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Religious hate speech


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#26 red_squirrel

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:01 PM

How can people who claim God is “made up sky fairy” and there is no Heaven and Hell be offended by being told they are going to Hell?

You either believe or you don’t. You can’t get offended by something that you believe isn’t real.

Perhaps you believe more that you actually realise.

And yes, he should have kept his opinions to himself.

#27 Just Jack

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:04 PM

View Post~J_F~, on 18 April 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Oh there has been mention of it on EB, it was to show us that skin colour and religion are both fundamental parts of a person and cannot be changed.


Can i ask which thread this was in?

#28 Bam1

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:05 PM

View PostLucrezia Borgia, on 18 April 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

Interestingly - dh and I were discussing it last night and he (DH) reckoned he wouldn't have got away with it if he was a rugby league player - he reckoned they would have terminated his contract (reputation clause - bringing the sport/team into disrepute) - I don't know if that's fair to say or not. From where I'm sitting I can't see League being more tolerant than union, but anyway.

Religion gets a free pass on a lot of things.

The head of the NRL Todd Greenburg(?) said he wouldnt have got away with it in league.  Which considering the anount of DV the NRL turn a blind eye to and have also revently  let Matthew Lodge (NY rampage) back, I thought was very sanctimonious

#29 marple

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:09 PM

The Matthew Lodge thing is a disgrace.I don't understand how he got bail and was allowed to leave the US.
The NRL has just pretended nothing happened. Appalling.

#30 Just Jack

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:10 PM

View PostRowenas Necklace, on 18 April 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

I think Israel Folau is absolutely disgusting and should absolutely be booted from the game.

I'm in two minds about this. What he said was awful, and something should be done by Rugby Australia, but booting him out of the game would just martyr him, and he'd become a rallying point for the religious right.

I don't know the answer... but I'm reluctant to create a martyr.

#31 purplekitty

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:12 PM

View Postred_squirrel, on 18 April 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

How can people who claim God is “made up sky fairy” and there is no Heaven and Hell be offended by being told they are going to Hell?

You either believe or you don’t. You can’t get offended by something that you believe isn’t real.

Perhaps you believe more that you actually realise.

And yes, he should have kept his opinions to himself.
I didn't know being gay and having religious beliefs were mutually exclusive.

#32 Lunafreya

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:25 PM

View Postred_squirrel, on 18 April 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

How can people who claim God is “made up sky fairy” and there is no Heaven and Hell be offended by being told they are going to Hell?

You either believe or you don’t. You can’t get offended by something that you believe isn’t real.

Perhaps you believe more that you actually realise.

And yes, he should have kept his opinions to himself.

It’s called being rude and bigoted?

#33 red_squirrel

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:28 PM

View Postpurplekitty, on 18 April 2018 - 12:12 PM, said:


I didn't know being gay and having religious beliefs were mutually exclusive.

They are obviously not.

From previous threads on here there are many that openly mock Christians for their “made up sky fairy” . They claim to be non-believers.

If you’re instant gut reaction to his twitter statement is revolt/disgust/offence etc, that is a reaction from the core of your being. You believe in Hell and all that goes with it, at least at a core level.

If you truly didn’t believe, you’re reaction would be more along the lines of “what, so I’m going to a place that doesn’t exist, good one”

I’m just trying to point out many of you are believers when it comes down to it when you have previously said otherwise. Your gut reaction is to believe.


#34 ~J_F~

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:37 PM

What? Saying someone isn’t allowed to use their religion to make derogatory comments about others means you are a closet believer?

Is that really your argument :lol:

#35 Lunafreya

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:44 PM

View Postred_squirrel, on 18 April 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:



They are obviously not.

From previous threads on here there are many that openly mock Christians for their “made up sky fairy” . They claim to be non-believers.

If you’re instant gut reaction to his twitter statement is revolt/disgust/offence etc, that is a reaction from the core of your being. You believe in Hell and all that goes with it, at least at a core level.

If you truly didn’t believe, you’re reaction would be more along the lines of “what, so I’m going to a place that doesn’t exist, good one”

I’m just trying to point out many of you are believers when it comes down to it when you have previously said otherwise. Your gut reaction is to believe.

It’s blatant hyprocracy in this day and age to use your religious beliefs to spout hatred and bigotry. Just because you have some doctrine telling you it’s okay to say it in public, doesn’t mean it’s okay.

Imagine if I had a religion that hated white poeple and that it was okay to kill them. Would that make me any less a bigot even though its my religion?

