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Child forced to get tattoo
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#1 Lady Excentrique

Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:47 AM

Just found this on the internet, now feeling rather sick and sad.

Warning, the video is upsetting: Moved by Mod


From the cheeseburger website:
Viral Video of the Day: A Toddler Gets Tattooed
A video of a crying child being forced by his own mother to get tattooed has been making the rounds on YouTube and in the blogosphere, leading to an online hunt for the woman's identity. According to the Dominican news blog Enlaesquinard, the child was being branded with the number 666, the mark of Growing in Grace International Ministry cult led by the self-proclaimed Antichrist José Luis de Jesús Miranda.
Cheeseburger link: Removed by Mod

I see that some have likened it to being Jewish and getting a circumcision. Do you think this mother deserves to be convicted? The child removed from her care?

Edited by Chelli, 30 January 2013 - 08:52 PM.
Removal of links


#2 Red Cabbage

Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

That reminds me of my child, being held down for cancer treatments.  sad.gif Exact same response.

#3 Copacetic

Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:59 AM

QUOTE
I see that some have likened it to being Jewish and getting a circumcision. Do you think this mother deserves to be convicted? The child removed from her care?


Even though it is my firm belief that circumcision is cruel and completely unecessary, this is not even the same ballpark.  Nowhere near it.  

Yes she should have her child removed from her care.  Yes she should be prosecuted.  Yes the tatooist should also be prosecuted, and the Cheezeburger people should be ashamed of giving that video air time.

They have ZERO to gain from airing that for ANYTHING other than clicks and advertising revenue.

#4 Tesseract

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:02 AM

Awful. Awful to watch.

Having said that, and I'll probably get flamed for this, but I'm a bit 'meh' to the whole thing. The Dominican Republic is a basket case of a country, rife with poverty, corruption, sex trafficking, superstition. To suggest that this child be "taken from his mother's care" is beyond farcical - I'm betting the Dominican Republic doesn't throw a hellova lot of money at child protection. The mother is young, probably poor, and in a cult - to seperate her actions from the wider context is ridiculous. These sorts of videos (as distressing as I found it to watch) going viral and having people in the West tut-tutting just makes me cringe. If you care about child abuse and child poverty then great, do something about that instead of demonising poor women who have very little agency when it comes to the 'choices' they make for their children.

#5 Monkey_Mind

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:03 AM

Maybe someone can articulate this better than me; I find these posts distasteful and never click on the links or like them. They fall into the same category as dead and bashed baby photos, inspiration porn and posts that are about people with disabilities.


IMO people post them wanting to appear to be caring but are actually getting something else out of seeing them, something like vouyerism or something a bit more twisted (this is where I need help being articulate).

I'm always sceptical about the motives of the poster of the original content, the reality of the content and the motivation behind it. Some people want a lot of likes, some want your information and I'm sure some people do it for the irony of somebody liking a post depicting abuse because they are against it.





#6 Laveaender

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

PP I get it. I've been flamed before calling it. It happens all the time in the News section, people endlessly seeking out detailed, distressing stories of child abuse (sex abuse seems to be the most favored post) or a dead child where everyone can rush in and say "fly free pretty angel - you were too good for this dirty dark world" or some other such rubbish.
I'm entirely inarticulate but I get what you're saying, completely.

#7 Copacetic

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:12 AM

I would suggest that having gone to the Cheezeburger for entertainment, the OP wasn't expecting to see what she did.  That said, I also get what the rest of you are saying.  

This however:

QUOTE
They fall into the same category as dead and bashed baby photos, inspiration porn and posts that are about people with disabilities.


Posts about people with disabilities? I understand your rant about inspiration porn... but Posts about people with disabilities? Do feel free to explain yourself.


#8 Copacetic

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:15 AM

QUOTE
Both done for religious reasons though?


I get that we have a tendancy to disagree with each other.  I really do.  But you are not suggesting that the circumcision of a newborn is the same as giving a 3 year old a tattoo?

#9 WYSIWYG

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:17 AM

It is just gross. I do not agree with it, like I do not agree with RIC, and infant ear piercing. I don't care if its because of their culture or what ever, it doesn't make it right to modify a child's body.

#10 WYSIWYG

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:18 AM

QUOTE (Copacetic @ 30/01/2013, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I get that we have a tendancy to disagree with each other.  I really do.  But you are not suggesting that the circumcision of a newborn is the same as giving a 3 year old a tattoo?

Both are modifying a child's body.

