Jump to content

Should post vaccination immunity be verified.
Should the Government regulate this?


  • Please log in to reply
51 replies to this topic

#1 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:42 AM

We don't vaccinate for medical reasons (amongst others, medical was only the tipping point).

So, yesterday I had a call from kinder saying a child (who is vaccinated) has been diagnosed with Whooping Cough. Mr 4 has already started antibiotics and will be back at kinder on Monday.

However, none of the other kids (all vaccinated), besides the infected child, in his group of 25 children is taking the antibiotics, because they have been vaccinated.

In the general population Whooping Cough vaccine (DTaP) has between 80-90% efficacy. So in a group of 24 vaccinated children, statically 4-5 of those children do not have enough immunity to prevent catching, and spreading the disease.

As well as this, up to 25% of all Whooping Cough cases are thought to by asymptomatic (no symptoms), and most of those cases are found in adults and vaccinated children.

So, theoretically, one of the children who is vaccinated in the group may have contracted Whooping Cough from the infected child, and will not develop symptoms but will spread the disease.

I have long believed there should be annual testing of immunity levels in the vaccinated population. This is commonly done in animals - their antibody titers are tested annually.

So, why is this not done for our children, would that not increase herd immunity? (not that I believe in herd immunity, but for all those people who do...)

If vaccinations are to be treated seriously, surely it pays to make sure children are immune. Many people find out in early pregnancy that they have not developed immunity to Rubella despite repeated immunisation, surely similar testing should be done for all vaccines!

WDYT - please try to stay on topic and resist the urge to lecture me on not vaccinating.

In case you are unclear of the question, I am asking, 'Should post-vaccination immunity levels be tested to prove immunity?'

Edited by Sif, 13 February 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#2 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:46 AM

I think it's hard enough just to get everybody vaccinated.  To test seroconversion annually would have massive cost and compliance issues.  Not that I'm saying it would be bad, if we had endless goodwill and resources, but since we don't, I doubt we could make it work.

#3 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:50 AM

How would you test vaccination immunity?  Can this be done for all diseases in the same way as Rubella? Otherwise dont you run the risk of spreading the disease instead?

And the non-vaccinated kids still definately wont be immune, even if a few of the vaccinated kids arent

Edited by Soccer Mum, 13 February 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#4 Futureself

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

To NOT develop antibodies is the exception rather than the rule so no, I don't think annual testing is a logical option. Being aware of boosters and ensuring teens and adults are actually up to date is what is sorely needed for true herd immunity.
Having said that, in certain scenarios I probably would get DS's immunity checked to particular disease - for example Hepatitis, if travelling to areas where these diseases are prevalent.
I have more of a problem with loading my child with antibiotics every time a peer is sick quite frankly. Antibiotic overuse in the individual and in society has proven repercussions and yet...

#5 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:54 AM

What would you do differently with this information?

People that don't seroconvert, tend not to seroconvert. Vaccinated kids already get multiple doses of vaccine. If any of these kids get sick I have no doubt they would be rapidly tested, and isolated pending results.

Are you just miffed your child had to take antibiotics and the others didn't?

#6 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:55 AM

QUOTE (Soccer Mum @ 13/02/2013, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How would you test vaccination immunity?


It's fairly simple to take a blood sample and test for the presence of antibodies.

#7 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:56 AM

Is that the case for all vaccine preventable diseases, such as whooping cough?

#8 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

As far as I know.  I used to do it in the lab myself as a student.

#9 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:00 AM

In that case the OP raises a very interesting point. In theory it does sound like a good idea.
but it raises a couple of other questions. If somebody isnt immune, can you just vaccinate them again?

#10 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:03 AM


Testing for seroconversion requires a blood test.  People dont like blood tests. Governmen doesnt like paying for blood tests.  Its a compliance and health economics issue.   You are unlikely to get a lot of people to agree to a blood test that will only be of benefit to a few and the gov wont want to pay for tests that will only benefit a few.

Herd immunity is a fact  - you can believe it or not.



