Jump to content

Religious schools spin off


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:25 PM

This is a spin off from the topic in News about teachers at an Islamic school being forced to wear a hijab whether or not they are Muslim.

Let's say that they are allowed to enforce this, as it's within the scope of the religion, although it was pointed out by Sarah that it's not actually a "law" as such.

If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism?  I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

I admit I had a teeny bit of sympathy for the dress code thing, but I feel very strongly on creationism being taught as science anywhere.  

Is that too long a bow to draw?

I watched a great "doco" (sort of doco) on secularism the other day which some may find interesting, so here's the link - http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/atheism-critical-thinking/

Disclaimer - I mean no offense to those of any faith by posting said link!  It raises some very interesting points and is also free.  Free is good.



#2 JRA

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

I think it is a long bow to draw.

Many people are asked to wear a particular uniform be a man wearing a tie, or women expected not to wear trousers.



#3 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:28 PM

Agreed, JRA, but as Beetlebop pointed out, a hijab doesn't fall into the same category as a tie or skirt length, at least not in this little duck's view.

It's enforcing a part of that religion onto staff members who are not of that faith.  Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?



#4 Froger

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a spin off from the topic in News about teachers at an Islamic school being forced to wear a hijab whether or not they are Muslim.

Let's say that they are allowed to enforce this, as it's within the scope of the religion, although it was pointed out by Sarah that it's not actually a "law" as such.

I guess you are referring to me? Anyway, to clarify that, non-Muslims wearing hijab is not an Islamic law. Infact it is quite arguably going against Islam to require non-Muslim women to wear hejab, as hejab is meant to be an "identifying" statement of being a Muslim, and has only been made law for believers.

QUOTE
Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59


As to law in Australia, I believe that religious schools and institutions are exempt from some of the Discrimination Acts. So I'm guessing the schools can do what they want in regards to enforcing a uniform policy. But I am at a loss as to why Muslim schools want to enforce hejab for their non-Muslim female teachers. shrug.gif

Edited by SarahM72, 12 February 2013 - 09:41 PM.


#5 Comrade Borgia

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:39 PM

It's an interesting point,

Coming from an atheist point of view, I hate the fact that in state schools ( nsw) the kids are given religious instruction ..as atheists we have to opt out. But I think with that argument it follows that, yes, religious schools should be able to dictate what is taught, dress codes etc ( to within reasonable legal limits of course) .


#6 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:40 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Sarah, I didn't know the details  original.gif

Lucretia - if they teach it as part of their faith then it's one thing, but I was specifically talking about it being taught as science.  That's the part I object to.



#7 BeachedAsBro

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

A friend used to work at an Islamic school and she's Catholic. She wasn't to wear short sleeves or plunging necklines, shorts or short skirts back then. She also wasn't to have non-halal food products on site. No dramas. She saved her ham sandwiches for days she wasn't working.  I see no issue with whacking a scarf over hair if that fits in with the uniform policy of the employer.

As for creationism, I went to Catholic school in the 80s and 90s and was taught the Genesis story of creation, I was also taught about the story of evolution in science class. We were widely taught that the Old Testament was stories and it was the New Testament that was the truth. Speak to a Jewish school student though and their experience will differ.

I daresay this is a media beat-up to have rednecks up in arms over the 'Islamification of Australia' and how we're 'losing our cultural identity', which is based on theft and destruction of land and culture from another community of people anyway.

A story about Muslims 'impeding' on the 'Australian' way of life is like shooting fish in a barrel. It got us talking too, so it must work.

#8 Comrade Borgia

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for clarifying that, Sarah, I didn't know the details  original.gif

Lucretia - if they teach it as part of their faith then it's one thing, but I was specifically talking about it being taught as science.  That's the part I object to.

Ok, then at the risk of opening a whole can of worms here no....not if they are receiving government funding ...and maybe even if they arent? But then how do you enforce it? Funding is the big stick you wave to make sure they are complying with the curriculum ....

As for uniform...hmmm...I guess I think they can enforce a dress code..wear a hat or else, wear a tie, a headscarf.....yes, a crucifix ...I see this as less important than teaching them myth dressed up as science....


