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Routine Advice


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#1 ~Supernova~

Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:07 PM

Ok...we aren't really routine kind of people, but it's becoming clear that DS prefers it. No matter how late his last nap, or last meal, he still wants to sleep at the same time, eat at the same time etc etc. He has also turned from a crappy sleeper to well...a nightmare lol.

Previously he would have dinner at around 4 or 4.30 (have tried to push it later but he gets cranky).
DH would get home and have a play with him.
He'd have a piece of fruit.
A shower.
Some playtime with his sister.
Then bed at around 6/6.30.

So we have started trying to do it this way:

Dinner at 4/4.30
DH gets home and has a play with him.
Piece of fruit.
Shower.
Play with sister while DH and I have a coffee/wine/whatever.
Quiet playtime with DH and I.
Read a book.
Goodnights and cuddles with sister.
Bedtime at 6/6.30

Same order every day.

I don't really know what else to add to enforce that "this is bedtime". I thought of a massage, but this kid can't sit still for more than 30 seconds. The book reading is very interesting lol.

Any ideas???

FWIW he co sleeps (which we want to change) and we cuddle him to sleep still. We briefly attempted CC but he doesn't have any kind of "whingy crying" it's just immediate hysteria and vomit inducing screaming sad.gif



#2 Corella

Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:24 PM

So you have a routine and a child who clearly needs it and you want... What precisely? I'm not sure what the problem is.

#3 minidiamond

Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:24 PM

What age ?

I got a second hand suggested routine from a friend who employed a mother care nurse.  I think you need to consider the rest of the day's routine as well.  That said, I sometimes have issues filling the time between dinner and bedtime but I'd start the quiet time later perhaps ? This is what we do anyway, there's a routine of sorts before this but just to cover our arvo:

4.30pm dinner then sits in chair if he'll do it, plays with DH etc
5.30pm a little walk or more playing
5.45pm feed one side (BF)
6pm nappy off time, rolls around on floor
6.30pm bathtime
massage/cuddles/jarmies
feed other side
book
quiet song & cuddles
bed

Maybe move the shower further down so that relaxes him and he goes into quiet mode from there, rather than play with sister etc.

Good luck !

#4 axiomae

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

I'm not really sure what you're asking here... ?

#5 live_love_laugh

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:32 PM

So what is the actual issue, we won't sleep at 6:30pm? Or won't stay asleep long enough? Or what?

#6 Jenflea

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:39 PM

i need a bit more info about the whole day, ie what time is lunch and does he have an afternoon snack?
To me dinner at 4.30 and then only fruit until breakfast isn't enough food. Does he get milk at night?
What about his sleep is nightmare? Night waking? not sleeping in own bed?

To stop the cosleeping, start by getting him to nap in his cot then work on nighttime maybe.
My daughter is nearly 3 and we still sit next to the cot for a few minutes (getting shorter as she gets older thank god lol) while she slowly gets off to sleep.
I don't think you can stick a co sleeper into a cot and then walk out, of course he'll scream. You need to do it gradually as he feels more and more comfortable.


#7 Miss Kiwi

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:45 PM

If he has become a nightmare sleeper that could also be due to his daytime sleep routine. What is his daytime routine as you haven't mentioned it?

From reading your post the times you are now doing things don't seem much different to what you were doing?

Sorry no advice on the cosleeping:(

#8 ~Supernova~

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:47 PM

He has problems going to sleep, and staying asleep.

I'm just after advice on what things to add into the routine, if any.

Lunch can be anytime, it depends when he naps :S But he grazes throughout the day anyway. There is always an afternoon snack at 2/2.30.

His entire sleep is a nightmare. From going to sleep, to staying asleep, to night wakings.

Have tried naps in the day in his cot, they last 20 minutes tops.

As for milk, he has refused bottles and cups of milk since about 8mths. We feed him a bottle when he is asleep. Could be anything from 80 to 150ml.

ETA I don't stick him in the cot and walk out. The very second you put him in there, even sitting next to it and singing/shushing/rubbing his back, he is standing up and hysterical.

Daytime naps, we tell him it's sleepytime, we make a bottle (which he doesn't drink until he is asleep, but won't sleep unless it's there) and lay down and go to sleep.

Edited by Mareek, 19 February 2013 - 08:50 PM.


#9 Jenflea

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:52 PM

How about cheese or yoghurt before bed to help keep him full and give some dairy and protein?
How old is he? About 1?
I went through a stage of needing to resettle my daughter for her day naps too, lasted a few months, now she sleeps 2 hours without trouble in the afternoon. I took it as an opportunity to nap with her original.gif
Have you tried cuddling him till ALMOST asleep then putting him in his cot and sitting with him patting till he falls asleep?
That worked for us( for my husband more than me actually).

