Jump to content

Religious schools spin off


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:25 PM

This is a spin off from the topic in News about teachers at an Islamic school being forced to wear a hijab whether or not they are Muslim.

Let's say that they are allowed to enforce this, as it's within the scope of the religion, although it was pointed out by Sarah that it's not actually a "law" as such.

If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism?  I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

I admit I had a teeny bit of sympathy for the dress code thing, but I feel very strongly on creationism being taught as science anywhere.  

Is that too long a bow to draw?

I watched a great "doco" (sort of doco) on secularism the other day which some may find interesting, so here's the link - http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/atheism-critical-thinking/

Disclaimer - I mean no offense to those of any faith by posting said link!  It raises some very interesting points and is also free.  Free is good.



#2 JRA

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

I think it is a long bow to draw.

Many people are asked to wear a particular uniform be a man wearing a tie, or women expected not to wear trousers.



#3 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:28 PM

Agreed, JRA, but as Beetlebop pointed out, a hijab doesn't fall into the same category as a tie or skirt length, at least not in this little duck's view.

It's enforcing a part of that religion onto staff members who are not of that faith.  Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?



#4 Froger

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a spin off from the topic in News about teachers at an Islamic school being forced to wear a hijab whether or not they are Muslim.

Let's say that they are allowed to enforce this, as it's within the scope of the religion, although it was pointed out by Sarah that it's not actually a "law" as such.

I guess you are referring to me? Anyway, to clarify that, non-Muslims wearing hijab is not an Islamic law. Infact it is quite arguably going against Islam to require non-Muslim women to wear hejab, as hejab is meant to be an "identifying" statement of being a Muslim, and has only been made law for believers.

QUOTE
Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59


As to law in Australia, I believe that religious schools and institutions are exempt from some of the Discrimination Acts. So I'm guessing the schools can do what they want in regards to enforcing a uniform policy. But I am at a loss as to why Muslim schools want to enforce hejab for their non-Muslim female teachers. shrug.gif

Edited by SarahM72, 12 February 2013 - 09:41 PM.


#5 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:39 PM

It's an interesting point,

Coming from an atheist point of view, I hate the fact that in state schools ( nsw) the kids are given religious instruction ..as atheists we have to opt out. But I think with that argument it follows that, yes, religious schools should be able to dictate what is taught, dress codes etc ( to within reasonable legal limits of course) .


#6 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:40 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Sarah, I didn't know the details  original.gif

Lucretia - if they teach it as part of their faith then it's one thing, but I was specifically talking about it being taught as science.  That's the part I object to.



#7 BeachedAsBro

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

A friend used to work at an Islamic school and she's Catholic. She wasn't to wear short sleeves or plunging necklines, shorts or short skirts back then. She also wasn't to have non-halal food products on site. No dramas. She saved her ham sandwiches for days she wasn't working.  I see no issue with whacking a scarf over hair if that fits in with the uniform policy of the employer.

As for creationism, I went to Catholic school in the 80s and 90s and was taught the Genesis story of creation, I was also taught about the story of evolution in science class. We were widely taught that the Old Testament was stories and it was the New Testament that was the truth. Speak to a Jewish school student though and their experience will differ.

I daresay this is a media beat-up to have rednecks up in arms over the 'Islamification of Australia' and how we're 'losing our cultural identity', which is based on theft and destruction of land and culture from another community of people anyway.

A story about Muslims 'impeding' on the 'Australian' way of life is like shooting fish in a barrel. It got us talking too, so it must work.

#8 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for clarifying that, Sarah, I didn't know the details  original.gif

Lucretia - if they teach it as part of their faith then it's one thing, but I was specifically talking about it being taught as science.  That's the part I object to.

Ok, then at the risk of opening a whole can of worms here no....not if they are receiving government funding ...and maybe even if they arent? But then how do you enforce it? Funding is the big stick you wave to make sure they are complying with the curriculum ....

As for uniform...hmmm...I guess I think they can enforce a dress code..wear a hat or else, wear a tie, a headscarf.....yes, a crucifix ...I see this as less important than teaching them myth dressed up as science....