#9 HIH.GD.Isolabella

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

QUOTE (BeachedAsBro @ 12/02/2013, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for creationism, I went to Catholic school in the 80s and 90s and was taught the Genesis story of creation, I was also taught about the story of evolution in science class.


+ 1 for 80's early 90's Genesis in Religion as a story, Evolution in Science.



#10 CourtesanNewton

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE
If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism? I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

No, but I think you'll find that very few religious schools DO teach that, I know they definitely didn't 22 years ago when I was in high school (most of the kids I was friends with went to various private schools)

OTOH some of the more fundamentalist schools in the US may be a different story, but I'm pretty sure the teachers there would be members of the relevant church and would know exactly what "science" they were expected to teach.

This is speaking as a Christian who was taught evolution by parents, school and church BTW. I did have a few kids in my class who genuinely believed the world was only 6000 years old, but they had learned that at home before ever coming to school.

#11 mummanazz

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:56 PM

I'm a Science teacher in a Catholic school. We would never teach this in Science purely because it is not in the Australian Curriculum that we have to follow.

I would say most Catholic  schools are the same.
EFS

Edited by mummanazz, 12 February 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#12 Feral_Pooks

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed, JRA, but as Beetlebop pointed out, a hijab doesn't fall into the same category as a tie or skirt length, at least not in this little duck's view.

It's enforcing a part of that religion onto staff members who are not of that faith.  Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?


I'm sorry, but I disagree. Wearing a headscarf is not any different. It's an item of clothing worn by many religions and cultures. It might not be one you're familiar with but... So what?

QUOTE (SarahM72 @ 12/02/2013, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I guess you are referring to me? Anyway, to clarify that, non-Muslims wearing hijab is not an Islamic law. Infact it is quite arguably going against Islam to require non-Muslim women to wear hejab, as hejab is meant to be an "identifying" statement of being a Muslim, and has only been made law for believers.



As to law in Australia, I believe that religious schools and institutions are exempt from some of the Discrimination Acts. So I'm guessing the schools can do what they want in regards to enforcing a uniform policy. But I am at a loss as to why Muslim schools want to enforce hejab for their non-Muslim female teachers. shrug.gif


Doesn't matter. They want to do it, they can. It can be founded in culture as much as in the letter of the holy books. I fail to see the bit in the bible about catholic school staff and students needing to wear skirts at a certain length, yet, here we are, catholic and non-catholic being asked to adhere to it without a peep.

As for teaching evolution, I'd think of it this way. In my ideal world, there would be a "base". All schools would be required to teach from that base and would get a base level of funding. If people want to do anything beyond that, they can form religious or private schools, charge accordingly to fill the "gap" and teach whatever they choose in addition to the base. I would be comfortable with schools teaching evolution and then teaching what their religion believes as well. FWIW I've not encountered "anti-evolution" or "anti-science" among Australian Muslims the way I have among certain Christian groups in this country.

#13 peking homunculus

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

The majority of Christians do not believe Creationism. It's not Catholic doctrine and is usually the preserve of the more extreme Christian denominations. I can't see many schools wanting to take this step. plus they would not be a registered school if they did not teach the curriculum, which clearly includes evolution.

I'm more concerned about the exemptions to the discrimination act for private schools that allows them to refuse enrollment or expel pregnant girls.

#14 AbbottProofFence

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:16 PM

I specifically sent my children to a non religious school because I didn't want religion being forced on them. If you choose a religious school, it's a different matter but they should be teaching the facts.

Sadly, there is not always lot of choice for parents, especially in rural areas, and you often have to pick between a mediocre public school and a decent religious school.

Edited by norageo, 08 July 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#15 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:24 PM

All good points raised in above posts.

When I attended a strict, all-girls Anglican school we were also taught the Bible in scripture classes, however evolution in science classes was treated with kid gloves and very careful language.

That was in the Dark Ages, however, possibly before Darwin published anything, which might account for it, lol.

QUOTE
Wearing a headscarf is not any different. It's an item of clothing worn by many religions and cultures. It might not be one you're familiar with but... So what?


I'm quite familiar with it, and I wasn't asking this question based on any one faith.  It's not an item of clothing worn by many religions, at least, if it is, it's a matter of personal choice.  As Sarah pointed out, it's not actual Islamic "law" to wear it, as far as I understand, which surely puts it in the realm of personal choice.

