Jump to content

Should post vaccination immunity be verified.
Should the Government regulate this?


  • Please log in to reply
51 replies to this topic

#1 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:42 AM

We don't vaccinate for medical reasons (amongst others, medical was only the tipping point).

So, yesterday I had a call from kinder saying a child (who is vaccinated) has been diagnosed with Whooping Cough. Mr 4 has already started antibiotics and will be back at kinder on Monday.

However, none of the other kids (all vaccinated), besides the infected child, in his group of 25 children is taking the antibiotics, because they have been vaccinated.

In the general population Whooping Cough vaccine (DTaP) has between 80-90% efficacy. So in a group of 24 vaccinated children, statically 4-5 of those children do not have enough immunity to prevent catching, and spreading the disease.

As well as this, up to 25% of all Whooping Cough cases are thought to by asymptomatic (no symptoms), and most of those cases are found in adults and vaccinated children.

So, theoretically, one of the children who is vaccinated in the group may have contracted Whooping Cough from the infected child, and will not develop symptoms but will spread the disease.

I have long believed there should be annual testing of immunity levels in the vaccinated population. This is commonly done in animals - their antibody titers are tested annually.

So, why is this not done for our children, would that not increase herd immunity? (not that I believe in herd immunity, but for all those people who do...)

If vaccinations are to be treated seriously, surely it pays to make sure children are immune. Many people find out in early pregnancy that they have not developed immunity to Rubella despite repeated immunisation, surely similar testing should be done for all vaccines!

WDYT - please try to stay on topic and resist the urge to lecture me on not vaccinating.

In case you are unclear of the question, I am asking, 'Should post-vaccination immunity levels be tested to prove immunity?'

Edited by Sif, 13 February 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#2 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:46 AM

I think it's hard enough just to get everybody vaccinated.  To test seroconversion annually would have massive cost and compliance issues.  Not that I'm saying it would be bad, if we had endless goodwill and resources, but since we don't, I doubt we could make it work.

#3 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:50 AM

How would you test vaccination immunity?  Can this be done for all diseases in the same way as Rubella? Otherwise dont you run the risk of spreading the disease instead?

And the non-vaccinated kids still definately wont be immune, even if a few of the vaccinated kids arent

Edited by Soccer Mum, 13 February 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#4 Futureself

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

To NOT develop antibodies is the exception rather than the rule so no, I don't think annual testing is a logical option. Being aware of boosters and ensuring teens and adults are actually up to date is what is sorely needed for true herd immunity.
Having said that, in certain scenarios I probably would get DS's immunity checked to particular disease - for example Hepatitis, if travelling to areas where these diseases are prevalent.
I have more of a problem with loading my child with antibiotics every time a peer is sick quite frankly. Antibiotic overuse in the individual and in society has proven repercussions and yet...

#5 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:54 AM

What would you do differently with this information?

People that don't seroconvert, tend not to seroconvert. Vaccinated kids already get multiple doses of vaccine. If any of these kids get sick I have no doubt they would be rapidly tested, and isolated pending results.

Are you just miffed your child had to take antibiotics and the others didn't?

#6 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:55 AM

QUOTE (Soccer Mum @ 13/02/2013, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How would you test vaccination immunity?


It's fairly simple to take a blood sample and test for the presence of antibodies.

#7 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:56 AM

Is that the case for all vaccine preventable diseases, such as whooping cough?

#8 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

As far as I know.  I used to do it in the lab myself as a student.

#9 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:00 AM

In that case the OP raises a very interesting point. In theory it does sound like a good idea.
but it raises a couple of other questions. If somebody isnt immune, can you just vaccinate them again?

#10 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:03 AM


Testing for seroconversion requires a blood test.  People dont like blood tests. Governmen doesnt like paying for blood tests.  Its a compliance and health economics issue.   You are unlikely to get a lot of people to agree to a blood test that will only be of benefit to a few and the gov wont want to pay for tests that will only benefit a few.

Herd immunity is a fact  - you can believe it or not.



#11 annie13

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

I don't think my 2 year old would like to have a 'simple' blood test to see if she is seroconverted. It would be a huge cost with little benefit. How would testing for conversion increase herd immunity? Higher vaccination rates and up-keeping of booster shots would be of more benefit.

