Jump to content

Huh?


  • Please log in to reply
105 replies to this topic

#1 MintyBiscuit

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:09 AM

Ok, as many of you may have noted if you've seen my various rants about various subjects over the last few weeks, I'm not what I'd call a feminist. Many have questioned why, both on EB and in real life, and I'm sure many think I'm a lunatic. But things like this are why the words feminism and feminist make me cringe

http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/...0122-2d461.html

Apparently The Very Cranky Bear is an anti-woman diatribe  huh.gif

Now, I agree that there are plenty of facets of life where we are a long way from the genders being equal, and women's rights in large areas of the world are utterly pathetic. But seriously? Do people not see that by making comments like this it makes them seem like they're reaching? There are surely better examples to illustrate a point.

Asbestos panties on, so have at it EB!


#2 cinnabubble

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:16 AM

I stopped taking you seriously when you said you weren't a feminist. The article seems eminently sane to me and I probably would have drawn the same conclusions.

#3 elizabethany

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

The article is a load of dung.  There is a big difference between raising children that are subservient and using the phrase "good girl".

If it was just the phrase, and not raising, then using the phrase "Good boy" would be equally as damaging.  But it is obviously not.

The author needs to get over her own predjudices and realise that you can be self reliant and self assured and still be a good person, irrespective of gender.

#4 gabbigirl

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

Actually I think the story is a good example of the subliminal messages we give our daughters.  

note to self - do not ever buy the very cranky bear book.

#5 PixieVee

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:23 AM

I don't think the article is saying that the book (which I've never heard of btw) is anti-woman diatribe. It's using the book to show how entrenched it is that women will be the ones to give of themselves to make men happy.

#6 Pompol

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:28 AM

QUOTE (gabbigirl @ 24/01/2013, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually I think the story is a good example of the subliminal messages we give our daughters.


This was my thought too. It's the subtext that's damaging, the constant reinforcement that women are the noble martyrs. This has been an incredibly damaging message in my life and the life of my family - especially for my mother who is forever going without, unnecessarily, to meet others' needs and is a very sad woman as a result.

I am so conscious of NOT buttonholing my daughter into the same mindset. It's a recipe for misery.



#7 stephanu

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:28 AM

In regards to the book, it's not that she's a girl sheep that makes her plain, it's that she's a sheep. It's not because it's a male bear that makes him grizzly, it's because he's a bear. How utterly ridiculous.

If you have a problem with the genders of the characters, switch them. Doesn't change the story.

#8 Cat People

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:31 AM

I don't know the book but I agree with the author of the article one billion %, so I'll take her word for it.

Girls are brought up to not make a fuss, say yes when we mean no, don't hurt anyone's feelings (especially a male!)  by giving your real opinion.  It's how women put up with sh*tty situations in employment and relationships - we've been trained and conditioned to not 'fuss' least someone thinks we're not a 'lady'.



#9 Riotproof

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:40 AM

QUOTE (PixieVee @ 24/01/2013, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think the article is saying that the book (which I've never heard of btw) is anti-woman diatribe. It's using the book to show how entrenched it is that women will be the ones to give of themselves to make men happy.

That's what I got out of it.

I don't like "good boy" either, preferring to praise behaviour instead "good listening", "thanks for being so cooperative" etc

#10 BookishOne

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Girls are brought up to not make a fuss, say yes when we mean no, don't hurt anyone's feelings (especially a male!)  by giving your real opinion.  It's how women put up with sh*tty situations in employment and relationships - we've been trained and conditioned to not 'fuss' least someone thinks we're not a 'lady'.


Really?? I was brought up to believe I should always stand up for myself, to have an opinion and not be afraid to voice it, think critically and question something if I think it is wrong / unfair etc, and to work hard to be anything I wanted to be regardless of typical gender roles.

#11 Mmmcheese

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:43 AM

The point is that is an example of just one book. When you look at all the children's books and look at the genders and what the characters do and how they behave a pattern emerges. That's not what I want my daughter hearing day in and day out. Damn right I'm thinking critically about the books that I read to her and I'm teaching her to think critically too. (At the grand old age of 21 months!) wootferretof doom linked to a really good article about how stories (movies, books, tv) influence the culture and the way people think, I'll go see if I can find the link.

#12 MintyBiscuit

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:48 AM

QUOTE (stopwhiningatme @ 24/01/2013, 09:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Saying you're not a feminist because of the rabid feminists is like saying you don't give a sh*t about the environment because of the rabid hippie living at the top of a tree in Tasmania.

