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What is this doing in the ABC headline news?


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#1 HolyCow

Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:34 AM

This appeared in the ABC headline news today:

http://www.abc.net.a...in-life/8943838


As far as I can see, it is saying nothing other than what we already knew - that there is a possible link but no evidence of causation between Caesarean sections and autism, ADHD, an unproven possible link with asthma and now leaning delays... but without making any mention of possible confounding factors like fetal gestation, emergency or elective, sibling studies... etc. etc. etc.

And then suggesting gut flora as a possible cause without producing any evidence that this is the case.

It has p*ssed me off and got my day off to a bad start.

#2 ~J_F~

Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:37 AM

All the news outlets are jumping on it.

I have seen it a few times.

Just looks like another mummy shaming article, so I ignored it.

#3 BadCat

Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:53 AM

Yeah, I shrugged it off as just another thing I've done that probably ****ed up my kids.  I'll just add it to the list and get on with my life.

#4 Bethlehem Babe

Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:55 AM

But is it cause or effect?
Is there something happening with the baby that indicates a c-section is needed? Is a baby with asd/ADHD etc more likely to become distressed during labour?

#5 HolyCow

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:04 AM

With the autism and ADHD links, I believe, after the sibling studies, the (probable) conclusion was that there was a link but that it was most likely due to shared factors, i.e. that whatever caused the autism or ADHD was also what necessitated the caesarean section, rather than one directly causing the other. But they didn't know.

I'm not a medico so I may be using the wrong terminology.

From what I read, the asthma link was just a straight out observational study with no conclusions drawn at all (and it didn't show much anyway).

Any non-sensational reporting would have mentioned this, surely?

#6 CallMeFeral

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:07 AM

Gawd. ABC budget cuts at their finest.
They haven't even linked to the study.

#7 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:18 AM

There was a more in depth discussion of the study on breakfast radio, with one of the doctors involved surmising (theorising?) that it may all be linked to gut bacteria - with a c section delivery missing out on that or some of that (evidently the baby passing through the birth canal assists in this). He did point out that it is too soon to make any concrete conclusions, but just that - as with many things - the study may assist in informing choices and decisions women make with their health care professionals - is the c section called for? Should a real attempt be made to try for a natural birth?

(In interests  of disclosure both my kids were c section deliveies - one necessary, one maybe not so - and I was trying to listen to this while my youngest was being supremely loud and annoying - so that's all a bit disjointed. Is there a link between c sections and annoying behaviour I wonder....)


#8 itsallnew

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:26 AM

Meh. If I didn't have a c-section both my daughter & I would be dead. Bigger fish to fry!

#9 Paddlepop

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:37 AM

View PostBethlehem Babe, on 14 September 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

But is it cause or effect?
Is there something happening with the baby that indicates a c-section is needed?

A big head perhaps. People with ASD tend to have larger than average heads. My ASD and ADHD DD had a large head. 97th percentile for head circumference. and boy did my perineum know it. She was a forceps delivery because I had pre-eclampsia and my blood pressure started spiking badly. If they couldn't get her out within three contractions they were going to do a C section to preserve our health and lives.

FWIW my DH also has ASD and ADHD, and a large head, and he was a Ventouse delivery.

Damn big headed babies. If I'd had another baby it would have been a C section. No way was I putting my body through another vaginal delivery after the damage the first time.

#10 Feral Grey Mare

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:53 AM

Two c/s births here. First one would have died without it (non-opening cervix, loss of fetal heart beat and some other stuff). Second one would have killed me (11lb 12 oz with a boof head). They're  both annoying, one academic and the other not, both pretty well adjusted, both happily working in fields that interest them, no ASD or athsma or anything else medical. One has anxiety and the other causes anxiety. I'm not going to beat myself up over having the c/s deliveries.

#11 LuckyMummy ♥♥

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:53 AM

That article and others about the same research annoyed me too OP. C-sections are often linked to a whole range of issues with pregnancy and birth. Why blame the c-section itself? Could have been the really long labour, could have been distress in labour, could have been premature birth, anything! Those kids are probably lucky to be alive, who gives a toss if they are 30 days behind in their schooling. For goodness sake, a bit of perspective by the journalists would have been nice.

Such a pointless bit of research without further research into the reasons for the c-section.

