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Toileting issues in 4.5 year old


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#1 Itchy_Witch

Posted 09 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

My son is 4.5 and just started kindy, and we are still having toileting (#2s) issues. He's never fully mastered it.
We've seen GPs, paed, CHN, Ngala, everyone we can think of for assistance.
Towar the end of last year he was really quite bad, so I had a chat to his school about our options as they require kids to be fully toilet trained to begin. To them it was pretty black and white, if he couldn't use the toilet he couldn't start.
Over the Christmas break he has seemed to master it to an extent. He can make it to the toilet for poos and everything fine, if he has no pants or jocks or anything on. H minute he has pants on, he just goes in them.
The week before school started his teacher called to see how he was doing, and I was honest and told her he was making great progress, but still had occasional accidents. She said to start him at school as planned and we'd see how he goes, but if he was having accidents we would have to have a meeting and take it from there.
His first day was Wednesday, and he had an accident. The teacher asked if wee could meet after school on Friday. I had to work, but DH could make it. We said yes, but asked if I could be involved in the conversation via phone. Long story short, we rescheduled until Wednesday next week.
Come Friday, and he had another accident. Knowing I was a work, they called DH. Unbeknownst to them, during the day DH had attempted suicide again and taken to hospital, so I had rushed home from work. I had to go to the school to clean him up, no problem.
The teacher was very short with me when I was there, I don't know, maybe thinking I made up the reason behind wanting to reschedule or whatever, it isn't doesn't really bother me.
The crux of my issue is: what can I do? I can't make DS be ready to use the toilet. Are they going to realistically want me to clean him after every accident? Or will there be some other work around solution? Can they deny him access to school until he's mastered it? I know kindy isn't compulsory, but this is a private school so I will have to pay the fees regardless of whether he attends.
It just frustrates me to no end because I know he can go to the toilet. People have said I shouldn't have told the school about his problems upfront, otherwise they would have just assumed it was a simple accident and I wouldn't be having a meeting yet, but at the time he was really bad and I didn't think he would be ok to go.
He only attends two days a week.

#2 bark

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:02 PM

Does he still fit in pull-ups?

#3 Itchy_Witch

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

He does (he's very small for his age) but when he's in them, he won't go to the toilet at all, even for wees, he just uses them as an excuse to be lazy.

#4 ekbaby

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

I'm so sorry to hear about your DH's suicide attempt- it sounds like you all have a lot going on as a family sad.gif

Do you think the stress of the situation could be having an impact on your DS's toileting? It's not uncommon for kids to regress or have toileting issues at times of higher stress.

Is the preschool aware of what is going on at home? I can understand wanting to keep things private, but maybe if they knew what was happening they would be more understanding.

Can any of the Drs/health people you have seen write a letter for the kindy explaining where he is at with toilet training, that you have been trying to address the issue (and sought help for it etc).

I would have thought that in the long term a kinder or school would not be able to discriminate/exclude on the basis of toileting needs, however a management plan might need to be in place with extra funding.. (as I don't think changing nappies is part of a teachers job) - maybe it depends if it is considered a condition as such?

#5 Kay1

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:14 PM

Have you shared with the school the issues with your DH.  Surely if they realise that you are doing everything you can about the poo issue while other stresses are happening they will be a bit more accommodating?

#6 Itchy_Witch

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:19 PM

DH's issues have been going on since before DS was born, so I don't think they could be contributing to his toileting problems? I was going to mention the issues to the teacher at the meeting (to be honest I'm not fussed about keeping it private, I'm not afraid to admit I need help when the situation arises).
I have got a letter from the paed to give to the school, but after the phone call from the teacher before school started I thought it seemed a bit pre-emotive to give it to them until we knew how he would go.
The paed says he just socially immature and will get it in time......which is the frustrating thing!
The call from the school yesterday was just the straw that broke the camels back for me - DH will be hospitalised for at least 4 weeks this time, and at a hospital 1.5 hours away, so I can only imagine the impact that alone will have on the kids.

#7 EssentialBludger

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:23 PM

My opinion won't be at all popular.