You know, sometimes feminists disagree with each other.  I've disagreed with Germaine Greer plenty of times.

If you don't believe in equal rights for women, then just say so.

Oh, and I haven't read the article.


Yes, clearly I said I don't believe in women's rights  rolleyes.gif I didn't say I'm not a feminist because of articles like this, I said articles like this make me cringe at the idea of feminism. I don't consider myself a feminist for a whole number of reasons, and the rabid feminists are just a small reason.


QUOTE (gabbigirl @ 24/01/2013, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually I think the story is a good example of the subliminal messages we give our daughters.  

note to self - do not ever buy the very cranky bear book.


ok, you haven't bought it, but have you read it? It's a story about five animals, not about men and women

QUOTE (PixieVee @ 24/01/2013, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think the article is saying that the book (which I've never heard of btw) is anti-woman diatribe. It's using the book to show how entrenched it is that women will be the ones to give of themselves to make men happy.


anti-woman diatribe was definitely my wording.

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know the book but I agree with the author of the article one billion %, so I'll take her word for it.


This is the part that frustrates me. This book is one of a series about the character Bear, but it's a kids book about animals. Maybe I'm really naive (I can already tell a lot of you would think so), but I just don't see how a story about five animals can be teaching little girls to be subservient. The story would remain the same if the sheep was a boy, and for the record, the sheep isn't just doing it to appease the bear - she's doing it so her and her friends get something out of the deal (a warm cave to play in on a cold and wet day). It irks me that some people will read this article and think "bah, never buying his books" when he has written some beautiful books.



#13 Bluenomi

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:49 AM

Having read the book many times I think that article is full of crap. It's about a BEAR. He's cranky and someone helps him to not be cranky. That's it.

Next they'll be saying The Very Hungry Bear encourages eating disorders and The Very Itchy Bear encourages bad hygine.

#14 Cat People

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE (BookishOne @ 24/01/2013, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Really?? I was brought up to believe I should always stand up for myself, to have an opinion and not be afraid to voice it, think critically and question something if I think it is wrong / unfair etc, and to work hard to be anything I wanted to be regardless of typical gender roles.



And surely you are aware that is not normal?

#15 MintyBiscuit

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE (Mmmcheese @ 24/01/2013, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The point is that is an example of just one book. When you look at all the children's books and look at the genders and what the characters do and how they behave a pattern emerges. That's not what I want my daughter hearing day in and day out. Damn right I'm thinking critically about the books that I read to her and I'm teaching her to think critically too. (At the grand old age of 21 months!) wootferretof doom linked to a really good article about how stories (movies, books, tv) influence the culture and the way people think, I'll go see if I can find the link.


I think it was this one?

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-you-don...ing-your-brain/

I agree that if you don't agree with the message you shouldn't read your kids the book, and that's entirely fair enough. I just find this particular example really harsh, and a very long stretch in my mind. It's a book we've read many times to DS and he loves it, and I have honestly never considered the genders of the animals to be relevant as the story would remain exactly the same if it was a boy sheep and a girl bear.

ETA - I'll beat everyone to it - yes, the fact I don't consider the genders relevant is obviously half the problem wink.gif

Edited by HollyOllyOxenfree, 24 January 2013 - 08:51 AM.


#16 Cat People

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:55 AM

But the fact is the sheep isn't a male, and the bear isn't a female.  Why?  

And honestly, you wouldn't find it strange if there was a very cranky FEMALE bear that a male was trying to please and calm down?  It's playing right into stereotypes.

#17 MintyBiscuit

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:56 AM

Oh, I should've pointed out in my OP, I agree to a point with the idea of good girl not being something that's ideal to reiterate constantly. But I also feel the same about good boy. I don't like any language that constantly focuses on good or bad with children, I much prefer to focus on the behaviour itself.

#18 MintyBiscuit

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But the fact is the sheep isn't a male, and the bear isn't a female.  Why?  

And honestly, you wouldn't find it strange if there was a very cranky FEMALE bear that a male was trying to please and calm down?  It's playing right into stereotypes.


As I said, I barely noticed the genders. And the whole point of the book is that each animal actually tries to appease the cranky bear, male and female. And they do it to achieve their own end - somewhere warm to play. This is half my point. People who haven't read the book are now assuming it's all about this poor girl sheep desperately trying to appease this big mean bear. The way she has talked about the book in the article gives a completely false notion of the point of the story.

#19 stephanu

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

Here is how the story goes.

