Jump to content

Religious schools spin off


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:25 PM

This is a spin off from the topic in News about teachers at an Islamic school being forced to wear a hijab whether or not they are Muslim.

Let's say that they are allowed to enforce this, as it's within the scope of the religion, although it was pointed out by Sarah that it's not actually a "law" as such.

If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism?  I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

I admit I had a teeny bit of sympathy for the dress code thing, but I feel very strongly on creationism being taught as science anywhere.  

Is that too long a bow to draw?

I watched a great "doco" (sort of doco) on secularism the other day which some may find interesting, so here's the link - http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/atheism-critical-thinking/

Disclaimer - I mean no offense to those of any faith by posting said link!  It raises some very interesting points and is also free.  Free is good.



#2 JRA

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

I think it is a long bow to draw.

Many people are asked to wear a particular uniform be a man wearing a tie, or women expected not to wear trousers.



#3 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:28 PM

Agreed, JRA, but as Beetlebop pointed out, a hijab doesn't fall into the same category as a tie or skirt length, at least not in this little duck's view.

It's enforcing a part of that religion onto staff members who are not of that faith.  Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?



#4 Froger

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a spin off from the topic in News about teachers at an Islamic school being forced to wear a hijab whether or not they are Muslim.

Let's say that they are allowed to enforce this, as it's within the scope of the religion, although it was pointed out by Sarah that it's not actually a "law" as such.

I guess you are referring to me? Anyway, to clarify that, non-Muslims wearing hijab is not an Islamic law. Infact it is quite arguably going against Islam to require non-Muslim women to wear hejab, as hejab is meant to be an "identifying" statement of being a Muslim, and has only been made law for believers.

QUOTE
Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59


As to law in Australia, I believe that religious schools and institutions are exempt from some of the Discrimination Acts. So I'm guessing the schools can do what they want in regards to enforcing a uniform policy. But I am at a loss as to why Muslim schools want to enforce hejab for their non-Muslim female teachers. shrug.gif

Edited by SarahM72, 12 February 2013 - 09:41 PM.


#5 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:39 PM

It's an interesting point,

Coming from an atheist point of view, I hate the fact that in state schools ( nsw) the kids are given religious instruction ..as atheists we have to opt out. But I think with that argument it follows that, yes, religious schools should be able to dictate what is taught, dress codes etc ( to within reasonable legal limits of course) .


#6 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:40 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Sarah, I didn't know the details  original.gif

Lucretia - if they teach it as part of their faith then it's one thing, but I was specifically talking about it being taught as science.  That's the part I object to.



#7 BeachedAsBro

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

A friend used to work at an Islamic school and she's Catholic. She wasn't to wear short sleeves or plunging necklines, shorts or short skirts back then. She also wasn't to have non-halal food products on site. No dramas. She saved her ham sandwiches for days she wasn't working.  I see no issue with whacking a scarf over hair if that fits in with the uniform policy of the employer.

As for creationism, I went to Catholic school in the 80s and 90s and was taught the Genesis story of creation, I was also taught about the story of evolution in science class. We were widely taught that the Old Testament was stories and it was the New Testament that was the truth. Speak to a Jewish school student though and their experience will differ.

I daresay this is a media beat-up to have rednecks up in arms over the 'Islamification of Australia' and how we're 'losing our cultural identity', which is based on theft and destruction of land and culture from another community of people anyway.

A story about Muslims 'impeding' on the 'Australian' way of life is like shooting fish in a barrel. It got us talking too, so it must work.

#8 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for clarifying that, Sarah, I didn't know the details  original.gif

Lucretia - if they teach it as part of their faith then it's one thing, but I was specifically talking about it being taught as science.  That's the part I object to.

Ok, then at the risk of opening a whole can of worms here no....not if they are receiving government funding ...and maybe even if they arent? But then how do you enforce it? Funding is the big stick you wave to make sure they are complying with the curriculum ....

As for uniform...hmmm...I guess I think they can enforce a dress code..wear a hat or else, wear a tie, a headscarf.....yes, a crucifix ...I see this as less important than teaching them myth dressed up as science....


#9 Isolabella

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

QUOTE (BeachedAsBro @ 12/02/2013, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for creationism, I went to Catholic school in the 80s and 90s and was taught the Genesis story of creation, I was also taught about the story of evolution in science class.