#11 Copacetic

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:23 AM

Yeah of course they are.  And I haven't ever come down on the side of circumcision.  But when you consider the cruelty of the act itself - the two aren't really comparable.  I mean, if you were forced to choose (not that you would ever BE forced to choose) you would take the circumcision over the tattoo, yes?

#12 Monkey_Mind

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:32 AM

Copacetic, when I'm talking about people with disabilities I'm talking about photos that have been stolen and fake profiles or stories that have been made up about them. Also the inspiration porn type of pics that show a picture of a person with a disability doing something that occurs in everyday life and then some condescending type on the pic saying if they can do it you can too. I find that offensive because of the ingrained discrimination of the post itself and the comments that follow (albeit well meaning, but condescending non the less).

A lot of people that I know with disabilities don't like the pats on the head and unwarranted comments from strangers about their ability or inability to do something and would rather be treated with the same dignity and respect that anyone else seems to be entitled to.

I follow a lot of disability services, news sites and local groups on Facebook and if it was,someone I knew personally and they had a support page I would most likely follow that and celebrate in their successes. I won't follow or like the aforementioned rubbish that circulates as I just find it degrading, discrimitory, not thought out, uneducated and misleading.



#13 Copacetic

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:37 AM

You know, I don't reckon we'll ever see eye to eye MP, I might just leave this discussion where it is.

Thanks for clearing that up UTD.

#14 MrsLexiK

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 30/01/2013, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Both done for religious reasons though?

But it is not always done for religious reasons

QUOTE (Copacetic @ 30/01/2013, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I get that we have a tendancy to disagree with each other. I really do. But you are not suggesting that the circumcision of a newborn is the same as giving a 3 year old a tattoo?


My DH is circ'd, I have a tattoo.  I got my tattoo when I was an adult, I knew it would hurt when it was being done I didn't realise the mofo would hurt for the rest of the day and I would have to wear thongs for the next few days.  My DH has no memory of any pain, (he was done because of the times) the babies I know who have been done for religious reasons now have cried no more or no less then any other day (I presume this is the only difference between knowing if you have hurt your newborn)

For me I can't agree they are the same thing because yes mutiliation forever has occured HOWEVER pain of the two are very different (which is also why I don't see male circ in the same eyes as female circ -which causes pain for the rest of the females life)

#15 76 others

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

I am not even going to click on it, but yes, same ballpark as circumcision.

I understand and also agree with a pp. I hate when people try to tell me gory details of crimes against kids they read in the newspaper. I don't want to hear and don't understand wanting to share it.

#16 Lady Excentrique

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (Copacetic @ 30/01/2013, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah of course they are.  And I haven't ever come down on the side of circumcision.  But when you consider the cruelty of the act itself - the two aren't really comparable.  I mean, if you were forced to choose (not that you would ever BE forced to choose) you would take the circumcision over the tattoo, yes?


The thing with the tattoo is its a 666. That's making a religious statement forever. At least no-one can see the circumcision on a day to day basis.




(this originally popped up on my FB feed through the cheeseburger website. Yes I was expecting something funny. sad.gif  )

#17 FeralAlpacasFool

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (Tesseract @ 30/01/2013, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Awful. Awful to watch.

Having said that, and I'll probably get flamed for this, but I'm a bit 'meh' to the whole thing. The Dominican Republic is a basket case of a country, rife with poverty, corruption, sex trafficking, superstition. To suggest that this child be "taken from his mother's care" is beyond farcical - I'm betting the Dominican Republic doesn't throw a hellova lot of money at child protection. The mother is young, probably poor, and in a cult - to seperate her actions from the wider context is ridiculous. These sorts of videos (as distressing as I found it to watch) going viral and having people in the West tut-tutting just makes me cringe. If you care about child abuse and child poverty then great, do something about that instead of demonising poor women who have very little agency when it comes to the 'choices' they make for their children.

Have to agree with you here.

#18 Nepheline

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:43 AM

I used to work in a tattoo shop in the UK. We used to get semi frequent requests for small tattoos on very young children. I believe it was something to do with being a Coptic Christian?? It was always a request for a cross on their wrist/hand. We of course refused!

#19 76 others

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:43 AM

Copacetic- what would you prefer to have done to yourself? To be circumcised or get a tattoo?