#36 RichardParker

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:47 PM

As much as I disagree with his statement, and I don't think he should be making public posts like that, I don't think it's hate speech.

If you don't believe in God or hell, then he's just made a nonsense statement of no relevance to you.  It's irritating, and not nice, but it's not hate speech because it's fanciful.

If you do believe in God and hell, (but you disagree that God would send gay people to hell), then you just differ on a point of theology.  Again, it's not nice and is hurtful, but it's not hate speech, you just think it's factually incorrect.

The trouble with calling it hate speech is that different Christians think many people are going to hell for many different things.  Some people would think I'm going to hell for having a baby out of wedlock, or taking communion in another Church.  Some think I'm an idiot for believing in God.  I've had it said to me.  It's not nice.  I hurts.  It's made me really depressed in the past.  But it's their religious/theological/atheist opinion, and they're entitled to have it and express it respectfully.

#37 Lunafreya

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:50 PM

Just because it’s religious, does not make it not hate speech. That means you can make religion to make anything you say okay.

And that’s not acceptable at all.

Yes, he has the right to say it. That’s free speech. And I can exercise mine by calling him a bigot.

Edited by Lunafreya, 18 April 2018 - 12:51 PM.


#38 Feraldasherie

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:50 PM

View Post~J_F~, on 18 April 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

What? Saying someone isn’t allowed to use their religion to make derogatory comments about others means you are a closet believer?

Is that really your argument Posted Image


Only derogatory truth is offensive apparently, derogatory lies and nonsense are fine and dandy.

So if someone said RS was really a stupid hate-filled sub-human bigot, it would only upset him/her if it was true.

#39 mum2345

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:51 PM

View PostLunafreya, on 18 April 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

It’s blatant hyprocracy in this day and age to use your religious beliefs to spout hatred and bigotry. Just because you have some doctrine telling you it’s okay to say it in public, doesn’t mean it’s okay.

Imagine if I had a religion that hated white poeple and that it was okay to kill them. Would that make me any less a bigot even though its my religion?

Again I'm not sure if we're discussing the social acceptability of Folau's comments, or the legal ramifications of them.

Regarding the legal ramifications - killing people in Australia is illegal.
However I don't think a social media post saying that a group of people will go to hell is illegal. Happy to be corrected on the last point by someone with better legal knowledge than me.

#40 Lunafreya

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:52 PM

View Postmum2345, on 18 April 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:



Again I'm not sure if we're discussing the social acceptability of Folau's comments, or the legal ramifications of them.

Regarding the legal ramifications - killing people in Australia is illegal.
However I don't think a social media post saying that a group of people will go to hell is illegal. Happy to be corrected on the last point by someone with better legal knowledge than me.

There are religions that say it is perfectly acceptable to kill people of other races and religions. Even in Australia.

#41 JRA

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:56 PM

I still want to know where the other thread is.

#42 mum2345

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:57 PM

View PostLunafreya, on 18 April 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

There are religions that say it is perfectly acceptable to kill people of other races and religions. Even in Australia.

OK - but I'm not sure how that directly relates to one rugby player's claim that gay people will go to hell

#43 Mollycoddle

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:58 PM

View Postred_squirrel, on 18 April 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

If you’re instant gut reaction to his twitter statement is revolt/disgust/offence etc, that is a reaction from the core of your being. You believe in Hell and all that goes with it, at least at a core level.

If you truly didn’t believe, you’re reaction would be more along the lines of “what, so I’m going to a place that doesn’t exist, good one”


What on earth are you on about? You don't get it.  The outrage isn't about the idea of whether or not anyone is going to hell.  It's about the fact that once again we see representatives of the religious right thinking they have carte blanche to come out in mainstream media forums denigrating people who don't happen to believe in the same things they do.

Edited by Mollycoddle, 18 April 2018 - 01:00 PM.


#44 RichardParker

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:58 PM

View PostFeraldasherie, on 18 April 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

So if someone said RS was really a stupid hate-filled sub-human bigot, it would only upset him/her if it was true.
Or would at least have to have some basis in the real world.  You could call me fat, or stupid, or tell me I'm horrible and should be beaten.  Those are hate-filled, because they have some basis in reality.  Saying I'm going to hell, if hell doesn't exist, is meaningless.  You might as well say I'm going to a magic, burning flying teapot in the sky.  

And I think it doesn't upset them because they don't believe it's true.  The Christian Right get called hate-filled bigots all the time.  They don't care, because they believe what they're saying to be factually true.