#11 annie13

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

I don't think my 2 year old would like to have a 'simple' blood test to see if she is seroconverted. It would be a huge cost with little benefit. How would testing for conversion increase herd immunity? Higher vaccination rates and up-keeping of booster shots would be of more benefit.

Edited by annie13, 13 February 2013 - 09:10 AM.


#12 kaboo

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (Ange Vert @ 13/02/2013, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's fairly simple to take a blood sample and test for the presence of antibodies.


Unless you have a child who has a massive panic attack and the only way they can take blood is to sedate him first...

#13 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:09 AM

QUOTE
What would you do differently with this information?


Well, it might help to further research on why some people do not seroconvert, and some don't the first time, but do the second or third time.

It seems to me that many people are very complacent about this. They aren't really concerned if their child has immunity, they're merely invested in being perceived as having 'done the right thing', if their child happens to be the child who didn't seroconvert (schools contain 1000 students, that's between 100-200 students who potentially can contract and spread disease, despite having been vaccinated), then, 'Oh well, at least we vaccinated.'

I believe my son had Whooping Cough two years ago, however as I have not verified his immunity, he is on antibiotics.

#14 FiveAus

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

Rather than titre test, we should be encouraging more children to be vaccinated and more adults to be getting boosters. Herd immunity works when everyone who can be vaccinated, is. If numbers slide, diseases reappear.

#15 Tobias'smum

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:13 AM

We did testing on me for my MMR immunity  - i wasnt immune even though i had the shot 6 months earlier - i genetically dont retain immunity so i have to be careful  but like pp said its a pain - a blood test  - the wait - i was lucky it was fully covered for me but its still cost tax payers money

#16 Sentient Puddle

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE
however as I have not verified his immunity, he is on antibiotics.
Well why dont you verify that information and then he wont have to take antibiotics next time???  Oh that is right - you wont even have your children have one set of needles - but want our children to have multiple sets!!  

And by the way the Govt does do research on the efficacy of vaccination. One of my children was involved in a research study on immunisation and his levels were tested.  This is information I do have - the Govt has it too and it contributes to the understanding of things like - I dont know - herd immunity perhaps!!

#17 Threelittleducks

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:15 AM

I am looking at volunteering in a hospital. At the information seminar this week we were told that all volunteers with patient contact roles must have their immunity tested and have vaccinations updated where required. The hospital pays for this and we were told it costs around $700 per person.

If what we were told is accurate, it is a considerable expense to be rolled out to the entire population.

#18 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:16 AM

QUOTE
Unless you have a child who has a massive panic attack and the only way they can take blood is to sedate him first...


QUOTE
I don't think my 2 year old would like to have a 'simple' blood test to see is she is seroconverted.


See, this is interesting. My children have hyperimmune reactions to vaccinations. My eldest has viral psoriasis - the worst case his dermatologist has ever seen in a child his age - it's not deadly, but it's painful and socially ostracising when it flairs up. I have been told by many other parents this condition is not a good enough reason not to vaccinate him, but here people are saying their child's fear of needles (I have trypanophobia my so I really do understand what it is like) is reason enough not to verify their child's immunity?

If I said I didn't vaccinated because my child had trypanophobia, there would be an uproar on EB.

#19 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

QUOTE
If what we were told is accurate, it is a considerable expense to be rolled out to the entire population.


Perhaps if it was done on a massive scale the cost would be reduced.

Also, vaccination schemes cost a lot of money, shouldn't their efficacy be verified, particularly in small children?

#20 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

So Sif, why didn't you test your DS for whooping cough at the time? And why don't you do so now?

And it seems strange to say people aren't worried about if their kids are immune. Firstly they wanted them to be, which is why they vaccinated. And secondly the reason people get cross at those who don't vaccinate, is because their kids can pass it on to those who don't seroconvert, as well as those vulnerable babies to young to have been vaccinated. If you've given your kids the vaccine, there is not much more you can do,  so how will testing help? And how do you know if the antibodies are low, your child still couldn't produce them if exposed to the pertussis bacteria again?