#9 Isolabella

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

QUOTE (BeachedAsBro @ 12/02/2013, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for creationism, I went to Catholic school in the 80s and 90s and was taught the Genesis story of creation, I was also taught about the story of evolution in science class.


+ 1 for 80's early 90's Genesis in Religion as a story, Evolution in Science.



#10 CourtesanNewton

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE
If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism? I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

No, but I think you'll find that very few religious schools DO teach that, I know they definitely didn't 22 years ago when I was in high school (most of the kids I was friends with went to various private schools)

OTOH some of the more fundamentalist schools in the US may be a different story, but I'm pretty sure the teachers there would be members of the relevant church and would know exactly what "science" they were expected to teach.

This is speaking as a Christian who was taught evolution by parents, school and church BTW. I did have a few kids in my class who genuinely believed the world was only 6000 years old, but they had learned that at home before ever coming to school.

#11 mummanazz

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:56 PM

I'm a Science teacher in a Catholic school. We would never teach this in Science purely because it is not in the Australian Curriculum that we have to follow.

I would say most Catholic  schools are the same.
EFS

Edited by mummanazz, 12 February 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#12 Feral_Pooks

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed, JRA, but as Beetlebop pointed out, a hijab doesn't fall into the same category as a tie or skirt length, at least not in this little duck's view.

It's enforcing a part of that religion onto staff members who are not of that faith.  Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?


I'm sorry, but I disagree. Wearing a headscarf is not any different. It's an item of clothing worn by many religions and cultures. It might not be one you're familiar with but... So what?

QUOTE (SarahM72 @ 12/02/2013, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I guess you are referring to me? Anyway, to clarify that, non-Muslims wearing hijab is not an Islamic law. Infact it is quite arguably going against Islam to require non-Muslim women to wear hejab, as hejab is meant to be an "identifying" statement of being a Muslim, and has only been made law for believers.



As to law in Australia, I believe that religious schools and institutions are exempt from some of the Discrimination Acts. So I'm guessing the schools can do what they want in regards to enforcing a uniform policy. But I am at a loss as to why Muslim schools want to enforce hejab for their non-Muslim female teachers. shrug.gif


Doesn't matter. They want to do it, they can. It can be founded in culture as much as in the letter of the holy books. I fail to see the bit in the bible about catholic school staff and students needing to wear skirts at a certain length, yet, here we are, catholic and non-catholic being asked to adhere to it without a peep.

As for teaching evolution, I'd think of it this way. In my ideal world, there would be a "base". All schools would be required to teach from that base and would get a base level of funding. If people want to do anything beyond that, they can form religious or private schools, charge accordingly to fill the "gap" and teach whatever they choose in addition to the base. I would be comfortable with schools teaching evolution and then teaching what their religion believes as well. FWIW I've not encountered "anti-evolution" or "anti-science" among Australian Muslims the way I have among certain Christian groups in this country.

#13 peking homunculus

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

The majority of Christians do not believe Creationism. It's not Catholic doctrine and is usually the preserve of the more extreme Christian denominations. I can't see many schools wanting to take this step. plus they would not be a registered school if they did not teach the curriculum, which clearly includes evolution.

I'm more concerned about the exemptions to the discrimination act for private schools that allows them to refuse enrollment or expel pregnant girls.

#14 AbbottProofFence

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:16 PM

I specifically sent my children to a non religious school because I didn't want religion being forced on them. If you choose a religious school, it's a different matter but they should be teaching the facts.

Sadly, there is not always lot of choice for parents, especially in rural areas, and you often have to pick between a mediocre public school and a decent religious school.

Edited by norageo, 08 July 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#15 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:24 PM

All good points raised in above posts.

When I attended a strict, all-girls Anglican school we were also taught the Bible in scripture classes, however evolution in science classes was treated with kid gloves and very careful language.

That was in the Dark Ages, however, possibly before Darwin published anything, which might account for it, lol.

QUOTE
Wearing a headscarf is not any different. It's an item of clothing worn by many religions and cultures. It might not be one you're familiar with but... So what?


I'm quite familiar with it, and I wasn't asking this question based on any one faith.  It's not an item of clothing worn by many religions, at least, if it is, it's a matter of personal choice.  As Sarah pointed out, it's not actual Islamic "law" to wear it, as far as I understand, which surely puts it in the realm of personal choice.