#20 CallMeFeral

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:47 AM

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think something done to a newborn (whether it be ear piercing, circumcision, whatever) heals up and maybe even hurts less (due to things still developing) than stuff done to a toddler and later.
I base this on the fact that 1) for the first year, my babies seemed to have wolverine like healing powers. They would scratch themselves and draw blood one day - next day there would be no scar.
2) Tongue tie correction is just a 'snip' if done at birth, a quick but anaesthetised operation at 2 (when my son got it), and I think more arduous as an adult
3) Tonsil operations are way more arduous as an adult than as a child

So yes, although I can get the circumcision/tattoo analogy, I think the age at which it's performed is relevant. And there are also people who circumcise for perceived health reasons - there is no such excuse for tattoos.

As for the original video, I think what she did is horrible, but I think that it's more worrying that there is a poor little child in a devil worshipping cult, and I worry more what worse he may be subjected to sad.gif I remember seeing a program about some children that had been abused as part of some sort of cult practices (not even a devil one) and it was horrible. How much worse will it be with something INTENDED to be evil.
I think the child should be found and removal investigated, more because of the other things he is possibly being subjected to.

#21 76 others

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (CallMeProtart @ 30/01/2013, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think something done to a newborn (whether it be ear piercing, circumcision, whatever) heals up and maybe even hurts less (due to things still developing) than stuff done to a toddler and later.
I base this on the fact that 1) for the first year, my babies seemed to have wolverine like healing powers. They would scratch themselves and draw blood one day - next day there would be no scar.
2) Tongue tie correction is just a 'snip' if done at birth, a quick but anaesthetised operation at 2 (when my son got it), and I think more arduous as an adult
3) Tonsil operations are way more arduous as an adult than as a child

So yes, although I can get the circumcision/tattoo analogy, I think the age at which it's performed is relevant. And there are also people who circumcise for perceived health reasons - there is no such excuse for tattoos.

As for the original video, I think what she did is horrible, but I think that it's more worrying that there is a poor little child in a devil worshipping cult, and I worry more what worse he may be subjected to sad.gif I remember seeing a program about some children that had been abused as part of some sort of cult practices (not even a devil one) and it was horrible. How much worse will it be with something INTENDED to be evil.
I think the child should be found and removal investigated, more because of the other things he is possibly being subjected to.


It's not just about the pain (although I know midwives are going to come in and detail what a real circumcision is like  sad.gif ), it's about modifying another person's body without their permission. Liken it to female circumcisions if you must, although male and female fall under the same category for me. Would you like your parents to have circumcised you, even though as a baby, in your opinion, it wouldn't hurt?

#22 Tesseract

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

QUOTE (CallMeProtart @ 30/01/2013, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for the original video, I think what she did is horrible, but I think that it's more worrying that there is a poor little child in a devil worshipping cult, and I worry more what worse he may be subjected to sad.gif I remember seeing a program about some children that had been abused as part of some sort of cult practices (not even a devil one) and it was horrible. How much worse will it be with something INTENDED to be evil.
I think the child should be found and removal investigated, more because of the other things he is possibly being subjected to.


Just on this point - the 'cult' referred to is actually quite a large group, spanning many countries (including the USA). They would of course argue that they are not a cult, but a religion. Where one draws the line is a bit difficult I guess...Anyway, the use of 666 and 'satanism' is not necessarily "intentionally evil" - the leader of the Growing in Grace cult argues that he is the AntiChrist, and the second coming of Christ, and that the devil is dead. I know a few 'Satanists' and they do not worship Satan, they do not believe in Satan at all, and are not 'intended to be evil'. I'm not saying that these guys aren't a cult or that cults aren't terrible, I'm just saying that putting about the label 'cult' and 'devil worshippers' is often done for political reasons more than anything else.

#23 jojonbeanie

Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE (CallMeProtart @ 30/01/2013, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think something done to a newborn (whether it be ear piercing, circumcision, whatever) heals up and maybe even hurts less (due to things still developing) than stuff done to a toddler and later.

I think adults only believe this because small babies are much easier to hold down and beat into submission. They have fewer ways to communicate and therefore their distress can be ignored.

#24 belinda1976

Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:11 AM

This thread is going to get nasty, I can feel it already  unsure.gif

#25 MrsLexiK

Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

QUOTE (Gloriosa @ 30/01/2013, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not just about the pain (although I know midwives are going to come in and detail what a real circumcision is like sad.gif ), it's about modifying another person's body without their permission. Liken it to female circumcisions if you must, although male and female fall under the same category for me. Would you like your parents to have circumcised you, even though as a baby, in your opinion, it wouldn't hurt?


I know their are grades of female circumision, are we talking the one that is painful for life because my answer would be no because not only are they modifying me they are also giving me a life of pain and a life of not enjoying sex.  My DH hasn't had that issue of pain or not enjoying sex when his parents circd him.




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