Jump to content

Should post vaccination immunity be verified.
Should the Government regulate this?


  • Please log in to reply
51 replies to this topic

#1 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:42 AM

We don't vaccinate for medical reasons (amongst others, medical was only the tipping point).

So, yesterday I had a call from kinder saying a child (who is vaccinated) has been diagnosed with Whooping Cough. Mr 4 has already started antibiotics and will be back at kinder on Monday.

However, none of the other kids (all vaccinated), besides the infected child, in his group of 25 children is taking the antibiotics, because they have been vaccinated.

In the general population Whooping Cough vaccine (DTaP) has between 80-90% efficacy. So in a group of 24 vaccinated children, statically 4-5 of those children do not have enough immunity to prevent catching, and spreading the disease.

As well as this, up to 25% of all Whooping Cough cases are thought to by asymptomatic (no symptoms), and most of those cases are found in adults and vaccinated children.

So, theoretically, one of the children who is vaccinated in the group may have contracted Whooping Cough from the infected child, and will not develop symptoms but will spread the disease.

I have long believed there should be annual testing of immunity levels in the vaccinated population. This is commonly done in animals - their antibody titers are tested annually.

So, why is this not done for our children, would that not increase herd immunity? (not that I believe in herd immunity, but for all those people who do...)

If vaccinations are to be treated seriously, surely it pays to make sure children are immune. Many people find out in early pregnancy that they have not developed immunity to Rubella despite repeated immunisation, surely similar testing should be done for all vaccines!

WDYT - please try to stay on topic and resist the urge to lecture me on not vaccinating.

In case you are unclear of the question, I am asking, 'Should post-vaccination immunity levels be tested to prove immunity?'

Edited by Sif, 13 February 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#2 Harlekijn engel

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:46 AM

I think it's hard enough just to get everybody vaccinated.  To test seroconversion annually would have massive cost and compliance issues.  Not that I'm saying it would be bad, if we had endless goodwill and resources, but since we don't, I doubt we could make it work.

#3 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:50 AM

How would you test vaccination immunity?  Can this be done for all diseases in the same way as Rubella? Otherwise dont you run the risk of spreading the disease instead?

And the non-vaccinated kids still definately wont be immune, even if a few of the vaccinated kids arent

Edited by Soccer Mum, 13 February 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#4 Futureself

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

To NOT develop antibodies is the exception rather than the rule so no, I don't think annual testing is a logical option. Being aware of boosters and ensuring teens and adults are actually up to date is what is sorely needed for true herd immunity.
Having said that, in certain scenarios I probably would get DS's immunity checked to particular disease - for example Hepatitis, if travelling to areas where these diseases are prevalent.
I have more of a problem with loading my child with antibiotics every time a peer is sick quite frankly. Antibiotic overuse in the individual and in society has proven repercussions and yet...

#5 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:54 AM

What would you do differently with this information?

People that don't seroconvert, tend not to seroconvert. Vaccinated kids already get multiple doses of vaccine. If any of these kids get sick I have no doubt they would be rapidly tested, and isolated pending results.

Are you just miffed your child had to take antibiotics and the others didn't?

#6 Harlekijn engel

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:55 AM

QUOTE (Soccer Mum @ 13/02/2013, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How would you test vaccination immunity?


It's fairly simple to take a blood sample and test for the presence of antibodies.

#7 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:56 AM

Is that the case for all vaccine preventable diseases, such as whooping cough?

#8 Harlekijn engel

Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

As far as I know.  I used to do it in the lab myself as a student.

#9 Cat Burglar

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:00 AM

In that case the OP raises a very interesting point. In theory it does sound like a good idea.
but it raises a couple of other questions. If somebody isnt immune, can you just vaccinate them again?

#10 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:03 AM


Testing for seroconversion requires a blood test.  People dont like blood tests. Governmen doesnt like paying for blood tests.  Its a compliance and health economics issue.   You are unlikely to get a lot of people to agree to a blood test that will only be of benefit to a few and the gov wont want to pay for tests that will only benefit a few.

Herd immunity is a fact  - you can believe it or not.