A group of animals enter the bears cave to escape the rain. The bear is angry because the other animals came into his cave and woke him up, so he kicks them out. The not plain animals (a zebra, lion and moose) decide that he's so cranky because he's not interesting looking, like they are. So they sneak in to his cave and give him a makeover to look like them. This makes him even crankier. He's tired and wants to sleep.  He doesn't care how he looks. So the sheep fashions him a pillow, and he's so grateful he lets them play in his cave.

#20 SlinkyMalinki

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

I relate more to the bear this week.

#21 Mmmcheese

Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

Yep, that's the one. We still read the books, but I point out it's more often the girls that make peace in the situation. Or that we have heaps of books with lots of boys in them, why aren't there more stories with girls in them.



#22 BadCat

Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:05 AM

I'm partly with you OP.

I will often not refer to myself as a feminist because of the loony fringe.  I am, however, a feminist.  It depends on the company I'm in whether I am willing to use the term.  With my brothers for example, a feminist is nothing more than a lesbian with hairy armpits wearing bib overalls and abusing menfolk as they wander harmlessly past.  (Yes, I come from a dodgy family).   With DH I can refer to myself as a feminist because he gets it.

The business about the book is bunk as far as I'm concerned.

And the bit about saying good girl?  Well surely it's all about context.  IF you tell your daughter she's a good girl every time she sacrifices something but not when she achieves something then of course you're teaching her the wrong thing.  But I hardly think by saying good girl to your child who was just done her first poop in the toilet you are setting her up for a life of subservience.

It doesn't have to be a rigid script.  It just calls for a little thought about how you are using words.  It's the same as telling a girl she looks pretty.  It she's dressed up for an occassion then it's fine, but if it's your go to comment whenever you see her then you need to dig a little deeper and see the person inside.

#23 bebe12

Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:09 AM

Hi,

Firstly of course its a girl sheep- otherwise it would be a ram. If you go to a farm sheep are female and rams keep separate.

If you choose to teach your girls that there only role is to put themselves last that is what they learn.

I have a DD and now DS neither will be told its ok to put themselves last, but when making decision they should consider the impact they have on others regardless of gender.

My DD going in to Year 7 is told she can be what ever she wants to be - Her role models are doctors, scientist, engineers, lawyers, teachers, marketers etc. And these role models are her parents, grandparents and aunts and uncles. She also can look up to anyone she finds out about.

They learn what we model. We currently have a female PM. So the good girl role this reporter is on about is her own hang up.

But just my reaction to the article.

#24 FeralBob!

Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:28 AM

You can be a feminist and still have issues with strands of feminist philosophy. I am. FWIW, I've always had issues with the concept of all women being oppressed by all men, because it completely sidelines the class issue and ignores the fact that while someone like Gina Rinehart is oppressed because she's female, she's still a whole lot less oppressed that the woman who cleans her office at 3am.

But I will still call myself a feminist, because I believe in women's liberation.

#25 Jane Jetson

Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:28 AM

I am tired of always having to disassociate myself from the media construct of the "loony fringe" every time I say I'm a feminist. If more of us just identified as feminists perhaps we could erode the unshaven lesbian separatist image, rather than half of us claiming we're not feminist (which is basically laying a claim to not supporting women's rights to an equal share of life) and the other half saying we are BUT and then feeding straight back into the stereotype.

I think the article makes a good point, and that there are subliminal messages all over the shop that reinforce women's role as the nurturer and the self-sacrificing one. (Who posted that excellent blog about Beauty and the Beast the other day? That was great.) I wish the author had mentioned more than just one children's book, because now everyone's going to just pick apart her critique of this one specific book.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

Special offer: The Baby & Toddler Show 2014

At The Baby & Toddler Show, you?ll find everything you need to get ready for your new arrival and guide you through the early weeks and years of parenting.

The 'no children' wedding invite

It was the wedding of one of my oldest and dearest friends, and she had invited me to be her bridesmaid. It was quite an honour. But there was one problem.

Baby Dylan recovering well after spending five days alone

 For up to five days he lay alone after his mother died of a suspected drug overdose, but eight-month-old Dylan Micallef has made an incredible recovery.

The mystery of William Tyrell, little boy lost

The question remains: How does a little boy simply vanish without a trace?

Woman fights off robber, then gives birth

A thief in the US got more than he bargained for when he try to rob a woman who was nine months pregnant because he figured she would be an easy target.

Video: Two-year-old tells mum off for laughing at her

This little girl is not happy that her mum started laughing during her performance - so she tells her exactly how she feels about it.