#10 ~Supernova~

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:53 PM

QUOTE (Jenflea @ 19/02/2013, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How about cheese or yoghurt before bed to help keep him full and give some dairy and protein?
How old is he? About 1?
I went through a stage of needing to resettle my daughter for her day naps too, lasted a few months, now she sleeps 2 hours without trouble in the afternoon. I took it as an opportunity to nap with her original.gif
Have you tried cuddling him till ALMOST asleep then putting him in his cot and sitting with him patting till he falls asleep?
That worked for us( for my husband more than me actually).


Yep, tried that. Still hysterical sad.gif

He has yoghurt for morning tea...fruit isn't the only thing he eats after dinner. He will usually have either some cheese, or some of DD's dinner too. Food is definitely not the issue, he eats heaps.

#11 ~Supernova~

Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:25 PM

Just to clarify.

He is almost 1.
I don't care what time he eats.
I don't care what time he sleeps.
I don't mind cuddling him to sleep.
He eats plenty.
Co sleeping is a bit of a pain, but if it means we all sleep, then it's fine.
His day sleeps are hit and miss difficulty wise, some sleeps he is off like a light, others are a screaming match.
We do the same thing every time, never with the same result.
Some nights he goes to sleep well and sleeps through (maybe once or twice a week) without us doing anything differently.
HE is the one who seems to like routine.

Hence, I wanted to know if there was anything more routine wise that I could add in or change that would help him to know "this is bedtime".

ETA - Jenflea, this was his day today:

Awake at 6.
weetbix and apple puree
yoghurt
play

Slept at 8.30 for 15mins, had 100ml of milk

Half a mandarin
Half a banana
Some sultanas
Some nuts
rice cake

Lunch: half a vegemite sandwich, a few pieces of my fish, some ham, some cheese, some chickpeas

Slept for an hour at 12, had 100ml of milk

custard and a biscuit for afternoon tea

dinner at 4, large helping of mushroom and chicken pasta

a full banana

some cheese

Asleep at 6.30, drank 80ml

Awake at 8...hysterical until 15minutes ago. Didn't want any milk, water, or food.

Edited by Mareek, 19 February 2013 - 09:32 PM.


#12 Miss Kiwi

Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

Sorry I have no idea! I would be booking in with your nearest sleep school if I were you.
Good luck original.gif

#13 ~Supernova~

Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (Miss Kiwi @ 19/02/2013, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry I have no idea! I would be booking in with your nearest sleep school if I were you.
Good luck original.gif


I wish! I did this with DD and it worked a charm. No sleep school in our town sad.gif

#14 Jenflea

Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:50 PM

Well food certainly isn't the issue! He eats heaps!
Just off the top of my head, have you had his ears checked? Could it possibly be an ear problem, so when he lies down there's pressure on the ear drum or something causing him to be in pain?
Otherwise I've got nothing really. He's a bit young (I THINK) for nightmares and night terrors. Have you tried calling a sleep school for advice? Can they do a phone conference thing maybe?

#15 ~Supernova~

Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:38 AM

QUOTE (Jenflea @ 19/02/2013, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well food certainly isn't the issue! He eats heaps!
Just off the top of my head, have you had his ears checked? Could it possibly be an ear problem, so when he lies down there's pressure on the ear drum or something causing him to be in pain?
Otherwise I've got nothing really. He's a bit young (I THINK) for nightmares and night terrors. Have you tried calling a sleep school for advice? Can they do a phone conference thing maybe?


That's a thought, will have to get them checked and rule it out. Maybe I could try calling the sleep school I went to with DD and see if they have any advice.

He doesn't really seem to know if he wants to drop to one nap or not (the morning nap has been troublesome for a while (not always difficult, but often very short) so maybe he is just having difficulty with the transition and getting into a cycle of overtiredness.

I WILL sleep one day lol

#16 JBH

Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:00 AM

We found that it helped with DS to have a "sleep song". We picked a calm song we could both sing and started singing it to him when he was calm and sleepy. Once he'd started to associate it with sleep, we would sing it before bed, and also if he woke during the night. It was a hint we got from my mum, and my childhood sleep song still makes me nod off! I wouldn't expect it to fix your problem, but it could be an additional step in the routine.

#17 ~Supernova~

Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:24 AM

QUOTE (JBH @ 20/02/2013, 07:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We found that it helped with DS to have a "sleep song". We picked a calm song we could both sing and started singing it to him when he was calm and sleepy. Once he'd started to associate it with sleep, we would sing it before bed, and also if he woke during the night. It was a hint we got from my mum, and my childhood sleep song still makes me nod off! I wouldn't expect it to fix your problem, but it could be an additional step in the routine.