But no, I don't think he's ready for kindy. Teachers are not daycare workers, they have every right to expect a child be fully TT for school. I'm guessing you're in WA? Kindy is not compulsory, so I would keep him home until it is under control.

Next year in preprimary (compulsary) if it is still a problem, yes they can and will expect you to go and clean him up after every accident, as you should. Like I said, they're not daycare workers.

I'm very sorry about your DH.

#8 EssentialBludger

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:48 PM

Also, at the moment, the teachers probably aren't seeing them as "accidents". He's only been for 2 days, and has pooed his pants on both. He hasn't yet been a day without one, so right now they're every day occurrences.

They probably can't exclude him (at a public school anyway, don't know about private?), but surely there comes a point where the parent has to say "OK, this isn't really fair on anyone, he's probably not ready".

Because it's not really fair. On the teacher, on you who has to go and clean him up everyday, and especially on your little boy, who may become embarrassed and possibly teased.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'd be thinking very carefully about it.

#9 No-pants Agnodice

Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:56 PM

Just because your husbands issues are long term doesn't mean they're not having an impact.

#10 Itchy_Witch

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:06 PM

QUOTE (EssentialBludger @ 09/02/2013, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My opinion won't be at all popular.

But no, I don't think he's ready for kindy. Teachers are not daycare workers, they have every right to expect a child be fully TT for school. I'm guessing you're in WA? Kindy is not compulsory, so I would keep him home until it is under control.

Next year in preprimary (compulsary) if it is still a problem, yes they can and will expect you to go and clean him up after every accident, as you should. Like I said, they're not daycare workers.

I'm very sorry about your DH.


Is it really that black and white though? No shades of grey at all?
I can't help but think the problem was the fact I w upfront and honest that last year he was having problems. Otherwise they would have just attributed to being an accident, and I really don't think they'd be calling me in for a meeting this soon. I've heard other parents - DS isn't the only one in the class who has had an accident, but I think I was the only one who voiced my concerns about him before he started.
I guess if it boils down to it and it is tha black and white to the school, I'm going to have to have to pull both kids out and put them in the local public school. I can't pay the private fees indefinitely to hold his place (you have to give a terms notice to withdraw), and sending both kids to different schools isn't an option because I can't be in two places at once for drop off and pick up.



#11 snortle

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:17 PM

I am very sorry about your DH too.

I have 2 kids in kindy and I can see how busy the teachers are attending to the kids and (at our kinder at least) they really dont have time to be cleaning up accidents.

I truly understand how hard this must be. DD1 regressed in her TT and was having loads of accidents (#1s) in 3 y/o kinder. I decided to take her out and keep her home until she was ready- and according to the kinder criteria this included the child being fully TT.

It just sounds like your DS is just not ready yet. Doesn't mean theres anything wrong with him he just hasn't "got it" yet but he should in his own time unless theres an underlying medical issue.

There is no reason why you wouldn't be allowed take him out and send him straight to school next year, or even see if you can re-enroll him in term 2/3/4 when he is ready. Kindy isn't compulsary and if he isn't ready in time to use the service he may just have to give kinder a miss and go to school directly.


#12 EssentialBludger

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

QUOTE (Itchy_Witch @ 09/02/2013, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is it really that black and white though? No shades of grey at all?
I can't help but think the problem was the fact I w upfront and honest that last year he was having problems. Otherwise they would have just attributed to being an accident, and I really don't think they'd be calling me in for a meeting this soon. I've heard other parents - DS isn't the only one in the class who has had an accident, but I think I was the only one who voiced my concerns about him before he started.
I guess if it boils down to it and it is tha black and white to the school, I'm going to have to have to pull both kids out and put them in the local public school. I can't pay the private fees indefinitely to hold his place (you have to give a terms notice to withdraw), and sending both kids to different schools isn't an option because I can't be in two places at once for drop off and pick up.


I think the problem is that you DID tell them he wasn't properly TT, and he has had accidents both times he was there. They're not putting it down to "just an accident" because it's clearly not IYKWIM? It's an ongoing issue and they know that. Even if you hadn't told them previously, it wouldn't have taken them long to figure it out.

