a bit socially unaware. He came off as one of those people who might do socially inappropriate things by accident rather than malicious intent. Plus in my case I hadn't heard such specificity as in the links above, so I always somehow had the impression he had just been inappropriate around children rather than the full gamut which now appears very clear after reading the above.
I think there's also something in that we remember him as a child. It's hard to put together that wholesome young boy, and the knowledge that he was abused, and the sympathy that creates to then see him as the perpetrator. Then add on top of that the fact that for many of us his music was the soundtrack to our childhood. It's such a different package of baggage.

Not that any of that makes it ok but I think it's the source of the different treatment.

In a weird way, having read the above links and understanding now that he was a full sexual abuser, I'm kind of glad he's dead. It means if I choose to listen to any of his music still, it won't be profiting him in any way.

#7 Oriental lily

Posted 26 January 2019 - 10:27 PM

In the majority of cases I don’t think the Artist can not be separated from the Art .

Would a ‘Hey Dad’ episode ever be shown again ?
The Cosby show ?
Rolf Harris has pretty much every piece of his work taken from display

A whole movie was re shot when the Kevin Spacey allegations come out .

Some people were uncomfortable watching the new storm boy movie due to the Geoffrey Rush allegations .

But MJ?

Teflon .

Kids might be playing his music because the 30+ generation is ignoring the allegations and still wanting it on the radio , in music collections ect ect .

Hey I loved his music since his Thriller came out , the Making of the thriller video clip was the first ever VCR tape I saw, when I was 8 ! My uncle hired it .....

So yep heals of fond memories attached to the music and the ‘Peter Pan’ persona he put on .

But I think it needs to stop . I really don’t want to hear his music ever again .

#8 HolierThanCow

Posted 26 January 2019 - 10:40 PM

I know this will come out badly and sound like I am making light of a serious topic, but I have honestly had more trouble getting 'Six white boomers' and 'Tie me kangaroo down, sport' out of my repertoire than any Michael Jackson song. Except for 'Billie Jean'. That hurts. A lot.

#9 nup

Posted 27 January 2019 - 01:33 AM

He invented music videos. He had such a radical impact on culture that it's hard to imagine wiping him from the zeitgeist. He helped shape us as much as we shaped him.

But he did what he did. This is what grooming is.

Losing faith in humanity is death by a thousand cuts. Look for the good. It isn't in his direction.

I have been reading in search of answers to bigger questions related to this. I have found this which is rich in meaning for me. An atheist who appreciates my Judeo-Christian cultural context.

https://www.theology...arth-matthew-55

#10 born.a.girl

Posted 27 January 2019 - 05:53 AM

View Post~J_F~, on 26 January 2019 - 09:46 PM, said:

I think with MJ it’s hard for many because he did produce bloody fantastic music that probably touched many people’s lives.

But what he did was despicable, it truly is.

It’s hard when you like his music but hate the man he was.

ETA please don’t slam me. I don’t think I articulated what I was thinking well. It made more sense in my head.


I think you made perfect sense.

#11 Octopodes

Posted 27 January 2019 - 06:13 AM

Art is such a personal, emotional experience. It is hard to separate the body of work from the artist themselves, that is why fans so vehemently defend their idols against claims of wrongdoing. It doesn't make the defence of the artist right, but it does make it somewhat understandable.

I would really struggle to let go of the love of my favourite band if the lead singer turned out to be a sex offender. His music has seen me through some of the best and hardest times of my life. The conflicting feelings of loving the art made by a sex offender/child rapist but hating the actions of the artist would be very difficult to reconcile.

#12 LDG

Posted 27 January 2019 - 06:34 AM

My memory may be a bit off but I recall his court trial in the US becoming something of a race issue also.  There were the fans who just couldn't believe he could do anything so horrendous.  But many who protested outside the court house because believed there was a racial basis for him being prosecuted.  Similar to the OJ Simpson trial.  In the same way it took on a whole other meaning which clouded how it was viewed in the US.