Coping with a bolter

My 15-month-old has suddenly added a burst of real speed to her toddle. She should be classed a flight risk.

Single, 51 and pregnant

Tracey Kahn didn't realise she wanted to become a mother until she was well into her 40s. Now 51, she is pregnant with her second child.

An open letter to Tony Abbott: please salvage our super

We face financial ruin, but most of us don?t realise it. If we don?t act together to salvage our superannuation, I have no doubt the new GFC will be the Girls? Financial Crisis.

'I'm happy to know I'm changing lives': surrogate mum of two

I know that once the baby is born, I will focus on the gift I have given, and watch the parents with their new child. I can't wait for that day.

Birth trauma and the issue of informed consent

There is a perception that women should just be happy they have a healthy baby in their arms. But for women who experienced birth trauma, there's a lot more to it.

Tips for managing pollen allergies and hayfever

They're simple tips, but they can have a big impact on those who suffer from hayfever and pollen allergies.

Ada Nicodemou shares tribute to her stillborn baby

Just over one month since Ada Nicodemou and her husband lost their second son, the Home and Away star has shared a touching poem for her baby.

Mum causes stir breastfeeding on train

?To the woman breastfeeding her kid on the train. Seriously! On the train?" began the letter of complaint.

10 things they don?t tell you about being pregnant

As I slowly waddle my ever-changing pregnant body towards the finishing line of my due date, it?s becoming increasingly clear there are a lot of things they just don?t tell you about pregnancy.

Overcoming a fear of the dark

A toddler's fear of the dark is very normal, but there are ways parents can help children through this stage in their development.

Kids, TV and movies: how young is too young?

It seems you don't have to throw the TV and iPad out the window - it all boils down to moderation, supervision and interaction.

Video: Baby's first birthday is a special day for mum, too

?A baby?s first birthday is also mum?s first birthday.?

The day Supernanny came to tea

Prince William's favourite celebrity child trainer Jo Frost puts Bryony Gordon and her toddler through their paces.

The words I hated hearing as new mum

It was less than a week after my son was born that I first heard it - from my mother.

To the pharmacist who sold me baby formula

On the rare occasion I catch sight of you at school, or around town, I think back to our earliest exchange. I?m sure you have no recollection of it at all.

Download now: Essential Kids Activity Finder app

Got bored kids? Quickly find the best activities for kids wherever you are in Australia with the Essential Kids app.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

Special offer: The Baby & Toddler Show 2014

At The Baby & Toddler Show, you?ll find everything you need to get ready for your new arrival and guide you through the early weeks and years of parenting.

Losing yourself to motherhood

While watching your baby grow into a unique little person is exciting and wondrous, the intensity of meeting everyone else?s needs can ever so sneakily overtake your own needs for self-care.

Tearing during delivery: the facts

Almost all women will experience bruising, grazing or tearing after a vaginal birth. Depending on the degree of tearing, there are various treatments available.

6 tips for a day out with a baby and toddler

Outings can be lots of fun with the kids, but there are inevitable challenges. Here's some information about days out to help you be a little more prepared.

Why I invited a dozen people to watch my son's birth

I sent invitations on burgundy scrapbooking paper stamped with a field of poppies, and told each person why I wanted him or her there. I warned that there would be nudity.

Getting labour started: tips for a natural induction

When your baby?s due date comes and goes without so much as a pop - let alone a bang - it can be disheartening. Mums and a doula share their stories of natural inductions.

7 mistakes old hands make with new babies

As I sat across the table from my friend ? me, a seasoned mother of three; her, a brand new mum ? I thought of all the mistakes an old-hand parent can make when visiting a newborn baby.

That's my boy: a dad's diary of the first 4 months

Unbearable anxiety, unspeakable joy, constant exhaustion and bouts of frustration ... The many shocks of first-time fatherhood resound in a dad's diary of his son's early months.

One of the most important things a new mum can do

Finances may not be as cute as a newborn, but with many women?s working arrangements changing post-baby, monetary matters need attention too.

The 'no children' wedding invite

"It's her wedding, so the day is all about her, not your baby." How major fall-out can occur over a simple wedding invitation.

Personalised baby gifts

We've scoured the internet to find gorgeous personalised keepsakes and nursery decor to record baby name and dates. They make great gifts for christenings, name days and birthdays! (All prices in AU.)

 

Reader offer

2 FOR 1 TICKET OFFER

For Shopping, For Advice, For Baby & You. Enjoy a special day out with fabulous shopping from over 200 brands, leading parenting experts offering advice on a range of topics, and amazing children?s entertainment

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.