Could you send him to a daycare 1 or 2 days a week with a kindy program? My SIL did this, and then her DS just went straight to preprimary the next year. At least they're set up for incidences like this.

#13 ms flib

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:32 PM

I don't think your son is ready for 'school'. He is still young and another year at daycare etc will give him the chance to mature.

Here in Victoria in public schools, most kids go to 3 & 4 year old kinder or day care and then start prep - the end of April cut off ensures that a child your son's age can't start. Some parents like their boys to start later and will wait until they're 6.

Some kids really struggle with TT. Sometimes their physical and neurological immaturity means that they can't judge the sensations well. Maybe your son can do it without clothes because there are less physical distractions... He probably also finds new situations distracting. He just needs time.

I would re-assess especially now you have DH in hospital. I hope you can find a way - I understand that it's extremely frustrating and you are under considerable pressure.

All the best.

#14 FeralCrazyMum

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:34 PM

QUOTE (Itchy_Witch @ 09/02/2013, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is it really that black and white though? No shades of grey at all?
I can't help but think the problem was the fact I w upfront and honest that last year he was having problems. Otherwise they would have just attributed to being an accident, and I really don't think they'd be calling me in for a meeting this soon. I've heard other parents - DS isn't the only one in the class who has had an accident, but I think I was the only one who voiced my concerns about him before he started.
I guess if it boils down to it and it is tha black and white to the school, I'm going to have to have to pull both kids out and put them in the local public school. I can't pay the private fees indefinitely to hold his place (you have to give a terms notice to withdraw), and sending both kids to different schools isn't an option because I can't be in two places at once for drop off and pick up.


My bold. So if the private kindergarten won't accept him because of TT issues, you're going to send him to public school? I really don't see the logic there. If he's not ready for kindy/pre-school, he's definitely not ready for school!


#15 snortle

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE (Itchy_Witch @ 09/02/2013, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is it really that black and white though? No shades of grey at all?
I can't help but think the problem was the fact I w upfront and honest that last year he was having problems. Otherwise they would have just attributed to being an accident, and I really don't think they'd be calling me in for a meeting this soon. I've heard other parents - DS isn't the only one in the class who has had an accident, but I think I was the only one who voiced my concerns about him before he started.
I guess if it boils down to it and it is tha black and white to the school, I'm going to have to have to pull both kids out and put them in the local public school. I can't pay the private fees indefinitely to hold his place (you have to give a terms notice to withdraw), and sending both kids to different schools isn't an option because I can't be in two places at once for drop off and pick up.


In response to the part bolded- your son wasnt just having problems last year, you said in your OP he still is having problems with clothing on and you can hardly send him to kindy pantsless.

Even if you had lied or NOT told them of his TT issues they would have called you in sooner or later because your DS is currrently having these issues. They wouldn't let him go the whole year having accidents without addressing this with you. If he had an accident in the next session would it then be reasonable that they called you in? The one after? I think they are dealing with it in a reasonable manner.

#16 Itchy_Witch

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

QUOTE (CrazySingleMum @ 09/02/2013, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My bold. So if the private kindergarten won't accept him because of TT issues, you're going to send him to public school? I really don't see the logic there. If he's not ready for kindy/pre-school, he's definitely not ready for school!


My point wasn't I'd send him to the public school with his issues, my point was if he cannot attend at his current school, I can't justify paying they fees for a service I am not using. Therefore, I will have to withdraw him from the private school, which loses his place. That means there will be no place for him in the private school come pre primary, and so he will have to go to the public school then, not pull him out of the private and put him straight into the public.

#17 FeralCrazyMum

Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

Ah, I see. That's a shame, and I hope you can work something out.


#18 Mercurial

Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:01 PM

You've seen a few specialists, there's no indication of constipation or something similar?  Do you trying 'sitting' and trying after breakfast or other meals?  You may need to sit with him and read a book, sing some songs etc to allow time for things to move.

DS still soils himself regularly and is in a private school, grade one this year.  DS is old enough to take himself to the bathrooms and clean himself up, is your son able to do that?  The teachers at our school do not clean him up, but they send him to the toilet regularly (usually every 45 mins) to allow him to try.