I know many devout Christians who choose not to wear a crucifix, and others who do.  I'm not singling out Islam here, it's much more about asking what can be enforced and what should be left to the individual to express as part of their faith.

I'm no ignorant redneck (no matter what some may think).  I think anyone of any faith should be free to practice their religion in any way they choose, as long as they don't enforce those choices on others.  If you want to wear a hijab, crucifix, nun's habit, burqa, yarmulke, saffron robe, Jedi cloak or anything else, then no one else has the right to tell you not to.  

I simply don't think these items of clothing should be forced upon anyone who would prefer not to wear them.  They are items strictly related to a particular faith, and I honestly don't think that they can be compared to having to wear a bus-driver's uniform, or a hairnet in the food industry or a suit and tie.

I do, however, admit that it's a very fine line.  






#16 jayskette

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:31 PM

I know for a fact that science teachers in a Catholic high school are not allowed to teach Darwin's theory.

#17 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:33 PM

Really, Jayskette, can you elaborate?  Do they just avoid the concept of evolution completely?



#18 peking homunculus

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:43 PM

It is actually just a scarf. Grace Kelly used to wear them and no one thought she was Islamic!

I do think a scarf can easily be considered part of a uniform. A head scarf is not loaded with religious symbolism as a crucifix. People can wear head scarfs without being Muslim

#19 purplekitty

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:49 PM

QUOTE (jayskette @ 12/02/2013, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know for a fact that science teachers in a Catholic high school are not allowed to teach Darwin's theory.
Then they should lose government funding because they fall below a minimum educational standard IMO.
Isn't it part of the National Curriculum? I assume it is.
How do you teach evolution without discussing Darwin and natural selection.

#20 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

peking, I do see your point, but is a headscarf at an Islamic school being touted as simply a random garment?

If it was a case of teachers supervising kids in the playground having to wear a hat to set a sun-safe example that would be different.



#21 kpingitquiet

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:20 PM

Plenty of religiously homeschooled kids are permitted to graduate in the normal way when taught not one stitch of conventional scientific fact/thought. I don't see a difference.

I just looked at the National Curriculum as posted on it's website. It appears evolution is briefly addressed in Year 10, but the word "evolution" did not appear earlier than that. I quote:

"The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of living things and is supported by a range of scientific evidence (ACSSU185)"

"They evaluate the evidence for scientific theories that explain the origin of the universe and the diversity of life on Earth. They explain the processes that underpin heredity and evolution. "

It appears there is some further mention of it in senior school sciences but I don't have the patience to sort through all those at 10 mins to midnight biggrin.gif Regardless, it doesn't appear to be a rock-solid nor weighty aspect of the national curriculum.

#22 purplekitty

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:31 PM

QUOTE (kpingitquiet @ 12/02/2013, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It appears there is some further mention of it in senior school sciences but I don't have the patience to sort through all those at 10 mins to midnight biggrin.gif Regardless, it doesn't appear to be a rock-solid nor weighty aspect of the national curriculum.
That is a major failing then.

I have no idea about homeschooling but would have thought they had to follow a curriculum as well.


#23 Guest_Sunnycat_*

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:13 AM

I said this in the other thread but wearing a hijab is not written in the Qu'ran and its not something all Muslims choose to wear, so I don't really see what the point of forcing people to wear it is for.

I don't think religion should be in public schools other than teaching it as a subject and covering many religions. Otherwise I think it should be an elective subject.

Funnily enough I remember doing catholic studies at my public school when I lived in Sydney but not when I moved to Perth.

#24 Crinkle cut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:33 AM

Wrong thread :-)

Edited by ~maryanne~, 13 February 2013 - 05:34 AM.


#25 Mitis angelam

Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:46 AM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism?  I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

I admit I had a teeny bit of sympathy for the dress code thing, but I feel very strongly on creationism being taught as science anywhere.  

Is that too long a bow to draw?


I think it's too long a bow, because the issues in play are (I suspect) different.  I think it's likely that the headscarf requirement is a case of something like, "This is the standard of modesty our community finds acceptable.  This is what we are teaching/requiring of our students.  We expect you to uphold that."  