I know many devout Christians who choose not to wear a crucifix, and others who do.  I'm not singling out Islam here, it's much more about asking what can be enforced and what should be left to the individual to express as part of their faith.

I'm no ignorant redneck (no matter what some may think).  I think anyone of any faith should be free to practice their religion in any way they choose, as long as they don't enforce those choices on others.  If you want to wear a hijab, crucifix, nun's habit, burqa, yarmulke, saffron robe, Jedi cloak or anything else, then no one else has the right to tell you not to.  

I simply don't think these items of clothing should be forced upon anyone who would prefer not to wear them.  They are items strictly related to a particular faith, and I honestly don't think that they can be compared to having to wear a bus-driver's uniform, or a hairnet in the food industry or a suit and tie.

I do, however, admit that it's a very fine line.  






#16 jayskette

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:31 PM

I know for a fact that science teachers in a Catholic high school are not allowed to teach Darwin's theory.

#17 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:33 PM

Really, Jayskette, can you elaborate?  Do they just avoid the concept of evolution completely?



#18 peking homunculus

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:43 PM

It is actually just a scarf. Grace Kelly used to wear them and no one thought she was Islamic!

I do think a scarf can easily be considered part of a uniform. A head scarf is not loaded with religious symbolism as a crucifix. People can wear head scarfs without being Muslim

#19 purplekitty

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:49 PM

QUOTE (jayskette @ 12/02/2013, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know for a fact that science teachers in a Catholic high school are not allowed to teach Darwin's theory.
Then they should lose government funding because they fall below a minimum educational standard IMO.
Isn't it part of the National Curriculum? I assume it is.
How do you teach evolution without discussing Darwin and natural selection.

#20 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

peking, I do see your point, but is a headscarf at an Islamic school being touted as simply a random garment?

If it was a case of teachers supervising kids in the playground having to wear a hat to set a sun-safe example that would be different.



#21 kpingitquiet

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:20 PM

Plenty of religiously homeschooled kids are permitted to graduate in the normal way when taught not one stitch of conventional scientific fact/thought. I don't see a difference.

I just looked at the National Curriculum as posted on it's website. It appears evolution is briefly addressed in Year 10, but the word "evolution" did not appear earlier than that. I quote:

"The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of living things and is supported by a range of scientific evidence (ACSSU185)"

"They evaluate the evidence for scientific theories that explain the origin of the universe and the diversity of life on Earth. They explain the processes that underpin heredity and evolution. "

It appears there is some further mention of it in senior school sciences but I don't have the patience to sort through all those at 10 mins to midnight biggrin.gif Regardless, it doesn't appear to be a rock-solid nor weighty aspect of the national curriculum.

#22 purplekitty

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:31 PM

QUOTE (kpingitquiet @ 12/02/2013, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It appears there is some further mention of it in senior school sciences but I don't have the patience to sort through all those at 10 mins to midnight biggrin.gif Regardless, it doesn't appear to be a rock-solid nor weighty aspect of the national curriculum.
That is a major failing then.

I have no idea about homeschooling but would have thought they had to follow a curriculum as well.


#23 Guest_Sunnycat_*

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:13 AM

I said this in the other thread but wearing a hijab is not written in the Qu'ran and its not something all Muslims choose to wear, so I don't really see what the point of forcing people to wear it is for.

I don't think religion should be in public schools other than teaching it as a subject and covering many religions. Otherwise I think it should be an elective subject.

Funnily enough I remember doing catholic studies at my public school when I lived in Sydney but not when I moved to Perth.

#24 Crinkle cut

Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:33 AM

Wrong thread :-)

Edited by ~maryanne~, 13 February 2013 - 05:34 AM.


#25 Harlekijn engel

Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:46 AM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you agree with this do you think science teachers in faith-based schools should be "forced" to teach Creationism?  I'm not talking religious teachers, but science teachers.

I admit I had a teeny bit of sympathy for the dress code thing, but I feel very strongly on creationism being taught as science anywhere.  

Is that too long a bow to draw?