That's great, thank you! I often sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow to him when he is very unsettled, so we could use this original.gif I don't expect anything individually will help, but am hoping a good routine will start us off in the right direction.

#18 Escapin

Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:32 AM

Even though you want him to see his dad in the evening, he might be ready for lights out much earlier. Like 5pm. DD is now 22 months, and bed time is 5.30. When she was around 1, bedtime was between 4.45 and 5pm. For the night. She was a rubbish day sleeper too.

Also, I wouldn't add anything to the routine, if anything, take things out. The list is already pretty long. DD's routine is:
dinner
bath
book
feed
bed

Hope some of that helps.


#19 kpingitquiet

Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:16 AM

Do you try to resettle at all after the 15 min nap in the morning? 1hr15mins naps seems like very little for an under-1yo. But I only have experience with my child and she went to one day sleep at about your son's age. She consistently sleeps 2-3hrs in the afternoon and has since we dropped one of the naps. Her "routine" since then has been:

Wake 730-830am, couple sips of milk
Breakfast (eggs, toast, fruit or similar combo)
Play
12pm Lunch (sandwich or soup or leftovers)
Quiet play/movie time
1/2pmish - 4pm Naptime w/ small cup of milk
430pm snack (half a banana or small bowl of grapes, etc)
430-6pm playtime with dad
6pm dinner (whatever we're having)
Play
7pm Bathtime
Short video (pajanimals or charlie bear, something mellow) + small cup of milk with mom
Teeth
Story with dad
Bed by 8pm w/ night light, a book to look at, and "ni ni songs" playing (Rockabye Baby mp3s on a timer) and she's usually out for the night within 10-15 mins.

We didn't really have a routine at first and had a miserable time getting her to nap and sleep when she/we needed to, but she seems to function best with a general procedure, even if the times swing by an hour or so in either direction.

#20 Guest_Dinah_Harris_*

Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:29 AM

I don't have much more to add except that could you try cutting out the 8:30am nap in favour of a hopefully longer afternoon sleep?
My DD2 has never been the best sleeper,  and I know that if she nods off in the car during the morning kindy run,  for example,  she is impossible to get to sleep properly for the rest of the day.   It seems to mess up her whole routine.   I can't explain why,  but she has always been like this.

#21 Libertine

Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:29 AM

If you need a sleepy time song 'soft kitty' is the miracle sleep making song in this house lol. Works on DD1 who is 4 and DD2 who is only 4 months. No idea why lol.

Also agree with the pp who said maybe look at an earlier bedtime. I found with DD1 that if I missed the 'window of opportunity' (which was always much earlier than I thought) then she'd be a nightmare to settle.

#22 ~Supernova~

Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

I have tried both resettling the morning nap (NEVER successful) and cutting it out completely (overtired miserable mess) BUT he did have a 3 hour midday nap. I would keep doing this except he tends to fall asleep when we take DD to school, so it's really only possible to stretch him out on weekends.

He doesn't always have such little naps. Some days it is 3 hours total of naps, some days 2. There's no real consistency.

His bedtime used to be 5.30, but he is pretty much impossible now to settle until the 6/6.30 mark.

Stretching out the first nap HAS helped with 4am wakeups, he sleeps til 5.30/6am now. So we've had one small win lol.

He's an odd child, he is often easier to settle when he's been up for 4+ hours. There seems to be no "one thing" that makes it easier or harder to settle him. Sometimes it's a breeze, sometimes it's a nightmare. He's a confusing little creature!

I do feel he would be better with one long nap, but it's next to impossible to keep him awake on the school trip, even with music blaring, DD playing with him, singing to him...he just drops off.

#23 ~Supernova~

Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:38 AM

Well that was pleasant. He had literally a 5minute nap, drank 130ml and woke up happy and bouncing! Arghhh

#24 Princess.cranky.pants

Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:51 AM

DD3 was my problem sleeper. She loves routine but nothing helped when it came to bed time. And I tired it all! Eventually we went to sleep school we have not looked back.

Could you travel to sleep school? When I went there were a few that lived a long way away and had traveled to be there.



#25 ~Supernova~

Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:26 AM

Travelling is something I will have to consider. Logistically it would be a nightmare to be gone for a week. DD's school and DH's work are definitely not compatible.  But I'm getting rather desperate so we will have to see what we can manage. I looked into private help, but at $3000 for 3 days, it's just a little out of our budget lol.




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