#21 Sentient Puddle

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

QUOTE
shouldn't their efficacy be verified, particularly in small children?
They are - or didnt you read my post???

#22 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:23 AM

And Sif, did you just imply there is no evidence about efficacy of vaccines? And there is no ongoing research into them now?

#23 Mpjp is feral

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:24 AM

My two children who were adopted were required to prove their immunity through titer tests.

Its not terribly easy to get blood out of a screaming, distressed, traumatised child.

Sounds good in theory but the reality is not so nice. And quite expensive. Adoptive parents are required to pay.....but can you imagine birth parents being required to do the same? Who else should fund this?

#24 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:31 AM

Just because you believe in vaccination, doesn't mean you don't want to look at other methods as well. I would have thought it would mean you considered prevention in general important. Your point makes no sense to me, Madame Protart.

A quick jab into a muscle is easy, even in a wiggling kid. Getting blood out of a tiny vein, in a moving target? Not so much.

#25 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:36 AM

It is generally acknowledged the whooping cough vaccine is only about 85% effective and that a lot of infections come from the adult population who are not vaccinated.  I dont think any one is being delusional.

What is the point of all this research  - non vaxers dont believe it anyway.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

Get your FREE Baby & Toddler Show ticket!

Get your free ticket to the Sydney Essential Baby & Toddler Show for September 25-27 - register online now.

Win Love Child Season 1 & 2 on DVD

To celebrate the release of Love Child Season 2 on DVD from July 9, Essential Baby and Universal Sony Pictures Home Entertainment are giving away Love Child Season 1 & 2 on DVD to 13 lucky winners.

10 things I wish my pre-baby self knew

I look back at my pre-baby self and laugh at how ridiculously easy I actually had it. I remember complaining about how tired I was and how little time I had.

Creative ways to store your child's art

Ideas for storing your child's artworks have moved on from sticking them to the fridge door before guiltily dumping them in the bin.

Child abuse ignored because 'it's not your children': Waleed Aly

Waleed Aly takes apart the immigration law that's designed to "protect politicians"

How a newborn niece changed star Australian basketballer's life

In August 2013 star basketball Abby Bishop was 24-years-old and in the prime of her sporting career.

Guilt is my new shadow

No one warned me that when I gave birth there would be an additional side order of guilt.

12 brilliant Ikea hacks for kids’ rooms

Check out these creative upcycling ideas that transform regular Ikea items into something special for your little ones.

Child's nightmare about 'man with a light' turned out to be real

For three days, a three-year-old boy had been saying there was "a man with a light" outside his window at night.

Toilet truths after giving birth

The thought of going to the toilet after giving birth is often feared, but there are ways to make it less painful.

Woman asks strangers for $1 million to stop her having an abortion

An anonymous woman is taking an extreme moral and ethical stand by seeking $1 million in donations to prevent her going ahead with a planned abortion.

How a woman's dying wish made another woman a mum

"I kind of think about, 'What did I do beforehand? What kept me so busy back then?' Because now I'm really busy."

The parenting do-over: what six parents did differently second time around

In playgrounds across Australia, you can hear parents lamenting, "When we have our next baby I swear I won't be doing THAT again".

A solo birth, a wasp swarm and a forest fire: mum and baby's amazing story of survival

Desperate, out of petrol and low on food, a new mother lit a fire in the hope of attracting attention.

Boy found on swing died of hypothermia and dehydration, autopsy finds

The story was chilling and heartbreaking: a three-year-old boy was found dead in a Southern Maryland park, his mother pushing him on the swing.

Child's play and laughter help battle fatigue

Feeling fatigued? Uh-huh, thought as much. Join the queue.

Dad shares entertaining 'how to hold a baby' clip

For many new dads, their own child is the first baby they have ever held. So one dad has posted an instructive YouTube video titled "How to Hold a Baby".

The Australian baby with 100,000 Facebook fans

She may be only eight months old, but Egypt has already amassed more than 100,000 fans and received a letter from royalty - Hollywood royalty that is.