+ 1 for 80's early 90's Genesis in Religion as a story, Evolution in Science.



#10 CourtesanNewton

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE
If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism? I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

No, but I think you'll find that very few religious schools DO teach that, I know they definitely didn't 22 years ago when I was in high school (most of the kids I was friends with went to various private schools)

OTOH some of the more fundamentalist schools in the US may be a different story, but I'm pretty sure the teachers there would be members of the relevant church and would know exactly what "science" they were expected to teach.

This is speaking as a Christian who was taught evolution by parents, school and church BTW. I did have a few kids in my class who genuinely believed the world was only 6000 years old, but they had learned that at home before ever coming to school.

#11 mummanazz

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:56 PM

I'm a Science teacher in a Catholic school. We would never teach this in Science purely because it is not in the Australian Curriculum that we have to follow.

I would say most Catholic  schools are the same.
EFS

Edited by mummanazz, 12 February 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#12 Feral_Pooks

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed, JRA, but as Beetlebop pointed out, a hijab doesn't fall into the same category as a tie or skirt length, at least not in this little duck's view.

It's enforcing a part of that religion onto staff members who are not of that faith.  Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?


I'm sorry, but I disagree. Wearing a headscarf is not any different. It's an item of clothing worn by many religions and cultures. It might not be one you're familiar with but... So what?

QUOTE (SarahM72 @ 12/02/2013, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I guess you are referring to me? Anyway, to clarify that, non-Muslims wearing hijab is not an Islamic law. Infact it is quite arguably going against Islam to require non-Muslim women to wear hejab, as hejab is meant to be an "identifying" statement of being a Muslim, and has only been made law for believers.



As to law in Australia, I believe that religious schools and institutions are exempt from some of the Discrimination Acts. So I'm guessing the schools can do what they want in regards to enforcing a uniform policy. But I am at a loss as to why Muslim schools want to enforce hejab for their non-Muslim female teachers. shrug.gif


Doesn't matter. They want to do it, they can. It can be founded in culture as much as in the letter of the holy books. I fail to see the bit in the bible about catholic school staff and students needing to wear skirts at a certain length, yet, here we are, catholic and non-catholic being asked to adhere to it without a peep.

As for teaching evolution, I'd think of it this way. In my ideal world, there would be a "base". All schools would be required to teach from that base and would get a base level of funding. If people want to do anything beyond that, they can form religious or private schools, charge accordingly to fill the "gap" and teach whatever they choose in addition to the base. I would be comfortable with schools teaching evolution and then teaching what their religion believes as well. FWIW I've not encountered "anti-evolution" or "anti-science" among Australian Muslims the way I have among certain Christian groups in this country.

#13 peking homunculus

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

The majority of Christians do not believe Creationism. It's not Catholic doctrine and is usually the preserve of the more extreme Christian denominations. I can't see many schools wanting to take this step. plus they would not be a registered school if they did not teach the curriculum, which clearly includes evolution.

I'm more concerned about the exemptions to the discrimination act for private schools that allows them to refuse enrollment or expel pregnant girls.

#14 AbbottProofFence

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:16 PM

I specifically sent my children to a non religious school because I didn't want religion being forced on them. If you choose a religious school, it's a different matter but they should be teaching the facts.

Sadly, there is not always lot of choice for parents, especially in rural areas, and you often have to pick between a mediocre public school and a decent religious school.

Edited by norageo, 08 July 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#15 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:24 PM

All good points raised in above posts.

When I attended a strict, all-girls Anglican school we were also taught the Bible in scripture classes, however evolution in science classes was treated with kid gloves and very careful language.

That was in the Dark Ages, however, possibly before Darwin published anything, which might account for it, lol.

QUOTE
Wearing a headscarf is not any different. It's an item of clothing worn by many religions and cultures. It might not be one you're familiar with but... So what?


I'm quite familiar with it, and I wasn't asking this question based on any one faith.  It's not an item of clothing worn by many religions, at least, if it is, it's a matter of personal choice.  As Sarah pointed out, it's not actual Islamic "law" to wear it, as far as I understand, which surely puts it in the realm of personal choice.