I suppose it's because of religion's relationship to power, that it could be hateful.  But if religion holds no power over you, then the threat of hell is a nonsense.  Sure, it's bigotry, it's dumb, it's not even theologically defensible (I don't believe).  But isn't it just an expression of stupidity?

I don't doubt that it hurts a gay person to be told they're going to hell.  I don't think it should be done.  But don't we give religion more power by saying it's powerful hate speech?  Isn't it just the ravings of a lunatic who thinks a big man in the sky will punish us?

ETA - I'm not defending the original statement, or saying he shouldn't be criticised for making it- I just don't think it can be categorised as hate speech (the illegal kind) just because it's also derogatory.

Edited by RichardParker, 18 April 2018 - 01:04 PM.


#45 Lunafreya

Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:59 PM

It may just be me, but I think it’s rather rude, unpleasant and hateful to tell anyone they’re going to hell even if it’s “just what you believe” and they don’t believe in hell at all.

#46 RichardParker

Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:12 PM

It's not just you.  It is rude, unpleasant and probably hateful.  I just get worried when people say he shouldn't be "allowed" to say it, or categorise it as illegal hate speech, because then we start getting into the making subjectively derogatory statements in and of themselves being "hate speech", because then Atheists can't call religious people evil bigots.

To clarify - by all means, criticise him, sack him for not upholding the principles of the club, or whatever, but don't prosecute him under anti-discrimination legislation (I don't think that was proposed here, but it was elsewhere) for hate speech, because you'll just add fuel to Andrew Bolt at al's fire.

Edited by RichardParker, 18 April 2018 - 01:15 PM.


#47 Oriental lily

Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:19 PM

I think many people are missing the point .

It’s incredibly offensive of the many many gay christians out there to be told  one persons interpretation of Christianity means due to their  sexuality they are going to hell .

It’s incredibly hateful ,offensive and wrong .

If it’s illegal is totally seperate thing .

Right or wrong Rugby needs to decide if they want one of their players who is willing to sprout such hatred , should represent their game .

Wanted or not they are role models .

Also you don’t need to be a Christian or believe in heaven or hell to be offended on the behalf of the gay christians upset by this .

#48 Lunafreya

Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:29 PM

View PostRichardParker, on 18 April 2018 - 01:12 PM, said:

It's not just you.  It is rude, unpleasant and probably hateful.  I just get worried when people say he shouldn't be "allowed" to say it, or categorise it as illegal hate speech, because then we start getting into the making subjectively derogatory statements in and of themselves being "hate speech", because then Atheists can't call religious people evil bigots.

To clarify - by all means, criticise him, sack him for not upholding the principles of the club, or whatever, but don't prosecute him under anti-discrimination legislation (I don't think that was proposed here, but it was elsewhere) for hate speech, because you'll just add fuel to Andrew Bolt at al's fire.

Also, newspapers doesn’t have to print stuff like this if they don’t want to. I know it sells papers, gets clicks, but it also normalises it.

#49 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:29 PM

View Postred_squirrel, on 18 April 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

How can people who claim God is “made up sky fairy” and there is no Heaven and Hell be offended by being told they are going to Hell?

You either believe or you don’t. You can’t get offended by something that you believe isn’t real.

Perhaps you believe more that you actually realise.

And yes, he should have kept his opinions to himself.

It's an interesting point.

I think people maybe wouldn't be so quick to jump on him had he not invoked his Christian beliefs - which purports to stand for love, acceptance blah blah blah.

Of course - it doesn't. It's based on a book written by Neolithic peasants who (as he correctly pointed out) condemned homosexuals to hell - along with - IDK - shell fish eaters, and adulterers - and thought keeping slaves was cool. He's just quoting his holy book. It is a completely imagined reality. It's not real. and once society can accept that - once we can call out Christianity for its banality and utter irrelevance - without people getting "offended" and demanding respect, and reporting it to the mods - then maybe we will get to a - not good - but uneasy equilibrium.


#50 RichardParker

Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:33 PM

But he's entitled to his interpretation of Christianity, even if it's wrong, isn't he?  You're saying his interpretation is wrong, and you're entitled to that view.  You're entitled to express it, even if it hurts his feelings.  Especially because it hurts his feelings.  

Some people say Christians are wrong for being Christian at all.

Many Christians would say HE's the one going to hell for his religious beliefs.  Many other religious people would say he's going to hell for his religious beliefs.  That's derogatory too.   What if two sports leader/role models have a public debate about who's religion will send the other to hell - do they lose their job too?

ETA - sorry, that was a response to Oriental Lily's post.

Edited by RichardParker, 18 April 2018 - 01:34 PM.





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