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Why don't school development days occur during school holidays?
One for the teachers


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#1 YodaTheWrinkledOne

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:43 AM

Genuine curiosity, why don't school development days occur during the school holidays when the students aren't attending anyway?

#2 toosenuf

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

QUOTE (YodaTheWrinkledOne @ 13/02/2013, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Genuine curiosity, why don't school development days occur during the school holidays when the students aren't attending anyway?



i have wondered about this too original.gif

#3 PrincessPeach

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

Public or Private School?

Pupil Free Days always used to be used for this sort of thing.

#4 Feraldadathome

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:51 AM

Because government's haven't offered sufficient incentive to encourage teachers to attend work on their days of non-attendance. In NSW, agreement to individual, designated shcool development days was a big cost saving.

(in NSW at least, teachers get 4 week's annual leave, with the rest of the school holidays covered by official non-attendance. The annual salary accounts for that period of non-attendance)

#5 Heather11

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:53 AM

One of the reasons I can gather is that contract staff don't get paid for holidays.  Therefore they will be not be getting paid while doing the PD.

#6 liveworkplay

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:58 AM

They do as well in some schools. Teachers are contracted to do a certain number of days per year (as well as a certain number of face to face teaching time). How the school organises that is up to their relevant governing bodies.

#7 somila

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:59 AM

And there are so many contract staff these days. A couple of teachers in my staff room were "sacked" a week before the end of school last year, and their contracts were renewed in January.

They have been at the school for 3 or 4 years at least, and are both working as co-ordinators as well as classroom teachers and have significant extra-curricular involvement.

I'm assuming it's all about the money that the government saves over the summer holidays, but ...

Seriously, just give these people permanent employment!!!

Rant over.

#8 Lyra

Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:00 AM

QUOTE (Heather11 @ 13/02/2013, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One of the reasons I can gather is that contract staff don't get paid for holidays.  Therefore they will be not be getting paid while doing the PD.



This is and also because some contract teachers might not even know what school they have been assigned to until the first day of term or even the first week.

#9 FeralRebelWClaws

Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:03 AM

I teach in the ACT (I've taught both College and High School) and ours are all in stand down.

This year school went back Feb 4th and teachers were required to be at PD on Jan 30th to Feb 1st. On the odd occasion where there aren't enough days at the beginning of the year then they will do another one in the April stand down. Like the year that easter was the last weekend of term and then they put a PD day on the Tuesday, which is awesome if your partner isn't a teacher and you would have liked to have had a holiday using the 4 days of Easter. Mind you I rarely have time to have a "holiday."

Edited by PussyDids, 13 February 2013 - 11:03 AM.


#10 Bam1

Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE (Sassy Girl @ 13/02/2013, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They don't occur during holidays because teachers are people too and need time off  rant.gif Many teachers use the school holidays to spend time with their children as well as do normal school work, I am sure they'd love to do extra work as well during their time off  rant.gif rant.gif rant.gif rant.gif


But aren't all employees people too and need time off? The question is raised because despite at least 10 weeks of school holidays, teachers still need to take school development days on teaching days. Most employees only have 4 weeks off and also love to spend time with children, with friends etc etc

Fortunately other PPs have put more logical reasons why they can't be taken during the school holidays.

#11 Yogurtbliss

Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:42 AM

I knew eventually this would come down to the ten weeks holidays! In reality, teachers are paid for 6 hours work a day (in Queensland- yep that's on our pay slips!) despite being at work for about 8 hours to complete the school day. Work done at home, parent teacher evenings, camps etc do not attract any further pay. Oh and the holidays are at a fixed time every year which can be tough if you need to go away for a wedding etc, you can't take it out of your annual leave, you usually just can't go.

This said, it is a rewarding career, and the holidays certainly make it easier to catch up on planning and marking when required, as well as to reenergise for another great term!

From an administration point of view, there are limited providers of quality professional development, if we limited the times available, the development may not necessarily be quality.

Finally, teachers are required to do 30 hours professional development annually to maintain their accreditation (also Queensland) so it is reasonable that at least some of these hours occur during term time, or I think we would see even more teachers leaving the profession due to burn out!


#12 Lady Garden

Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (Jbonnett @ 13/02/2013, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Finally, teachers are required to do 30 hours professional development annually to maintain their accreditation (also Queensland) so it is reasonable that at least some of these hours occur during term time, or I think we would see even more teachers leaving the profession due to burn out!

That's 4.2 days.

Or 2.1 days in the Term 1 holidays, and 2.1 days in the Term 2 holidays, which are agreed as being non-attending work days.

So that's basically one day a week during the Term 2 and 3 breaks that could be spent doing your PD, given that you're working anyway  shrug.gif

Do you have to personally pay for your PD, or does the school cover it?