That is, to me, worlds away from tampering with the science curriculum because some fundamentalists take issue with it.  

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?


They probably wouldn't be able to (or want to) make it part of the uniform, but they do require other observances of their teachers (like leading students in prayer, and making the sign of the cross, saying the rosary, even, I think) which might be difficult if you weren't Catholic.  Again, it's about the community and its practices.

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you want to wear a hijab, crucifix, nun's habit, burqa, yarmulke, saffron robe, Jedi cloak or anything else, then no one else has the right to tell you not to.


Actually, I find the wearing of habits by those who haven't made that commitment deeply offensive (probably mostly because I've seen it in contexts like the mardi gras).  A bit like wearing a clerical collar if you're not clergy; either pretending to be something you're not, or mocking the people who are.

As an aside, I definitely remember learning about evolution in primary school...there was a big poster on the wall, I think in grade five?, with a chart of different organisms evolving over millennia.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

Funny Father's Day cards

A little fun never goes astray when celebrating special occasions and Father's Day is no different. We've rounded up some funny Father's day cards for your husbands, fathers and other important men in your lives.

Electronic tags may keep newborns safe

The possibility of using electronic bracelets for mothers and their newborn babies is being investigated by Adelaide's Women's and Children's Hospital. 

Baby steps: when your little one starts walking

As a parent there are so many milestones to look forward to. That first smile, first word - and, of course, that first step.

Julia Watson's new book 'Breakfast, School Run, Chemo'

Tomorrow my friend Julia launches her first book. And while we're all overjoyed, the success is tinged with sadness. You see, Julia has stage 4 bowel cancer.

How not to name twins

Call me boring, but I don't think that when it comes to choosing my twins' names is the right time to use a good pun.

Fun Sunny Life pool inflatables just for babies

The babies of 2015 will thus be thrilled to paddle their happy baby legs in these brand new flamingo and swan baby inflatables.

Baby and bulldog born on the same day are best friends

When Chicago mum Ivette Ivens saw a French bulldog puppy who had the same birthdate as her son Dilan, she "just knew it?s meant to be" and took him home. Five months later, puppy Farley and Dilan are the best of friends - as Ivens says, "I?m pretty sure Dilan thinks they?re both the same species, as they walk at the same level and are both going through the stage of chewing on everything.?

Breastfeeding basics for beginners

Here are 10 tips to help make breastfeeding successful and stress free for both you and your baby as quickly as possible.

Girl smothers baby brother with peanut butter

This mum had a big clean up job on her hands.

How to hide those under eye shadows

Pandas are the only ones who benefit from under-eye shadows. If you're not fluffy and cute, you'll just look tired.

Young mum dies after being denied pap smear

A mother has died after she was denied a pap smear because she was deemed "too young" to need it.

Birthday cakes banned at childcare centre

A childcare centre in Sydney has banned birthday cakes after parent complaints about excessive sugar and children with allergies being left out.

Triplet surprise for newlyweds

As the radiographer moved the wand over her abdomen, Shelley King got the surprise of her life.

3 yummy Thermomix baby and toddler recipes

Louise Fulton Keats shares her recipes for babies and toddlers, including corn and sweet pikelets, pumpkin and pea risotto, and cheesy bunny biscuits.

Man arrested over toddler Nikki's death

A 31-year-old man has been arrested over the death of two-year-old Nikki Francis-Coslovich in Mildura.

Adoption ban on pregnant women to be lifted

Pregnant women will no longer be barred from adoption waiting lists in NSW, after the Baird Government decided the practice was discriminatory.

Are you getting enough magnesium?

Magnesium is the fourth most abundant mineral in the body, but we don't talk enough about it and the vital role it plays in great health and energy, as well as disease prevention.

5 workplace lessons for new parents

Take heart in these principles that will transfer seamlessly from the workplace into your new life as a parent.

Mums to follow on Instagram

A creative outlet for many, there are some savvy women complementing their blogs and businesses with riveting Instagrams feeds. We've chosen a few which have bucketloads of appeal; there are some big time players and some smaller local ones, and they each bring their special brand of magic to the Instagram experience.