I know many devout Christians who choose not to wear a crucifix, and others who do.  I'm not singling out Islam here, it's much more about asking what can be enforced and what should be left to the individual to express as part of their faith.

I'm no ignorant redneck (no matter what some may think).  I think anyone of any faith should be free to practice their religion in any way they choose, as long as they don't enforce those choices on others.  If you want to wear a hijab, crucifix, nun's habit, burqa, yarmulke, saffron robe, Jedi cloak or anything else, then no one else has the right to tell you not to.  

I simply don't think these items of clothing should be forced upon anyone who would prefer not to wear them.  They are items strictly related to a particular faith, and I honestly don't think that they can be compared to having to wear a bus-driver's uniform, or a hairnet in the food industry or a suit and tie.

I do, however, admit that it's a very fine line.  






#16 jayskette

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:31 PM

I know for a fact that science teachers in a Catholic high school are not allowed to teach Darwin's theory.

#17 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:33 PM

Really, Jayskette, can you elaborate?  Do they just avoid the concept of evolution completely?



#18 peking homunculus

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:43 PM

It is actually just a scarf. Grace Kelly used to wear them and no one thought she was Islamic!

I do think a scarf can easily be considered part of a uniform. A head scarf is not loaded with religious symbolism as a crucifix. People can wear head scarfs without being Muslim

#19 purplekitty

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:49 PM

QUOTE (jayskette @ 12/02/2013, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know for a fact that science teachers in a Catholic high school are not allowed to teach Darwin's theory.
Then they should lose government funding because they fall below a minimum educational standard IMO.
Isn't it part of the National Curriculum? I assume it is.
How do you teach evolution without discussing Darwin and natural selection.

#20 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

peking, I do see your point, but is a headscarf at an Islamic school being touted as simply a random garment?

If it was a case of teachers supervising kids in the playground having to wear a hat to set a sun-safe example that would be different.



#21 kpingitquiet

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:20 PM

Plenty of religiously homeschooled kids are permitted to graduate in the normal way when taught not one stitch of conventional scientific fact/thought. I don't see a difference.

I just looked at the National Curriculum as posted on it's website. It appears evolution is briefly addressed in Year 10, but the word "evolution" did not appear earlier than that. I quote:

"The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of living things and is supported by a range of scientific evidence (ACSSU185)"

"They evaluate the evidence for scientific theories that explain the origin of the universe and the diversity of life on Earth. They explain the processes that underpin heredity and evolution. "

It appears there is some further mention of it in senior school sciences but I don't have the patience to sort through all those at 10 mins to midnight biggrin.gif Regardless, it doesn't appear to be a rock-solid nor weighty aspect of the national curriculum.

#22 purplekitty

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:31 PM

QUOTE (kpingitquiet @ 12/02/2013, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It appears there is some further mention of it in senior school sciences but I don't have the patience to sort through all those at 10 mins to midnight biggrin.gif Regardless, it doesn't appear to be a rock-solid nor weighty aspect of the national curriculum.
That is a major failing then.

I have no idea about homeschooling but would have thought they had to follow a curriculum as well.


#23 Guest_Sunnycat_*

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:13 AM

I said this in the other thread but wearing a hijab is not written in the Qu'ran and its not something all Muslims choose to wear, so I don't really see what the point of forcing people to wear it is for.

I don't think religion should be in public schools other than teaching it as a subject and covering many religions. Otherwise I think it should be an elective subject.

Funnily enough I remember doing catholic studies at my public school when I lived in Sydney but not when I moved to Perth.

#24 Crinkle cut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:33 AM

Wrong thread :-)

Edited by ~maryanne~, 13 February 2013 - 05:34 AM.


#25 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:46 AM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism?  I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

I admit I had a teeny bit of sympathy for the dress code thing, but I feel very strongly on creationism being taught as science anywhere.  

Is that too long a bow to draw?


I think it's too long a bow, because the issues in play are (I suspect) different.  I think it's likely that the headscarf requirement is a case of something like, "This is the standard of modesty our community finds acceptable.  This is what we are teaching/requiring of our students.  We expect you to uphold that."  

That is, to me, worlds away from tampering with the science curriculum because some fundamentalists take issue with it.  

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?