Edited by annie13, 13 February 2013 - 09:10 AM.


#12 kaboo

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (Ange Vert @ 13/02/2013, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's fairly simple to take a blood sample and test for the presence of antibodies.


Unless you have a child who has a massive panic attack and the only way they can take blood is to sedate him first...

#13 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:09 AM

QUOTE
What would you do differently with this information?


Well, it might help to further research on why some people do not seroconvert, and some don't the first time, but do the second or third time.

It seems to me that many people are very complacent about this. They aren't really concerned if their child has immunity, they're merely invested in being perceived as having 'done the right thing', if their child happens to be the child who didn't seroconvert (schools contain 1000 students, that's between 100-200 students who potentially can contract and spread disease, despite having been vaccinated), then, 'Oh well, at least we vaccinated.'

I believe my son had Whooping Cough two years ago, however as I have not verified his immunity, he is on antibiotics.

#14 FiveAus

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

Rather than titre test, we should be encouraging more children to be vaccinated and more adults to be getting boosters. Herd immunity works when everyone who can be vaccinated, is. If numbers slide, diseases reappear.

#15 Tobias'smum

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:13 AM

We did testing on me for my MMR immunity  - i wasnt immune even though i had the shot 6 months earlier - i genetically dont retain immunity so i have to be careful  but like pp said its a pain - a blood test  - the wait - i was lucky it was fully covered for me but its still cost tax payers money

#16 Sentient Puddle

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE
however as I have not verified his immunity, he is on antibiotics.
Well why dont you verify that information and then he wont have to take antibiotics next time???  Oh that is right - you wont even have your children have one set of needles - but want our children to have multiple sets!!  

And by the way the Govt does do research on the efficacy of vaccination. One of my children was involved in a research study on immunisation and his levels were tested.  This is information I do have - the Govt has it too and it contributes to the understanding of things like - I dont know - herd immunity perhaps!!

#17 Threelittleducks

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:15 AM

I am looking at volunteering in a hospital. At the information seminar this week we were told that all volunteers with patient contact roles must have their immunity tested and have vaccinations updated where required. The hospital pays for this and we were told it costs around $700 per person.

If what we were told is accurate, it is a considerable expense to be rolled out to the entire population.

#18 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:16 AM

QUOTE
Unless you have a child who has a massive panic attack and the only way they can take blood is to sedate him first...


QUOTE
I don't think my 2 year old would like to have a 'simple' blood test to see is she is seroconverted.


See, this is interesting. My children have hyperimmune reactions to vaccinations. My eldest has viral psoriasis - the worst case his dermatologist has ever seen in a child his age - it's not deadly, but it's painful and socially ostracising when it flairs up. I have been told by many other parents this condition is not a good enough reason not to vaccinate him, but here people are saying their child's fear of needles (I have trypanophobia my so I really do understand what it is like) is reason enough not to verify their child's immunity?

If I said I didn't vaccinated because my child had trypanophobia, there would be an uproar on EB.

#19 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

QUOTE
If what we were told is accurate, it is a considerable expense to be rolled out to the entire population.


Perhaps if it was done on a massive scale the cost would be reduced.

Also, vaccination schemes cost a lot of money, shouldn't their efficacy be verified, particularly in small children?

#20 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

So Sif, why didn't you test your DS for whooping cough at the time? And why don't you do so now?

And it seems strange to say people aren't worried about if their kids are immune. Firstly they wanted them to be, which is why they vaccinated. And secondly the reason people get cross at those who don't vaccinate, is because their kids can pass it on to those who don't seroconvert, as well as those vulnerable babies to young to have been vaccinated. If you've given your kids the vaccine, there is not much more you can do,  so how will testing help? And how do you know if the antibodies are low, your child still couldn't produce them if exposed to the pertussis bacteria again?

#21 Sentient Puddle

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

QUOTE
shouldn't their efficacy be verified, particularly in small children?
They are - or didnt you read my post???

#22 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:23 AM

And Sif, did you just imply there is no evidence about efficacy of vaccines? And there is no ongoing research into them now?

#23 Mpjp is feral

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:24 AM

My two children who were adopted were required to prove their immunity through titer tests.

Its not terribly easy to get blood out of a screaming, distressed, traumatised child.