I think it's too long a bow, because the issues in play are (I suspect) different.  I think it's likely that the headscarf requirement is a case of something like, "This is the standard of modesty our community finds acceptable.  This is what we are teaching/requiring of our students.  We expect you to uphold that."  

That is, to me, worlds away from tampering with the science curriculum because some fundamentalists take issue with it.  

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would a Catholic school be allowed to make a crucifix part of staff uniform?  Would that have public support?


They probably wouldn't be able to (or want to) make it part of the uniform, but they do require other observances of their teachers (like leading students in prayer, and making the sign of the cross, saying the rosary, even, I think) which might be difficult if you weren't Catholic.  Again, it's about the community and its practices.

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 12/02/2013, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you want to wear a hijab, crucifix, nun's habit, burqa, yarmulke, saffron robe, Jedi cloak or anything else, then no one else has the right to tell you not to.


Actually, I find the wearing of habits by those who haven't made that commitment deeply offensive (probably mostly because I've seen it in contexts like the mardi gras).  A bit like wearing a clerical collar if you're not clergy; either pretending to be something you're not, or mocking the people who are.

As an aside, I definitely remember learning about evolution in primary school...there was a big poster on the wall, I think in grade five?, with a chart of different organisms evolving over millennia.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

The day my daughter almost drowned

We had six adults standing there, so I felt like I could relax a bit. After all, what could go wrong with so much supervision?

Sydney siege survivor names baby after victim Katrina Dawson

A Sydney barrister who survived the Lindt cafe siege has named her newborn daughter after her best friend who died in the tragedy.

Banishing bloat

How to avoid a bloated tummy

Here are some foods to eat in order to escape feeling ghastly and gassy.

The great new picture book for anxious kids

My son is a worrier by nature. I learnt long ago that it was completely pointless to say to him "Don't worry about it!".

Budget stripped more than $15b from families

The combined impact of the two budgets for low and middle income people was "devastating", new analysis by the Australian Council of Social Service shows.

Pregnant women urged to get flu shots

As the winter chill starts to arrive, NSW Health is urging pregnant women to get their flu shots.

65-year-old gives birth to quadruplets

A 65-year-old German woman, who already has 13 children, has given birth to quadruplets.

What you need to know about pregnancy and health insurance

It's not just waiting periods that couples need to consider - there are other factors to consider when thinking about health insurance.

Yummy mummy

Nicole Trunfio breastfeeds baby on Elle magazine cover

Australian model Nicole Trunfio has taken the concept of multitasking to a fashionable new level for Elle Australia.

Warnings after baby girl died while sleeping in bouncer

Parents have been warned about the dangers of letting babies sleep in bouncers and swings following the death of a three-month-old girl.

Coping with fatigue as a parent

Sleep deprivation is a real hazard of caring for a baby. But there are ways to manage the challenges of fatigue better.

A very 21st century issue: parents, parks and smart phones

It's not all the parents, and it's not all the time, but there is often at least one doing it. And sometimes, that 'one' is me.

Appliances

Faulty washing machines linked to house fires

More than 80,000 faulty Samsung washing machines pose a fire threat in homes throughout Australia despite a nationwide recall of the machines.

'I had a lotus birth and I loved it'

Lotus birthing is not all that common, but for a number of women it feels like the most natural thing to do.

7 things you might not know about postnatal depression

Despite its widespread nature, there is still a great amount of mystery surrounding PND - and it's important to try unravelling as much of that as we can.

Is your family's car part of the world's biggest safety recall?

More than 50 million vehicles recalled for potentially lethal airbag fault - is your car affected?

Why drinking water can be deadly for babies

H2O is one of the necessities of life, but for babies a seemingly harmless amount of water can be fatal.

Mother-in-law faceplants during proposal

He had it all planned: a romantic proposal on a windswept beach. The whole family would be there so they'd all be able to celebrate the joyous moment together.

A preschooler suddenly goes mute - and it's not just shyness

When our son stopped talking, our sense of loss was painful and acute.

The mums who ask for a 'wife bonus'

They run their homes like domestic CEOs and work tirelessly to improve their family's social standing. And now, according to a new book, they want an annual perk from their husbands.