#11 annie13

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

I don't think my 2 year old would like to have a 'simple' blood test to see if she is seroconverted. It would be a huge cost with little benefit. How would testing for conversion increase herd immunity? Higher vaccination rates and up-keeping of booster shots would be of more benefit.

Edited by annie13, 13 February 2013 - 09:10 AM.


#12 kaboo

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (Ange Vert @ 13/02/2013, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's fairly simple to take a blood sample and test for the presence of antibodies.


Unless you have a child who has a massive panic attack and the only way they can take blood is to sedate him first...

#13 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:09 AM

QUOTE
What would you do differently with this information?


Well, it might help to further research on why some people do not seroconvert, and some don't the first time, but do the second or third time.

It seems to me that many people are very complacent about this. They aren't really concerned if their child has immunity, they're merely invested in being perceived as having 'done the right thing', if their child happens to be the child who didn't seroconvert (schools contain 1000 students, that's between 100-200 students who potentially can contract and spread disease, despite having been vaccinated), then, 'Oh well, at least we vaccinated.'

I believe my son had Whooping Cough two years ago, however as I have not verified his immunity, he is on antibiotics.

#14 FiveAus

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

Rather than titre test, we should be encouraging more children to be vaccinated and more adults to be getting boosters. Herd immunity works when everyone who can be vaccinated, is. If numbers slide, diseases reappear.

#15 Tobias'smum

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:13 AM

We did testing on me for my MMR immunity  - i wasnt immune even though i had the shot 6 months earlier - i genetically dont retain immunity so i have to be careful  but like pp said its a pain - a blood test  - the wait - i was lucky it was fully covered for me but its still cost tax payers money

#16 Sentient Puddle

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE
however as I have not verified his immunity, he is on antibiotics.
Well why dont you verify that information and then he wont have to take antibiotics next time???  Oh that is right - you wont even have your children have one set of needles - but want our children to have multiple sets!!  

And by the way the Govt does do research on the efficacy of vaccination. One of my children was involved in a research study on immunisation and his levels were tested.  This is information I do have - the Govt has it too and it contributes to the understanding of things like - I dont know - herd immunity perhaps!!

#17 Threelittleducks

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:15 AM

I am looking at volunteering in a hospital. At the information seminar this week we were told that all volunteers with patient contact roles must have their immunity tested and have vaccinations updated where required. The hospital pays for this and we were told it costs around $700 per person.

If what we were told is accurate, it is a considerable expense to be rolled out to the entire population.

#18 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:16 AM

QUOTE
Unless you have a child who has a massive panic attack and the only way they can take blood is to sedate him first...


QUOTE
I don't think my 2 year old would like to have a 'simple' blood test to see is she is seroconverted.


See, this is interesting. My children have hyperimmune reactions to vaccinations. My eldest has viral psoriasis - the worst case his dermatologist has ever seen in a child his age - it's not deadly, but it's painful and socially ostracising when it flairs up. I have been told by many other parents this condition is not a good enough reason not to vaccinate him, but here people are saying their child's fear of needles (I have trypanophobia my so I really do understand what it is like) is reason enough not to verify their child's immunity?

If I said I didn't vaccinated because my child had trypanophobia, there would be an uproar on EB.

#19 Sif

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

QUOTE
If what we were told is accurate, it is a considerable expense to be rolled out to the entire population.


Perhaps if it was done on a massive scale the cost would be reduced.

Also, vaccination schemes cost a lot of money, shouldn't their efficacy be verified, particularly in small children?

#20 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

So Sif, why didn't you test your DS for whooping cough at the time? And why don't you do so now?

And it seems strange to say people aren't worried about if their kids are immune. Firstly they wanted them to be, which is why they vaccinated. And secondly the reason people get cross at those who don't vaccinate, is because their kids can pass it on to those who don't seroconvert, as well as those vulnerable babies to young to have been vaccinated. If you've given your kids the vaccine, there is not much more you can do,  so how will testing help? And how do you know if the antibodies are low, your child still couldn't produce them if exposed to the pertussis bacteria again?