Sounds good in theory but the reality is not so nice. And quite expensive. Adoptive parents are required to pay.....but can you imagine birth parents being required to do the same? Who else should fund this?

#24 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:31 AM

Just because you believe in vaccination, doesn't mean you don't want to look at other methods as well. I would have thought it would mean you considered prevention in general important. Your point makes no sense to me, Madame Protart.

A quick jab into a muscle is easy, even in a wiggling kid. Getting blood out of a tiny vein, in a moving target? Not so much.

#25 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:36 AM

It is generally acknowledged the whooping cough vaccine is only about 85% effective and that a lot of infections come from the adult population who are not vaccinated.  I dont think any one is being delusional.

What is the point of all this research  - non vaxers dont believe it anyway.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

Tell us what you think

to WIN 1 of 2 $500 Coles/Myer gift cards

Dealing with a toddler's morning tantrums

Your schedule is not important to your two-year-old, and you cannot convince her otherwise. So what can you do?

Child in suitcase 'could have died eight years ago'

A child whose remains were dumped in a suitcase in the South Australian bush is believed to have been a girl aged between two-and-a-half to four.

MP breastfeeds baby during parliamentary session

An Argentinian mum and politician has caused a stir on social media after being filmed breastfeeding her baby.

My baby's first seizure

It was 1am on a cold winter's night when I woke suddenly to the screams of my 12-month-old son. Our lives were about to change forever.

Portable pools 'more dangerous than permanent ones'

Inflatable and portable children's pools may be required to be sold with compulsory fencing to prevent backyard drownings, with some experts even floating the idea of a ban.

Heartbreaking moment mum kisses her one-week-old goodbye

At 11.07am on April 2 this year, Sarah Marriott welcomed baby Sebastian into the world.

The amazing Tee Pee bed and kid-friendly Frankie Bunk bed

These kids' beds definitely fit the brief of providing personality and personal space for little people who are moving up in the world.

The funny things kids say when you're pregnant

Since becoming noticeably pregnant, my son has taken more of an interest in the sibling he'll soon have.

The real problem with having one child

In this age of political correctness, it seems the one subject still subject to discrimination is that of the Only Child.

Six-week-old baby found dead, believed stabbed

A neighbour heard a child screaming before a baby was found dead, believed to have been stabbed, in a house in Newcastle.

The fire hazard in more than 70,000 Australian homes

So far, 206 Samsung washing machines have caught fire and some have exploded. But many remain in people's homes.

How having a baby can bring on OCD

We all know that having a baby can turn your life upside down - and it can also bring a raft of new anxieties and worries.

IVF gender selection being considered for Australian parents

Couples using IVF may be able to choose the gender of their babies and women could be financially compensated for donating their eggs.

The best age to get married (according to the latest study)

Not too young, and not too old. That's reportedly the best age to get married. Not everyone agrees.

Yes, you can get pregnant before your period returns post-baby

After giving birth, the last thing you want to think about is contraception. But you can get pregnant before your period comes back.

Fellow diner rewards mum after toddler's tantrum

Parents of toddlers everywhere know the feeling. After working up the courage to take your child out for lunch or dinner in public you are rewarded with a mid-meal meltdown. 

IKEA begins massive safety campaign after two toddler deaths

Two children were killed when pieces from their Malm furniture line tipped over.

Beaneasy: sweet nursery furniture with a twist

If you're looking to introduce an organic element into your baby's nursery but want to step away from natural timber, we have the perfect alternative.

A dad's guide to hyperemesis

I am in no way qualified to advise women on how to cope with hyperemesis, but I've learnt some lessons that might be worth sharing with other partners.

Woman adopts best friend's four daughters after cancer tragedy

Best friends share everything - and for these two life-long friends, that includes family.

Baby Leo's mum excluded from $500K trust 'for her own protection'

Samuel Forrest didn't want his wife as a trustee of their baby Leo's half million dollar trust for her own "protection", it has emerged.

Confirmed: men gain weight when they become dads

Men who become fathers experience weight gain and an increase in body mass index, a measurement of body fat based on height and weight, according to a new, large-scale study

Carer investigated over washing machine photo posted 'for a laugh'

She said the photo of a boy with Down syndrome in a washing machine was taken just for fun, but no one else was laughing.