Woman shares photo of dimple on breast to warn others of cancer risk

A widely-shared Facebook photograph of a British woman's breast has raised awareness of a more subtle breast cancer symptom.

Starting a family despite a low sperm count

"I'd never really failed a test - how could I fail this particularly manly test?"

It's official: we must better protect our kids from toxic lead exposure

New guidelines have been released, aimed at reducing children's harmful exposure to lead. But they still don't go far enough.

Trouble-shooting toddler social skills

Chances are your toddler's behaviour is all completely normal - but here's how to tackle some common social problems.

Helping your first-born welcome a sibling

We did sigh with joy at the arrival of a royal princess - but, mostly, we sighed with pity at the sight of Prince George being taken to meet her.

Farewell, daytime nap

I've been in denial and I'm not too proud to beg, but it appears I must accept the fact that you have gone. I need to let you go.

The identical triplets who are one in 50 million

The father of identical triplets born in a Texas hospital says his three daughters, including conjoined twins, are "a miracle" sent by God.

Seven questions you should be asking about your health cover

If the last time you assessed your health cover was five years ago, there?s a chance it may no longer suit your needs. To ensure it?s still right for your family, click here for seven questions to ask.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

How to use gas effectively in labour

Many women in labour don't use gas effectively and suffer more side effects than benefits. Here's how to get the most out of this pain relief option.

'He has gastro but that's okay, right?': sick kid etiquette

We cannot place all children who are sick in a bubble till they recover, but we can give other parents a choice about exposing their kids to them.

Ada Nicodemou: 'I can never be completely happy again'

Home and Away actress Ada Nicodemou has opened up about the loss of her stillborn baby.

10 things to consider when you're thinking about trying for a baby

Before you start tracking your menstrual cycle and reading up on the best positions to get pregnant, there are a few other things you may want to consider.

How special surgery and IVF can create a post-vasectomy baby

Cricket legend Glenn McGrath and his second wife Sara are expecting their first child together, thanks to IVF and a delicate surgical sperm retrieval process that helped the couple to conceive.

Belle Gibson's mother 'disgusted and embarrassed'

The mother of disgraced wellness blogger Belle Gibson has accused her daughter of lying about her childhood in an attempt to garner public sympathy.

Doctor's mobile phone 'left inside c-section mum'

A new mum claims a doctor left his mobile phone inside her after delivering her baby via caesarean section.

I'm a mum and I'm following my dreams

I want my kids to know that no matter what happens in life, you can still be who it is that you've always wanted to be.

Those first daycare days

I had this innate 'mum' moment the other day.

'If one person had listened, my life would have been so different'

Katherine's father will die in prison for the horrifying sexual abuse of his daughter. Yet she is the one with the true life sentence.

This new plan undermines breastfeeding and baby health at everyone's expense

Mothers, babies, the health system and the wider society are going to pay the price of this new budget.

Couple to celebrate terminally ill baby's birthday in unique way

Baby Jai Bishop has lived at Starship Hospital for the past seven months, with his parents flying back and forth from Hokitika, 1100km away, to be by his side.

Life On Mars

It's men who need 'retraining', not women

We are all responsible for our own behaviour. Telling victims to harden up is wrong.

Baby Gammy's dad tries to claim charity money

The biological father of baby Gammy has reportedly tried to access charity money raised for the little boy's medical costs.

Where are the childcare places?

It?s all very well to encourage women to work if they choose to, but how can the measures lead to increased workforce participation when women are once again left holding the baby?

The pain of not having babies and not knowing why

After seven years of wishing, hoping, crying, punching pillows and shouting "why me?!", the end result is more than I ever thought possible.

Getting your family finances in order

Whether you're after a new car for a growing family, a bigger house, or are just fixing up your finances, here are the basics on borrowing.

Mum shares graphic selfie to warn against tanning

A mum has shared a graphic photo of her skin cancer treatment as a warning to others.

Does parenthood make us happier?

We can certainly gain higher levels of happiness when we become parents, but the trick is to not get overwhelmed by the pressures of raising our kids.

No, having a dog is not like having a human child

It's obvious these people dote on their pets, but they're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Top baby names

Baby Names

The numbers are in and we can now bring you the 2014 top baby name list for Australia.

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.