They probably wouldn't be able to (or want to) make it part of the uniform, but they do require other observances of their teachers (like leading students in prayer, and making the sign of the cross, saying the rosary, even, I think) which might be difficult if you weren't Catholic.  Again, it's about the community and its practices.

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you want to wear a hijab, crucifix, nun's habit, burqa, yarmulke, saffron robe, Jedi cloak or anything else, then no one else has the right to tell you not to.


Actually, I find the wearing of habits by those who haven't made that commitment deeply offensive (probably mostly because I've seen it in contexts like the mardi gras).  A bit like wearing a clerical collar if you're not clergy; either pretending to be something you're not, or mocking the people who are.

As an aside, I definitely remember learning about evolution in primary school...there was a big poster on the wall, I think in grade five?, with a chart of different organisms evolving over millennia.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

Tell us what you think

to WIN 1 of 2 $500 Coles/Myer gift cards

Dealing with a toddler's morning tantrums

Your schedule is not important to your two-year-old, and you cannot convince her otherwise. So what can you do?

Child in suitcase 'could have died eight years ago'

A child whose remains were dumped in a suitcase in the South Australian bush is believed to have been a girl aged between two-and-a-half to four.

MP breastfeeds baby during parliamentary session

An Argentinian mum and politician has caused a stir on social media after being filmed breastfeeding her baby.

My baby's first seizure

It was 1am on a cold winter's night when I woke suddenly to the screams of my 12-month-old son. Our lives were about to change forever.

Portable pools 'more dangerous than permanent ones'

Inflatable and portable children's pools may be required to be sold with compulsory fencing to prevent backyard drownings, with some experts even floating the idea of a ban.

Heartbreaking moment mum kisses her one-week-old goodbye

At 11.07am on April 2 this year, Sarah Marriott welcomed baby Sebastian into the world.

The amazing Tee Pee bed and kid-friendly Frankie Bunk bed

These kids' beds definitely fit the brief of providing personality and personal space for little people who are moving up in the world.

The funny things kids say when you're pregnant

Since becoming noticeably pregnant, my son has taken more of an interest in the sibling he'll soon have.

The real problem with having one child

In this age of political correctness, it seems the one subject still subject to discrimination is that of the Only Child.

Six-week-old baby found dead, believed stabbed

A neighbour heard a child screaming before a baby was found dead, believed to have been stabbed, in a house in Newcastle.

The fire hazard in more than 70,000 Australian homes

So far, 206 Samsung washing machines have caught fire and some have exploded. But many remain in people's homes.

How having a baby can bring on OCD

We all know that having a baby can turn your life upside down - and it can also bring a raft of new anxieties and worries.

IVF gender selection being considered for Australian parents

Couples using IVF may be able to choose the gender of their babies and women could be financially compensated for donating their eggs.

The best age to get married (according to the latest study)

Not too young, and not too old. That's reportedly the best age to get married. Not everyone agrees.

Yes, you can get pregnant before your period returns post-baby

After giving birth, the last thing you want to think about is contraception. But you can get pregnant before your period comes back.

Fellow diner rewards mum after toddler's tantrum

Parents of toddlers everywhere know the feeling. After working up the courage to take your child out for lunch or dinner in public you are rewarded with a mid-meal meltdown. 

IKEA begins massive safety campaign after two toddler deaths

Two children were killed when pieces from their Malm furniture line tipped over.

Beaneasy: sweet nursery furniture with a twist

If you're looking to introduce an organic element into your baby's nursery but want to step away from natural timber, we have the perfect alternative.

A dad's guide to hyperemesis

I am in no way qualified to advise women on how to cope with hyperemesis, but I've learnt some lessons that might be worth sharing with other partners.

Woman adopts best friend's four daughters after cancer tragedy

Best friends share everything - and for these two life-long friends, that includes family.

Baby Leo's mum excluded from $500K trust 'for her own protection'

Samuel Forrest didn't want his wife as a trustee of their baby Leo's half million dollar trust for her own "protection", it has emerged.

Confirmed: men gain weight when they become dads

Men who become fathers experience weight gain and an increase in body mass index, a measurement of body fat based on height and weight, according to a new, large-scale study

Carer investigated over washing machine photo posted 'for a laugh'

She said the photo of a boy with Down syndrome in a washing machine was taken just for fun, but no one else was laughing.