Mum's premature labour nightmare after high tea salmonella outbreak

An opulent high tea at a luxury Melbourne hotel has left 44 people with salmonella poisoning - including a pregnant woman, who went into early labour.

The day my son started a fire

Would you know what to do in a fire emergency? How safe is your home and family?

Prince George celebrates second birthday

Prince George's second birthday has been marked by the release of an official picture showing the toddler smiling as he is held by his proud beaming father.

Which beauty treatments are safe in pregnancy?

Is it safe to use fake tan, hair dye and nail varnish during pregnancy?

The five ways I know my 'baby' is no longer a baby

The truth is, I can no longer deny that my walking, babbling, somewhat-independent little miss is no longer a bona fide 'baby'.

Review: Cybex Platinum PRIAM pram

I'm not usually one who believes in love at first sight but that's exactly what happened when I first saw the Cybex PRIAM.

Get your FREE Baby & Toddler Show ticket!

Get your free ticket to the Sydney Essential Baby & Toddler Show for September 25-27 - register online now.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

Tell us what you think

to WIN 1 of 2 $500 Coles/Myer gift cards

Why I'm choosing to be a single mother right from the start

I believe that you get out of families what you put into them, and I will give mine my all.

Mother and baby units are a necessity for mental health, not a luxury

I have had two postnatal psychotic episodes. The first when my eldest child was six weeks old, and another after my second child was born.

30 French baby names

French names are always in fashion, but a few have risen in popularity in recent years.

New mum's Spanish maternity nightmare

A British woman who gave birth in Spain has told of her ordeal after spending weeks trying to convince medics the baby girl was hers.

Preparing Rover to be a good dog with baby

Some friends of ours say that it's dangerous to have a dog around a newborn and that we should start looking for a new home for him. Is it?

Company offers to ship working mums' breast milk home

First Apple and Facebook announced they would pay $20,000 towards the cost of their female employees freezing their eggs, now IBM in the US has come up with an innovative new policy aimed at retaining female employees.

Prince William speaks of his pride at wife Kate and 'little joy of heaven' Charlotte

The Duke of Cambridge opened up about family life and his plans for the future in an interview to mark his first day as an air ambulance pilot.

'Glowing' eye saves baby Mason's life

A simple photo taken in front of an evening fire gave new mother Sarah Bowers the power to save her baby's life. 

Parenting and decision overload

Of all the advice people told me before having a baby, no one warned me about the amount of decisions involved.

Proof that toddlers can't be left unsupervised - ever

Parents of toddlers all know the moment when realise your child is being suspiciously quiet. It can only mean one thing - trouble!

Meet Jeremy Ryan, The Voice contestant with seven kids

If you have trouble recalling the ages of Jeremy Ryan's seven children on The Voice, you're not alone. So does he.

Baby's adorable reaction to wearing glasses for the first time

Getting glasses can be a formative moment in a person's life.

Police officer buys supplies for family after mum of six caught shoplifting

When a mum of six was caught shoplifting nappies, clothes and shoes for her kids, the last thing she expected was for a stranger to pay for her haul.

Why pregnant women on antidepressants shouldn’t panic about birth defect claims

The risk of having uncontrolled depression is far greater than the small increased risk of birth defects that may be associated with specific antidepressants.

Arrests made over children's birthday party brawl

Police have raided properties and arrested a number of people over a brawl at a child's birthday party at a play centre in Sydney's west.

Family shares awesome drone baby announcement

Looking for a creative way to share some big news? Look to the skies, like this family did.

Young warrior Owen defies doctors' predictions

Little Owen DiCandilo's name means "young warrior", and it's a description that perfectly fits the inspiring 18-month-old

Advice for dads: when to approach your wife for sex

The exhaustion that comes with caring for young children often means romance between parents becomes a thing of the past.

I might be fat, but I don't need saving

I've been fat for pretty much most of life, besides a few crazy moments of being less-fat, but for the most part I've existed on this earth with a little more meat on my bones than desirable.

The rookie mistakes we make as parents

Since the dawn of civilisation, generation after generation of new parents have had to rely on instinct, trial and error - and sometimes get it wrong.

 

FREE TICKET

See Pinky McKay live in Sydney

Get your free ticket to The Essential Baby & Toddler Show and save $20 - register online now!

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.