Tongue tie: what you need to know

Tongue and lip tie can lead to many problems for babies - and their parents. Here are the signs of tongue tie and how it's treated.

My daughter is small but that doesn't matter

My daughter may be small, but it's my job as her parent to refocus back where it belongs - on who she is as a person

Wet wipes linked to rise in allergic reactions

The government has issued a health warning after a rise in allergic skin reactions has been linked to a preservative found in some wet wipes.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

27 funny ultrasound pictures

Ultrasounds give you a look at your growing baby ... and sometimes what appears to their womb-buddy, or your bub in an amusing position.

What all parents should know about safe babywearing

A picture of Ryan Reynolds always gets the girls talking, and a recently shared photo has done exactly that - but this time, it's for all the wrong reasons.

Baby's head shape reveals potentially fatal condition

Thinking her baby just had an unusually shaped head, a mother was shocked to discover it was instead linked to a dangerous condition.

Why IVF success rates may not be what you think

Transparency, accountability and responsibilityare essential measures to protect IVF vulnerable patients.

Mother-in-law 'from hell' inspires survival guide

The happily ever after Nicola Milan had imagined wasn't to be – and she blames her mother-in-law.

Owning a pair of nail scissors does not make me a hairdresser

It's been a whole year since sleeping in until 10am. A whole year since having a peaceful shower.

The 83 children who were tragically let down in the last decade

Over a 10-year period, 83 children died from domestic violence abuse in NSW, with three quarters of the victims aged five years or under, the NSW Ombudsman has revealed.

Is it reasonable to expect your partner to give up drinking in pregnancy?

From the moment that I fell pregnant with my son, I realised just how much my life had already started to change.

Stroke victim joins class action against makers of popular contraceptive pill

"I was terrified I would always be this way. The pill needs to come with a much higher warning."

Sexy time

Why you should get excited about scheduling sex

Unfortunately, the belief that sex should always be spontaneous is a myth. It just isn't.

When newborn photoshoots get messy

When it comes to newborn photoshoots, it is all about the timing.

Expert Q&A: Gross motor skill development in toddlers and preschoolers

Dr Katie Heathershaw answers questions about jumping, toe walking, riding a bike and being pigeon toed.

'Samuel is our firstborn, and he will never be forgotten'

Having lost their firstborn at one day old, the Carrolls were overjoyed to welcome their daughter Isobel into the world a year later.

Dad takes miraculous catch while feeding baby

One American father has taken multitasking to a new level at a Cubs-Dodgers baseball game at Wrigley Field.

Name your baby Quinoa, win a $10K gift card

Choosing a name for your little bundle of joy is always a major decision. It can be something traditional, trendy, creative … or inspired by the menu of your favourite chain restaurant.

On the 10th anniversary of my son's death

This day marks a significant day. Today marks 10 years since I lost my son Kai.

'Help - my toddler hits me!'

My toddler has started hitting when he gets frustrated, is feeling ignored, or just thinks it might be fun.

The top 6 misleading parenting terms

From 'morning sickness' to 'the terrible twos', there are many parenting terms that are misleading.

When 'good' nannies go bad

While most nannies take pride in their work, there can be some who have a hidden side.

Woman hospitalised for skinny jeans injury

Beware: skinny jeans might be bad for your health.

Gauze seeding: the bacteria-breeding birth trend

A number of women having caesarean deliveries are now taking steps to give their baby a better 'microbiome' start in life.

Jimmy Fallon writes new children's book for dads

Jimmy Fallon, host of NBC's The Tonight Show, recently wrote a children's book about every father's secret wish for their baby's first word to be "dada" - not "mama".

28 names for babies born in winter

Looking for some baby name inspiration for a bub born during the colder months? Here are 28 options from around the world to consider.

 

FREE TICKET

Get your FREE ticket to the Baby & Toddler Show

Get your free ticket to the Sydney Essential Baby & Toddler Show for September 25-27 - register online now.

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.