Mum's premature labour nightmare after high tea salmonella outbreak

An opulent high tea at a luxury Melbourne hotel has left 44 people with salmonella poisoning - including a pregnant woman, who went into early labour.

The day my son started a fire

Would you know what to do in a fire emergency? How safe is your home and family?

Prince George celebrates second birthday

Prince George's second birthday has been marked by the release of an official picture showing the toddler smiling as he is held by his proud beaming father.

Which beauty treatments are safe in pregnancy?

Is it safe to use fake tan, hair dye and nail varnish during pregnancy?

The five ways I know my 'baby' is no longer a baby

The truth is, I can no longer deny that my walking, babbling, somewhat-independent little miss is no longer a bona fide 'baby'.

Review: Cybex Platinum PRIAM pram

I'm not usually one who believes in love at first sight but that's exactly what happened when I first saw the Cybex PRIAM.

Get your FREE Baby & Toddler Show ticket!

Get your free ticket to the Sydney Essential Baby & Toddler Show for September 25-27 - register online now.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

Tell us what you think

to WIN 1 of 2 $500 Coles/Myer gift cards

Why I'm choosing to be a single mother right from the start

I believe that you get out of families what you put into them, and I will give mine my all.

Mother and baby units are a necessity for mental health, not a luxury

I have had two postnatal psychotic episodes. The first when my eldest child was six weeks old, and another after my second child was born.

30 French baby names

French names are always in fashion, but a few have risen in popularity in recent years.

New mum's Spanish maternity nightmare

A British woman who gave birth in Spain has told of her ordeal after spending weeks trying to convince medics the baby girl was hers.

Preparing Rover to be a good dog with baby

Some friends of ours say that it's dangerous to have a dog around a newborn and that we should start looking for a new home for him. Is it?

Company offers to ship working mums' breast milk home

First Apple and Facebook announced they would pay $20,000 towards the cost of their female employees freezing their eggs, now IBM in the US has come up with an innovative new policy aimed at retaining female employees.

Prince William speaks of his pride at wife Kate and 'little joy of heaven' Charlotte

The Duke of Cambridge opened up about family life and his plans for the future in an interview to mark his first day as an air ambulance pilot.

'Glowing' eye saves baby Mason's life

A simple photo taken in front of an evening fire gave new mother Sarah Bowers the power to save her baby's life. 

Parenting and decision overload

Of all the advice people told me before having a baby, no one warned me about the amount of decisions involved.

Proof that toddlers can't be left unsupervised - ever

Parents of toddlers all know the moment when realise your child is being suspiciously quiet. It can only mean one thing - trouble!

Meet Jeremy Ryan, The Voice contestant with seven kids

If you have trouble recalling the ages of Jeremy Ryan's seven children on The Voice, you're not alone. So does he.

Baby's adorable reaction to wearing glasses for the first time

Getting glasses can be a formative moment in a person's life.

Police officer buys supplies for family after mum of six caught shoplifting

When a mum of six was caught shoplifting nappies, clothes and shoes for her kids, the last thing she expected was for a stranger to pay for her haul.

Why pregnant women on antidepressants shouldn’t panic about birth defect claims

The risk of having uncontrolled depression is far greater than the small increased risk of birth defects that may be associated with specific antidepressants.

Arrests made over children's birthday party brawl

Police have raided properties and arrested a number of people over a brawl at a child's birthday party at a play centre in Sydney's west.

Family shares awesome drone baby announcement

Looking for a creative way to share some big news? Look to the skies, like this family did.

Young warrior Owen defies doctors' predictions

Little Owen DiCandilo's name means "young warrior", and it's a description that perfectly fits the inspiring 18-month-old

Advice for dads: when to approach your wife for sex

The exhaustion that comes with caring for young children often means romance between parents becomes a thing of the past.

I might be fat, but I don't need saving

I've been fat for pretty much most of life, besides a few crazy moments of being less-fat, but for the most part I've existed on this earth with a little more meat on my bones than desirable.

The rookie mistakes we make as parents

Since the dawn of civilisation, generation after generation of new parents have had to rely on instinct, trial and error - and sometimes get it wrong.

 

FREE TICKET

See Pinky McKay live in Sydney

Get your free ticket to The Essential Baby & Toddler Show and save $20 - register online now!

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.