Review: The Volvo 2015 XC90 SUV has all the safety features your family needs

The new Volvo XC90 SUV's focus on keeping you safe does not come at the expense of comfort in the XC90.

Kim Kardashian reveals she may have hysterectomy

Kim Kardashian has revealed complications during pregnancy means she might have to have a hysterectomy after the birth of her second child.

Why late night snacks wreak havoc on weight loss

 Loath as you may be to admit it, chances are that at some point you have found yourself in the kitchen late at night, devouring food.

Toddler twins pretend to be asleep to fool mum

They say twins have a unique connection. If this cute clip is anything to go by, these toddler sisters like to use their special bond to try to fool their mother.

Dad bags: 10 picks for out and about

Getting out of the house is a big priority in the early years of parenthood and you need to take a well-stocked kit with you. We've chosen 10 of the best nappy bags sure to appeal to dads in style and function.

Win a Mountain Buggy Swift

To celebrate Essential Baby reaching half a million Facebook fans, we have a Mountain Buggy Swift to giveaway to a lucky fan.

Get your FREE Baby & Toddler Show ticket!

Get your free ticket to the Sydney Essential Baby & Toddler Show for September 25-27 - register online now.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

Dads who do their share have more sex: study

For women trying to encourage their partners to take more interest in fatherhood, it could be the ultimate incentive.

Think you might have IBS, coeliac disease or Crohn's?

Conditions affecting the gastrointestinal tract are common in modern humans, and many are on the rise - including irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) and coeliac disease.

Couple poses for newborn shoot with adorable puppy

Tired of being asked about their baby-making plans, Australian couple Matt and Abby decided to give a creative answer.

The exercises you know you should be doing (but probably aren't)

I bet your to-do list today is long. But somewhere on that massive list, are you making time for your pelvic floor?

This baby really loves the family cat

Some babies get excited when mum or dad come to get them from their cot after a nap.

Designer kids clothing good enough to eat by Oeuf

Even if you aren't heading to the Northern hemisphere in the next six months, you can't help but love the amazing food-themed knits for babies and kids by cult kids brand Oeuf.

Early exposure to peanuts recommended for allergy prevention

A paediatricians' group is recommending that infants at high risk of peanut allergies be given foods containing peanuts before they turn one.

Home brand foods contain less salt than pricier rivals

Supermarket home brand foods, long derided as cheap and inferior, contain far lower levels of salt than pricier, branded rivals, new research shows.

Nannies for hire, wherever you're flying

Ever dreaded the prospect of a long flight, dreaming about how wonderful it would be for a nanny to entertain the kids?

Couple poses for newborn shoot with adorable puppy

Tired of being asked about their baby-making plans, Australian couple Matt and Abby decided to give a creative answer: with an unusual photo shoot with their 'baby', a groodle (poodle/golden retriever cross) named Humphrey. The talented Elisha from Elisha Minnette Photography caught all the precious shots.

Is it okay to name your baby with a sense of humour?

My husband was sure that Danger was a good option for a boy. And as the pregnancy progressed, it actually started to sound really good.

Woman gives birth after having her own mother's uterus transplanted

In a world first, a healthy baby has been born from the same womb that nurtured his own mother.

So hot right now: double-barrelled baby names on the rise

It's one way to make your baby stand out from the pack – giving them not one, but two first names.

Second time around: is it really better the devil you know?

When I fell pregnant with my second child I was, naturally, very excited. Then it all started to come back to me - and I freaked.

Shopping with kids: breaking the pester-power cycle

You're out shopping with your little one and they're incessantly whining that they want a treat. It's easy to say no ... the first time, at least.

How did we have babies before apps came along?

Three months ago, my wife, Chrysta, and I were driving along Melrose Avenue in Los Angeles when she let out a harrowing cry.

When your toddler disagrees

There comes a time when your child starts having different views to you. I didn't realise that time would come so soon.

Win a Pacapod this Father's Day

To celebrate dads and families, we are giving away a Picos Pack from Pacapod Australia filled with a few extra goodies ENTER NOW

 

FREE TICKET

Discover the magic of the LEGO® DUPLO® Play Area in Sydney

Get your free ticket to The Essential Baby & Toddler Show and save $20 - register online now!

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.