I find it hard to know what to do now.  Through school friends my son has become an MJ fan.  I've always believed the accusations made against him and am completely disgusted by it.  But a 7 year old has little comprehension or ability to understand just how horrible this all is.  They just like the music.  I'm hoping it passes like many previous interests but if not there will be a difficult conversation ahead branching from his understanding of protective behaviours.

#13 Lunafreya

Posted 27 January 2019 - 06:44 AM

I grew up with Michael Jackson, I’d like to say it’s possible to seperate him from his music but I’m not sure it is. Also the fact he came across as a nice, caring charming guy all the time is kinda confusing with what we know. I guess it’s eaaier to hate Rolf Harris and Jimmy Saville as they look like dirty old men.

There’s one thing we’re forgetting though: his own kids, from what I have seen of them they loved their dad and this must be terrible for them to hear. He’s still their dad despite all of this, so I hope they can come to terms with it.

This does explain though a lot about why the kids were conceived and born the way they were.

#14 PhillipaCrawford

Posted 27 January 2019 - 07:30 AM

Rolf Harris was a huge part of my childhood.

I grew up watching his TV shows, marvelling at his painting and have vivid memories of sitting with brothers and neighbours with our 6 white boomers record on endless repeat.
As a teacher I delighted when when it was released in book form and I could share it with the kids.
So many songs 'Two little boys' in particular.

It probably wasn't 'quality' in terms of MJ music,  but it was just as big for many as MJ was for people born 20 years later. Perhaps more so because of the pride that Rolf was an Australian making it big overseas in a time when that didn't happen.

I don't believe that you can continue to support the art and not the artist. The enabling of the abuse he committed was appalling and in continuing to support MJ I think there is support of that whole system which condones such behaviour.
That anything is acceptable as long as the commodity keeps making money for us.
MJ was a more obvious victim of that perhaps but the system was still the same. Whether it was Rolf's groping being tolerated, Cosby's lecherousness, or football players antics.
It's the same mentality of keep the star happy because it keeps us rich and damn the consequences- to the star or others around them

#15 fruitfairy

Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:00 AM

From a personal view point, growing up in an abusive home, I can see why people don't/don't want to believe the victims.

*triggers galore**

I am 45 and I still have shame.  People don't believe you when you tell them what happened.  Your motives are questioned, why are you still bringning this up. I was sexually groped on a regular basis by my father and I was often hit and several times beaten. I spent my entire childhood in fear.  Now my father has died a lot of trauma has come to the surface and I am supposed to be over it. I get no sympathy from family only one sibling who witnesses most of it.  My eldest siblings think it's funny. By the time you get to your 40s you are meant to have moved on. It has now emerged he sexually abused my nephew as a child, but yeah Dad was a "great great man" (sarcasm font). It is so normalised I want to scream.

I hate talking about it. I automatically expect people won't believe me or think I am exagerating what happened.  My Dad seemed normal, he seemed like a nice guy. Pillor of the community. Not like the abusers you see on TV or the news. He's remembered as a "great man" and you don't bad mouth the dead when they aren't here to "defend themselves".

Honestly I have heard every counter argument.  People don't want to hear it.  "If it was that bad why didn't you do something about it at the time".  I think once the accusations are towards the deceased and they "can't defend themselves" it's somewhat worse. You are seen as a troublemaker and obviously up to no good, I mean who does that to a poor defenceless dead person.

We have some very very screwed up ideas in society. And it starts with not believing victims of abuse. Believing the child should be the default position, even when that child is telling you 20-30 years after it happened.

#16 Romeo Void

Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:18 AM

View PostStellarSurvivor, on 27 January 2019 - 09:00 AM, said:


but yeah Dad was a "great great man" (sarcasm font). It is so normalised I want to scream.
I had a similar experience Stellar Survivor.  My best friends dad (next door).  I used to wish he was my dad as he was so involved with the kids..taking us swimming etc.... Father of the year.....till I got to about 12 and he started touching me.  I also wasn't believed when it came out.