Edited by LuckyMummy ♥♥, 14 September 2017 - 10:56 AM.


#12 ljbellus

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:53 AM

View Postitsallnew, on 14 September 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Meh. If I didn't have a c-section both my daughter & I would be dead. Bigger fish to fry!

If I didn't have a c-section my twins and I would be dead too.  FWIW my boys don't have any of the listed conditions that could be associated with c-sections suggested in the article.  Even if they did, that would be infinitely better that being dead.

#13 Tired & Nasty

Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:09 AM

So I have had 3 vaginal births, all 3 large heads, 1 has asthma, one with suspected mild ASD- currently being investigated and another likely given current markers.

It does seem that asthma has a genetic link most likely due to hay fever/ allergies according to my respiratory specialist, which fits with my family, my mum, brother and grandparents all had asthma that was hay fever/ allergy related and all were vaginal births.

ASD and ADHD also seems to have genetic link as  a number of 1st and 2 cousins of my kids also have been diagnosed with it and only 1 of those came from a caesarean, all the rest were vaginal births.

So it seems there is genetic issues with both mine and my DH family that has nothing to do with whether the children were born by caesarean.
The study and research would seem flawed when I have such contrary evidence in  my family and I am sure i am not alone.

So if you have had a caesarean please ignore this article and the supposed evidence.
Until they can actually provide the links and evidence that has been peer reviewed I would not pay any attention at all.

#14 nasty roses

Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:17 AM

It doesn't read to me like a mummy shaming article. Though, I understand people feeling defensive about it.

I thought it was pretty clear that it showed only correlation, not causation. And that it was too soon to draw any significant conclusions. But what's wrong with reporting a study if it can inform people's choices?

There's no suggestion people shouldn't have c-sections. Of course, you choose based on known risk over unknown risk when there's a reason to have a c-section. But if you could go either way, wouldn't you want to know of any possible risks before you choose?

Isn't it well-established that our rate of intervention in Australia is too high? We have a prominent OB in my regional city who tells women 'I can't understand why any woman would want to have a vaginal birth' and so many of his patients are booked for them, probably all necessarily.

I don't advocate shaming in any way, but I do advocate for informed choice. And I think we should be able to take studies like this, consider them and then weigh up if it has any relevance. I had two inductions, BTW. Both by choice and, if I'm honest, for mostly social reasons. If a study comes out that shows a link between induction and adverse outcomes, then I think I'd be able to take that on board without feeling that my choice was being judged. And then maybe the next person will feel a bit more informed than I was.

Edited by nasty roses, 14 September 2017 - 11:18 AM.


#15 HolyCow

Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:39 AM

View Postnasty roses, on 14 September 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

It doesn't read to me like a mummy shaming article. Though, I understand people feeling defensive about it.

I thought it was pretty clear that it showed only correlation, not causation. And that it was too soon to draw any significant conclusions. But what's wrong with reporting a study if it can inform people's choices?

There's no suggestion people shouldn't have c-sections. Of course, you choose based on known risk over unknown risk when there's a reason to have a c-section. But if you could go either way, wouldn't you want to know of any possible risks before you choose?

Isn't it well-established that our rate of intervention in Australia is too high? We have a prominent OB in my regional city who tells women 'I can't understand why any woman would want to have a vaginal birth' and so many of his patients are booked for them, probably all necessarily.

I don't advocate shaming in any way, but I do advocate for informed choice. And I think we should be able to take studies like this, consider them and then weigh up if it has any relevance. I had two inductions, BTW. Both by choice and, if I'm honest, for mostly social reasons. If a study comes out that shows a link between induction and adverse outcomes, then I think I'd be able to take that on board without feeling that my choice was being judged. And then maybe the next person will feel a bit more informed than I was.

My issue is that this feels like fear-mongering rather than a presentation of facts to assist informed choice. If they had actually linked the study (or any of the studies showing links between Caesarean sections and autism, ADHD or asthma) I would happily study and consider them and take the information on board. I'm p*ssed off at the sh*tty reporting. If I'm honest, I am also p*ssed off at the gut flora link suggestion... if this is about gut flora, that's an entirely different study because it would also involve at the very least women whose babies were born vaginally and given antibiotics during labour... wouldn't that also affect gut flora? I don't know, but it seems like that's very inconclusive.