#13 José

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

I find it hard to believe that this is a serious question. I used to work in retail where we had product training sessions but you werent expected to attend if you were on holidays.  I have also worked in tourism where we had training sessions but again those on leave were not expected to attend.  Not sure why teachers would be different?

#14 Yogurtbliss

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

Some the school will cover, some you end up paying for yourself, which can be claimed on tax.

Most (all I have ever been to!) are run during school hours, minus breaks, so you only end up with 5 hours per day, not sure if that is school or presenter preference though!



#15 KT1978

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

QUOTE
And there are so many contract staff these days. A couple of teachers in my staff room were "sacked" a week before the end of school last year, and their contracts were renewed in January.

They have been at the school for 3 or 4 years at least, and are both working as co-ordinators as well as classroom teachers and have significant extra-curricular involvement.

I'm assuming it's all about the money that the government saves over the summer holidays, but ...


QUOTE
One of the reasons I can gather is that contract staff don't get paid for holidays. Therefore they will be not be getting paid while doing the PD.


I don't understand how they are saving money by "sacking" people when they aren't paid in holidays to start with anyway.

Shouldn't contract workers be on a higher rate to account for annual leave etc?



#16 YodaTheWrinkledOne

Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

QUOTE (PrincessPeach @ 13/02/2013, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Public or Private School?

Pupil Free Days always used to be used for this sort of thing.

Does it matter?

I figured it's called "Pupil Free Days" for the students and parents sake, but the teachers/staff realise it's for their own planning/development etc.

QUOTE (Lyra @ 13/02/2013, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is and also because some contract teachers might not even know what school they have been assigned to until the first day of term or even the first week.

that's bad planning.  sad.gif

QUOTE (Sassy Girl @ 13/02/2013, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They don't occur during holidays because teachers are people too and need time off  rant.gif Many teachers use the school holidays to spend time with their children as well as do normal school work, I am sure they'd love to do extra work as well during their time off  rant.gif rant.gif rant.gif rant.gif

Okay, you don't have to rant.  I'm trying to understand this.  The average punter has no idea about the working arrangements for teachers.  I'm not trying to be deliberately inflammatory, I'm trying to understand why it is so.  

Other jobs/professions have 4 weeks of annual leave (usually) to have some time off and spend time with their family.  Given that there is around 10 weeks of school holidays when students do not attend, I presume that for most teacher, the 10 weeks of student non-attendance includes standard 4 weeks annual leave, leaving 6 weeks of school holidays where teachers/staff do not go into the "office", so to speak.  I was just wondering why staff development and training can't be done during this student non-attendence time.

And teachers are not the only profession to do longer hours than required contact/office hours.  My sympathy on that score is not high.  Yes, it's intense during school term, but for many teachers they get a good break every three months or so.

QUOTE (Bam1 @ 13/02/2013, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But aren't all employees people too and need time off? The question is raised because despite at least 10 weeks of school holidays, teachers still need to take school development days on teaching days. Most employees only have 4 weeks off and also love to spend time with children, with friends etc etc

This is what I was trying to ask.  Thank you.

QUOTE
This year school went back Feb 4th and teachers were required to be at PD on Jan 30th to Feb 1st. On the odd occasion where there aren't enough days at the beginning of the year then they will do another one in the April stand down.

Genuinely curious, why wouldn't there be enough days in January?


QUOTE ( @ 13/02/2013, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I find it hard to believe that this is a serious question. I used to work in retail where we had product training sessions but you werent expected to attend if you were on holidays.  I have also worked in tourism where we had training sessions but again those on leave were not expected to attend.  Not sure why teachers would be different?

I'm not expected to attend training on my holidays.  Mind you, I don't have 6 weeks a year when I have no client/office contact.

I'm confused - do permanent teachers get paid for 40 weeks of work, spread over 52 weeks?  Or do permanent teachers get paid for 48 weeks, spread over 52 weeks? (second option is what happens with most people - 48 weeks of work + 4 weeks of annual leave = 52 weeks).

I have been a contract teacher/lecturer (university), so I completely get that as a contract employee, you are only paid for the term of teaching, not for time outside of the teaching term. Higher rate of pay but the pay has to last for the periods of time when you are not teaching (which is painful over Xmas).  Mind you, even as a contract employee, if I was expected to undertake training, I was paid for this, and it occurred outside of my face-to-face teaching timetable.  They didn't expect me to not teach for a few days during semester when students were waiting, training usually occurred on a non-teaching day or during the evenings.

Sorry, my question was not meant to inflame.  But I don't really know what the work/pay arrangements are for teachers, hence my curiosity about why this happens.

Edited by YodaTheWrinkledOne, 13 February 2013 - 01:04 PM.