#21 Sentient Puddle

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

QUOTE
shouldn't their efficacy be verified, particularly in small children?
They are - or didnt you read my post???

#22 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:23 AM

And Sif, did you just imply there is no evidence about efficacy of vaccines? And there is no ongoing research into them now?

#23 Mpjp is feral

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:24 AM

My two children who were adopted were required to prove their immunity through titer tests.

Its not terribly easy to get blood out of a screaming, distressed, traumatised child.

Sounds good in theory but the reality is not so nice. And quite expensive. Adoptive parents are required to pay.....but can you imagine birth parents being required to do the same? Who else should fund this?

#24 Red nut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:31 AM

Just because you believe in vaccination, doesn't mean you don't want to look at other methods as well. I would have thought it would mean you considered prevention in general important. Your point makes no sense to me, Madame Protart.

A quick jab into a muscle is easy, even in a wiggling kid. Getting blood out of a tiny vein, in a moving target? Not so much.

#25 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:36 AM

It is generally acknowledged the whooping cough vaccine is only about 85% effective and that a lot of infections come from the adult population who are not vaccinated.  I dont think any one is being delusional.

What is the point of all this research  - non vaxers dont believe it anyway.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

Five ways my second pregnancy is second best

As I roll into the second half of "Pregnancy: The Sequel", here is breakdown of the differences I have found thus far.

Domestic politics

Why I felt guilty about having a cleaner

Coming home to a clean house was a pleasure – and yet, I felt uneasy.

'Ugly' hearing aid ad leaves parents fuming

When Alecia Donoghue found out her baby would need hearing aids she worried about him becoming the target for schoolyard bullies.

Have you seen these missing children?

The Australian Federal Police has released the following information to locate some of Australia's missing children through the Family Law Court.

Margarita time

Keira Knightley welcomes first child

British actress Keira Knightley has become a first-time mother.

IVF patients in the dark over which clinics are least successful

Couples with fertility problems have little way of knowing which IVF clinics are the best performers despite significant differences between clinic success rates.

Couple forced to defend their decision to become parents

They met, fell in love and got married. Then, just like couples everywhere, Simon and Vicky Moore decided it was time to have a baby.

The one parenting tip that made all the difference

Amongst the useless, ill-informed advice we're given as new parents, many of us also receive nuggets of wisdom that make our lives just that little bit easier.

Five lies you tell yourself when you're pregnant

You can see it all now: glowing mumma with her gorgeous babe ... you know exactly what you're going to be like. Or perhaps you know exactly what you're not going to be like.

Family expecting fourth set of twins

A couple is expecting their fourth set of twins in five years.

The day my daughter almost drowned

We had six adults standing there, so I felt like I could relax a bit. After all, what could go wrong with so much supervision?

Sydney siege survivor names baby after victim Katrina Dawson

A Sydney barrister who survived the Lindt cafe siege has named her newborn daughter after her best friend who died in the tragedy.

The universal working mother experience

These days mothers need more than just traditional career advice.

Obama feels full force of toddler tantrum

Shopping centres, restaurants, the White House ... the list of places toddlers like to throw tantrums is endless.

Banishing bloat

How to avoid a bloated tummy

Here are some foods to eat in order to escape feeling ghastly and gassy.

The great new picture book for anxious kids

My son is a worrier by nature. I learnt long ago that it was completely pointless to say to him "Don't worry about it!".

Budget stripped more than $15b from families

The combined impact of the two budgets for low and middle income people was "devastating", new analysis by the Australian Council of Social Service shows.

Pregnant women urged to get flu shots

As the winter chill starts to arrive, NSW Health is urging pregnant women to get their flu shots.

65-year-old gives birth to quadruplets

A 65-year-old German woman, who already has 13 children, has given birth to quadruplets.

What you need to know about pregnancy and health insurance

It's not just waiting periods that couples need to consider - there are other factors to consider when thinking about health insurance.

Yummy mummy

Nicole Trunfio breastfeeds baby on Elle magazine cover

Australian model Nicole Trunfio has taken the concept of multitasking to a fashionable new level for Elle Australia.