I'm not feeling judged, BTW... just frustrated.

Edited by HolyCow, 14 September 2017 - 11:42 AM.


#16 bec578

Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:47 AM

The biggest concern from this article is the way they sell off the data from our kids NAPLAN results & use them!!!

Couldn't care less about the whole birth argument

#17 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:53 AM

I think it's often hard for non medical people to process these complicated studies - that goes for your average punter (like me) and for the journalists as well. They obviously picked up on the study and reported on it - with a view to - hopefully - alerting affected or potentially affected women. What we do with that information (such as it is) is - in most cases I suspect - mention it to our doctors, or OB's or midwives. "I read this study about c sections and I'm concerned..." and that's  where the expertise of your health care professional would kick in. They might tell you the study is flawed, or it's irrelevant to your particular situation, or they might agree it's relevant and discuss it further with you. I think it's just about informing people - a study has been done, if you're concerned, talk to your doctor - she'll have more reliable information on it than any abc journo.


#18 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:07 PM

Ice cream sales go up in summer. Sunburn rates increase in summer. Ice cream causes sunburn.

I will admit to rolling my eyes at these types of studies.

I am also ??? At how they can match the naplan data to birth data. As PP have said a cs is not just straight forward. A premmie eclampsia baby that is removed as a "scheduled cs" is not really an optional item and is just as likely to have confounding items too.

I read. Rolled my eyes and move on.

#19 Loungelizzard

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:08 PM

HolyCow, the reasearch paper is available in full from the Scientific Reports Journal online. It's called "The relation between Caesarian birth and child cognitive development".

#20 Soontobegran

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:11 PM

This mean zilch unless they differentiate between elective and emergency.
The gut flora stuff :shrug:  Fact is that many babies born vaginally do not spend too long in the vagina.....not long enough to be stocking up on flora and in fact some babies born to C/S, especially emergency ones when there has been a failure to progress are stuck in the vagina longer.

Just another grasping at grasping at straws research that will make no difference to the rate of C/S.
Waste of money.

Oh...the would 'could' is not really an indication there is any fact involved here.

Edited by Soontobegran, 14 September 2017 - 12:12 PM.


#21 HolyCow

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:14 PM

View PostLoungelizzard, on 14 September 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

HolyCow, the reasearch paper is available in full from the Scientific Reports Journal online. It's called "The relation between Caesarian birth and child cognitive development".

Ok, thanks. I'll read it, although starting off in the intro. with a statement about the WHO's recommendation regarding a 15% caesarean rate 'ceiling' (the WHO doesn't advocate having target caesarean rates) isn't making me any less p*ssed off so far.

Edited by HolyCow, 14 September 2017 - 12:20 PM.


#22 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:17 PM

STBG but elective just means it was booked in. Knowing it was going to happen. Elective may mean a too posh to push choice, or it could mean, you have PE we need to get the baby out ASAP... tomorrow at 10am.

I had 2 emergency and 1 elective. The difference was the 2 emergency did not stay out for the elective date. The elective was chosen for medical reasons. To not have had elective would have most likely resulted in death.

Edited by Veritas Vinum Arte, 14 September 2017 - 12:18 PM.


#23 purplekitty

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:24 PM

View PostLoungelizzard, on 14 September 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

HolyCow, the reasearch paper is available in full from the Scientific Reports Journal online. It's called "The relation between Caesarian birth and child cognitive development".

http://www.nature.co...598-017-10831-y

#24 MissHLH

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:28 PM

Media have picked up on a published paper, the research is not trying to shame anyone.  These studies are important because they might indicate a difference in the way we do things.  A baby born by c-section might then be swabbed with maternal vaginal secretions to influence their microbiota (this is currently being studied).  There are differences in microbiota for children born vaginally and via ceasearian, and studies like this might change practice.
Obviously it's correlation and the 'cause' for needing a c-section and the cause of any cognative defects might be linked, rather than the c-section itself being a cause.  It was a small study, doing more research isn't a waste of money if it means we can get better outcomes.  But it's not saying we shouldn't perform c-sections or that they're not essential to save lives in many cases.

#25 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 14 September 2017 - 12:30 PM

Also published papers these days leave me going ???

http://blogs.discove...g/#.WbnpadGuaf0

The Star Wars medical papers




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