#17 FeralRebelWClaws

Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:04 PM

QUOTE (Bam1 @ 13/02/2013, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But aren't all employees people too and need time off? The question is raised because despite at least 10 weeks of school holidays, teachers still need to take school development days on teaching days. Most employees only have 4 weeks off and also love to spend time with children, with friends etc etc


If I were a typical APS employee, for the hours I work I would end up with more than 12 weeks off due to time in lieu. I don't earn more... I am on the equivalent APS scale. APS employees would not be expected to do training in their leave periods.

The more that is asked of teachers, with no compensation, the lower quality of graduate teaching attracts.

Honestly, I tend to spend the first week of my stand down catching up on sleep. Teaching is incredibly draining and I teach fantastic mature kids who are 16-18 (I have 1 class with students with special needs). I would imagine it is worse for those teaching 5 year olds!

I get really tired of feeling as though I have to justify my salary, my holidays, my work hours etc to society. TBH it's the worse part of the job. No one feels compelled to have opinions on the conditions of doctors, or swimming teachers or dance coaches or any other person that comes in regular contact with children.

#18 Heather11

Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

QUOTE
QUOTE (Lyra @ 13/02/2013, 11:00 AM)
This is and also because some contract teachers might not even know what school they have been assigned to until the first day of term or even the first week.
that's bad planning.


This can be due also to a sudden influx of enrollments over the summer holidays.  At a public school you can rock up on the first day and enrol.  This may mean they have to add an extra class and employee another staff member.

#19 YodaTheWrinkledOne

Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

QUOTE (PussyDids @ 13/02/2013, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I get really tired of feeling as though I have to justify my salary, my holidays, my work hours etc to society. TBH it's the worse part of the job. No one feels compelled to have opinions on the conditions of doctors, or swimming teachers or dance coaches or any other person that comes in regular contact with children.

Sorry.  It's DD's first year and so it's the first time I've had to grapple with the whole student-free day thing on top of school holidays.  When you only have 4 weeks of annual leave and no back-up family/support, it can be a big issue as to how to find care for your kids on these extra student-free days.

I think teachers are great.  All the teachers I know put a lot of effort into their teaching, care about their students and have more patience/stamina than I would have with a classroom of kids.  My question was not meant as a criticism, but more a genuine curiosity about how this came to pass.

Edited by YodaTheWrinkledOne, 13 February 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#20 niggles

Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:45 PM

I work with teachers, and we often have them coming in on their school holidays to plan and arrange resources with us. Some also attend professional development sessions with us in their own holiday time.

Mandated professional development arranged by the school has to be done in term time because at other times the teachers are on holidays and their time is their own. Just like any other profession.

#21 farfaraway

Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:50 PM

Thank you PussyDids for articulating what my seething brain could not. Well said.  cclap.gif

#22 pitzinoodles

Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:10 PM

QUOTE (PussyDids @ 13/02/2013, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I were a typical APS employee, for the hours I work I would end up with more than 12 weeks off due to time in lieu. I don't earn more... I am on the equivalent APS scale. APS employees would not be expected to do training in their


I really don't understand this. Can you spell it out for me please.

#23 Milly Molly Mandy

Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:10 PM

Seriously OP? Because it is their holidays! As to how many weeks holidays they have it doesn't really matter. The time you think they should be training is part of their agreed holidays.

I guess thd alternative is to not give them any training time at all. Let's see how that works.

Teachers you rock!!! You do a great job teaching our kids and helping them grow into the adults they will become. All of this done with a smile on your face despite the b**chy misinformed parents (not directed at anyone here) you have to deal with.

Enjoy your well deserved holidays.

#24 SarahBelle48

Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:22 PM

QUOTE (PussyDids @ 13/02/2013, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I were a typical APS employee, for the hours I work I would end up with more than 12 weeks off due to time in lieu. I don't earn more... I am on the equivalent APS scale. APS employees would not be expected to do training in their leave periods.

But those 12 weeks would be covered by the "official non-attendance periods" that PPs mentioned, wouldn't they? As in over the 52 weeks, the total number of hours worked would probably balance out. This is a genuine question btw, I'm not having a go at you or anything.

Also rather than starting another thread, can I just use this thread to clarify something in regards to teachers and leave. When its said that they have 4 weeks annual leave, is this leave absorbed by the school holiday periods or in addition to? As incould you use that 4 weeks leave during school terms? Its just that I had a family member who is a teacher and she was always going off on 2-3 week long holidays during school terms and we always wondered how she got the leave to do that.

#25 pitzinoodles

Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:24 PM

QUOTE (Milly Molly Mandy @ 13/02/2013, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously OP? Because it is their holidays! As to how many weeks holidays they have it doesn't really matter. The time you think they should be training is part of their agreed holidays.


So are teachers only paid for 42weeks/yr?

I am genuinely trying to get my head around the whole thing.

Edited to fix up number of weeks.

Edited by pitzinoodles, 13 February 2013 - 02:26 PM.





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