#17 kadoodle

Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:28 AM

Same again, Stellar. Bloke was a friend’s dad, and “kids lie”.

#18 fruitfairy

Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:28 AM

View PostRomeo Void, on 27 January 2019 - 09:18 AM, said:

I had a similar experience Stellar Survivor.  My best friends dad (next door).  I used to wish he was my dad as he was so involved with the kids..taking us swimming etc.... Father of the year.....till I got to about 12 and he started touching me.  I also wasn't believed when it came out.

I am so so sorry.  I know my Dad did inappropriate stuff to my friends. Everyone used to say he was just like Dr Cosby on the Cosby show - the irony of that now.That same jokey persona, but would make my friends so uncomfortable. If I fought back I'd be in the wrong and get abused and humiliated in front of my friends. It really really messes with your head.

My mother was his worst enabler.

#19 Lunafreya

Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:52 AM

Its much easier to not believe a victim, if you don’t believe a victim you don’t have to admit you’re wrong and change something about yourself.

#20 unicycle

Posted 27 January 2019 - 10:33 AM

I cannot read Mem Fox books anymore and feel sick to my stomach when I see them on display in the library. By supporting her husband, who is convicted ( and we all know how hard it is to secure a conviction) she reminds me of every single enabler out there.

I know how hard it is to believe at first when this comes out - been there on more than one occasion- but there comes a time when we need to stand up and she refuses to do this, yet we still read her book to our kids.

#21 Chocolate Addict

Posted 27 January 2019 - 10:58 AM

I have a question...
The Australian guy in this movie, 'just' years ago(10?) stated in court that nothing sexual happened at all, ever. Jackson was alive and defended the accusations.
Now he is dead the guy has come out with all the details, why?

I am not saying it didn't happen, in fact, I believe it did. Jackson was always a bit strange. However, why was he denying it as an adult, when he had a chance to tell the world? Is it because there would have been a huge backlash, like there is now? Was he paid off last time?

Having not been in that sort of situation, I don't understand, so I apologise if my question sounds naive or comes across badly.

Part of me wants to watch this docu, but I am not sure if I will.

#22 Octopodes

Posted 27 January 2019 - 11:08 AM

This article explains a little about the reasoning behind staying quiet up until now. It's toward the end. https://www.theguard...aving-neverland

#23 Starlia

Posted 27 January 2019 - 11:15 AM

View PostChocolate Addict, on 27 January 2019 - 10:58 AM, said:

I have a question...
The Australian guy in this movie, 'just' years ago(10?) stated in court that nothing sexual happened at all, ever. Jackson was alive and defended the accusations.
Now he is dead the guy has come out with all the details, why?

I am not saying it didn't happen, in fact, I believe it did. Jackson was always a bit strange. However, why was he denying it as an adult, when he had a chance to tell the world? Is it because there would have been a huge backlash, like there is now? Was he paid off last time?

Having not been in that sort of situation, I don't understand, so I apologise if my question sounds naive or comes across badly.

Part of me wants to watch this docu, but I am not sure if I will.

I'm sure he has said in interviews that he was afraid he wouldn't be believed. It would take an enormous amount of courage to speak up against the most famous entertainer in the world.
I can totally understand why he would stay quiet. Look at the backlash even now. As a victim, Robson would have been victimised even further by MJ's adoring fans.

#24 Oriental lily

Posted 27 January 2019 - 11:30 AM

The abuser and victim relationship is never straightforward . At the time when they upported MJ innocence they very much were still under influence . That influence can consist of fear, confusion,love and loyalty and massive guilt if they betray him . I find it totally understandable they found the courage after his death ,also understandable why they willingly lied under outh in his defense.  There motives as victims should not be on trial .

#25 nup

Posted 27 January 2019 - 12:01 PM

Absolutely. FOG creates confusion and distorts reality to a degree but doesn't change it. Fear Obligation Guilt




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