Warnings after baby girl died while sleeping in bouncer

Parents have been warned about the dangers of letting babies sleep in bouncers and swings following the death of a three-month-old girl.

Coping with fatigue as a parent

Sleep deprivation is a real hazard of caring for a baby. But there are ways to manage the challenges of fatigue better.

A very 21st century issue: parents, parks and smart phones

It's not all the parents, and it's not all the time, but there is often at least one doing it. And sometimes, that 'one' is me.

Appliances

Faulty washing machines linked to house fires

More than 80,000 faulty Samsung washing machines pose a fire threat in homes throughout Australia despite a nationwide recall of the machines.

7 things you might not know about postnatal depression

Despite its widespread nature, there is still a great amount of mystery surrounding PND - and it's important to try unravelling as much of that as we can.

Seven questions you should be asking about your health cover

If the last time you assessed your health cover was five years ago, there?s a chance it may no longer suit your needs. To ensure it?s still right for your family, click here for seven questions to ask.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

How to use gas effectively in labour

Many women in labour don't use gas effectively and suffer more side effects than benefits. Here's how to get the most out of this pain relief option.

'He has gastro but that's okay, right?': sick kid etiquette

We cannot place all children who are sick in a bubble till they recover, but we can give other parents a choice about exposing their kids to them.

Welcome to Winter

Now that the colder months are here, Essential Baby as all the information you need for staying healthy and happy during the chilly season.

Ada Nicodemou: 'I can never be completely happy again'

Home and Away actress Ada Nicodemou has opened up about the loss of her stillborn baby.

10 things to consider when you're thinking about trying for a baby

Before you start tracking your menstrual cycle and reading up on the best positions to get pregnant, there are a few other things you may want to consider.

How special surgery and IVF can create a post-vasectomy baby

Cricket legend Glenn McGrath and his second wife Sara are expecting their first child together, thanks to IVF and a delicate surgical sperm retrieval process that helped the couple to conceive.

Belle Gibson's mother 'disgusted and embarrassed'

The mother of disgraced wellness blogger Belle Gibson has accused her daughter of lying about her childhood in an attempt to garner public sympathy.

Doctor's mobile phone 'left inside c-section mum'

A new mum claims a doctor left his mobile phone inside her after delivering her baby via caesarean section.

I'm a mum and I'm following my dreams

I want my kids to know that no matter what happens in life, you can still be who it is that you've always wanted to be.

Those first daycare days

I had this innate 'mum' moment the other day.

'If one person had listened, my life would have been so different'

Katherine's father will die in prison for the horrifying sexual abuse of his daughter. Yet she is the one with the true life sentence.

This new plan undermines breastfeeding and baby health at everyone's expense

Mothers, babies, the health system and the wider society are going to pay the price of this new budget.

Couple to celebrate terminally ill baby's birthday in unique way

Baby Jai Bishop has lived at Starship Hospital for the past seven months, with his parents flying back and forth from Hokitika, 1100km away, to be by his side.

Life On Mars

It's men who need 'retraining', not women

We are all responsible for our own behaviour. Telling victims to harden up is wrong.

Baby Gammy's dad tries to claim charity money

The biological father of baby Gammy has reportedly tried to access charity money raised for the little boy's medical costs.

Where are the childcare places?

It?s all very well to encourage women to work if they choose to, but how can the measures lead to increased workforce participation when women are once again left holding the baby?

The pain of not having babies and not knowing why

After seven years of wishing, hoping, crying, punching pillows and shouting "why me?!", the end result is more than I ever thought possible.

Getting your family finances in order

Whether you're after a new car for a growing family, a bigger house, or are just fixing up your finances, here are the basics on borrowing.

Mum shares graphic selfie to warn against tanning

A mum has shared a graphic photo of her skin cancer treatment as a warning to others.

Does parenthood make us happier?

We can certainly gain higher levels of happiness when we become parents, but the trick is to not get overwhelmed by the pressures of raising our kids.

No, having a dog is not like having a human child

It's obvious these people dote on their pets, but they're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Top baby names

Baby Names

The numbers are in and we can now bring you the 2014 top baby name list for Australia.

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.