#19 Itchy_Witch

Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

When we started seeing the paed in May, he sent us for an X-ray which showed (I apologise if TMI) a build up of feacal matter, even though he wasn't exhibiting any signs of constipation and was pooing regularly. He's on laxatives to keep him going regularly and clear out his bowels, but doc suspects his bowel was stretched by the constipation and so he didn't have the sensation of when he needed to go. Now he's been 'clean' for awhile the sensation has returned, and that's why he's able to get to the toilet in time without pants on. I just can't understand why it's different when he has the pants on. I was hoping this thread might give me some useful tips to try to get him to take that next step (which I know he can do!) but instead I just seem to be getting told he's not ready to be a school. sad.gif
I get it, he shouldn't be at school, I know what I'm expecting when I go into the meeting now. What I want to know is there anything I can do to help him take that next step to be ready?

#20 Akeyo

Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

So if kinder is not compulsory at this private school, is there any way you could pull him out (obviously forgo this term's fees) and just enrol him directly in school there next year? If not, that's full on that they insist you keep paying fees just to hold a place for FYOS. Could you possibly look at other ways of socialising him this year, as others have said, perhaps a preschool/kinder program at a daycare centre and give him some more time to get the hang of TT. Maybe even look at transferring him back to the private school after the FYOS? Not sure how the school operates though.

I do feel for you, it sounds like you are under enormous pressure, having to keep everything together for everyone else on your own. I am truly sorry to hear about your DH.

My DS1 4yrs is attending preschool (NSW) and he had to be TT to go there too. My DS2 will start there next year and I am currently having no success TT him - and although I have a whole year up our sleeve, we also have another baby on the way which I suspect is going to make the whole TT issue an even bigger one.

I wish you all the best.

#21 Itchy_Witch

Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

The school only has a maximum of 50 kids in each year level, and a waiting list. DS has had his name down since birth to secure a place, so if we pull him out we go back to the back of the list, so chances of getting a spot in the next few years are practically non existent.

#22 José

Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

I know you said youve seen everybody but have you seen a psych? Sometimes thry can help with tt.

#23 Akeyo

Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:27 PM

I see. Well I guess all you can do is go in to this meeting and see what you can negotiate with the teachers, how long they will give him as a trial period and see what you can accomplish with him at home. Every kid is so different when it comes to this stuff.

If because of his previous bowel issue, he is only just starting to get that sensation again of needing to go then in a way it sounds like he is back at square one, of relearning how to read his own body's signals. It is promising that he can go when he is pantless - perhaps when he is wearing pants, he feels secure and so that feeling overrides the need to go. How long has he been out of nappies/pull ups altogether?

#24 lafonda

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:45 AM

Sorry to hear about your DH.

Completely agree with what EB said.

I don't know what you can do to help him be ready but I hope you sort it out

#25 icekool

Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:48 AM

DS2 was stubborn with TT.
I am not sure how it is like at home but for DS2, this is what we did.

1. I used bribery. Yes, I know it is "bad" but it worked for us. I would leave a packet of lollies (ones that DS2 chooses from the supermkt) in the bathroom. So when he went, he got a lolly.
2. I TALKED about it ALL the time. He is a BIG boy now, like daddy, and he has to use the toilet. In the morning, I would say, Today you can do pee and poo in the toilet. I would talk about it alot all day.
3. I would frequently bring him in the toilet and just encourage him to go through out the day
4. For #2's, if I suspect it is coming, I would make him sit on the toilet with my iPhone or iPad and praise him even if he gets the tiniest bit. And he gets the super special lollies for #2.
5. When we are out, shops or restaurant, I would bring him to the toilet for him to get comfortable for different environments. Most of the time, he didn't go but just to make him feel comfortable.
6. I would constantly ask him if he needs to go and sometimes I get told to "stop talking"

I don't think it is about him not being ready for school at all. Some kids just take longer. I would still send him to Kinder as it is only 2 days a week.
DS2 just started Kinder 4 as well and I mentioned to the teacher that he needs prompting to go.
So she said that she will encourage him. I mentioned it upfront so they are aware of the potential accidents. I also told DS2 that all the kids in the class go to toilet and so should he. HTH in some way.

I am so sorry to hear about your husband.






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