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Sacred Space #23 05/05/15

252 replies to this topic

#1 lucky 2

Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:29 PM


Time for a new thread. :)
Link to the old thread- http://www.essential...pace-22-122015/

Kind regards,

lucky 2

#2 .leahcar

Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:52 PM

Anyone looking out for the antichrist?

#3 Ange remplie

Posted 05 May 2015 - 02:37 PM


In general, or today in particular?

#4 .leahcar

Posted 05 May 2015 - 02:55 PM

In general, I guess.

#5 Prioritising Pooks

Posted 05 May 2015 - 02:58 PM

Short answer is no.

Edited by Feral_Pooks, 05 May 2015 - 02:59 PM.

#6 Ange remplie

Posted 05 May 2015 - 02:59 PM

No, I'm really not.  It's never even occurred to me to do that.

But then, I guess I see a focus on the antichrist as something I associate with all that American fundamentalist rapture-end-times-Tim LaHaye-Left Behind stuff, which doesn't actually gel with my take on eschatology.

#7 .leahcar

Posted 05 May 2015 - 03:51 PM

I think the scriptures speak for itself and a lot of the signs seem to be in place. I find it dismaying that it seems to be a subject that people almost mock and don't want to talk about as if it's something that only crazy gullible people believe in when Jesus himself said to keep watch.

#8 Prioritising Pooks

Posted 05 May 2015 - 04:12 PM

Ok then.

#9 Ange remplie

Posted 05 May 2015 - 07:53 PM

I can find four new testament references to "antichrist," all of them in John's epistles.  

1 John 2:18 talks about "many antichrists."

1 John 2:22 describes anyone who does not believe in the Son as the antichrist.

1 John 4:3 talks of "the spirit of the antichrist," in the context of discussing discerning the Spirit of God.

2 John 1:7 says that any person who denies that Christ came in the flesh is the antichrist.

What I take from all of that is that "the antichrist" is not a single end-times figure, but a way of talking about those who reject Jesus, at any point in history.  I take that very seriously and I don't mock it.

However, I do feel free to point out the holes in what I see as the dodgy theology of some people who preach an eschatology which is neither Scriptural nor in accord with the church's teaching through the centuries.

#10 Literally Literary

Posted 05 May 2015 - 07:59 PM

I have missed this thread so much (and freely admit I could have and should have done something to resurrect it).

#11 Prioritising Pooks

Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:06 PM

I'm just wondering what the point of the original question is, actually. Where can it go, if plain and simple disagreement causes such consternation.

#12 .leahcar

Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:39 PM

I think that the scriptures do point towards a single end-times figure, although I prefer to describe it as the end of an age. I don't really get why I'm being questioned over my point. I asked because I find it interesting but forget it, I don't want to discuss any further.

2 Thessalonians 2

''Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.''

Revelation 13:

''It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.That number is 666.''

#13 Ange remplie

Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:49 PM

Revelation isn't primarily an end-times text.  More information on this in the first part of the blog post here.

I'm not saying there's nothing in Scripture about the end times - I'd want to do more work on the 2 Thess passage you cite before saying too much about it - but that taking the antichrist as an end-times figure is simply not in keeping with how the term is used in Scripture.

#14 Literally Literary

Posted 05 May 2015 - 09:10 PM

On a slightly different note, on what basis do people choose the ministries they contribute to and participate in?

#15 Ange remplie

Posted 05 May 2015 - 09:18 PM

:lol:  Somehow, LL, I imagine I'm not really your target audience for that question.  

But in terms of what I have the scope to decide for myself, rather than what are job requirements, as it were... a lot of it's about what I am good at, passionate about, that sort of thing.

#16 Literally Literary

Posted 05 May 2015 - 09:29 PM

I  was told once it should be things you dislike as there is more sacrifice involved. I thought that person was a joyless fool.

#17 Ange remplie

Posted 05 May 2015 - 10:21 PM

View PostLiterally Literary, on 05 May 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I  was told once it should be things you dislike as there is more sacrifice involved. I thought that person was a joyless fool.

Sounds like a recipe for burn out.

I remember one of the first things I ever did on discerning how to serve, in my original parish, used the acronym SHAPE.  You find your place in ministry by finding the unique place where your Spiritual gifts, Heart, Abilities, Personality and Experience means you fit.

Not fool proof but not a bad start.

#18 Prioritising Pooks

Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:46 AM

View PostLiterally Literary, on 05 May 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I  was told once it should be things you dislike as there is more sacrifice involved. I thought that person was a joyless fool.

Don't you remember that bit in the sermon on the mount, "blessed are those that make themselves unnecessarily miserable, for they shall surely get extra brownie points from the big guy"?

Wanted to share this event on Faith, Sexuality and Gender Diversity for any interested Melbournites.


#19 .leahcar

Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:22 PM

View PostLiterally Literary, on 05 May 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I  was told once it should be things you dislike as there is more sacrifice involved. I thought that person was a joyless fool.

Maybe they couldn't find the right words, could they have meant this scripture?

Matthew 16:24-25

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Edited by lucky 2, 06 May 2015 - 12:37 PM.

#20 Ianthe

Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:43 PM

I think a lot of service involves sacrifice. Sacrifice of time and money. I don't think service is always joyful but I do think that we should use the skills and gifts we have. The Bible is pretty clear that we are all gifted differently and work together for the good of the body of Christ.

#21 Prioritising Pooks

Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:47 PM

I thought that was about submitting to the will of God, not looking for ways to be unhappy for extra sacrifice kudos. There are multiple exhortations in the bible to use your gifts and talents... I would have thought it pretty safe to say that it pleases God to see us use the gifts and talents God has given us. Otherwise, what a waste!

Where in this thread have people misused the name of the Lord? Perhaps people have different ideas of what constitutes misuse? I agree it's important not to be unnecessarily offensive or disrespectful, but there also needs to be room for difference.

#22 Froggilicious

Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:56 PM

Definitely Ianthe, but there is a difference between accepting that service will require sacrifice and deliberately encouraging people to serve in a way which doesn't enable them to use their gifts and results in them being miserable. There has to be some ability to take joy in the act of service despite the sacrifice made.

#23 .leahcar

Posted 06 May 2015 - 01:40 PM

why was my post censored?

#24 Froggilicious

Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:08 PM

You should probably take that up with the mod who censored it.

#25 somila

Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:22 PM

View PostLiterally Literary, on 05 May 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I  was told once it should be things you dislike as there is more sacrifice involved. I thought that person was a joyless fool.

That reminds me a bit of Chairman Mao and the Cultural Revolution.

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