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I was wrong
Control crying


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#1 WinterIsComing

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

I was wrong. I never did do control crying despite my son's sleeping problems (or rather, expected infant behaviour). I swore I would teach him to sleep after 6 months, but turns out when the baby can communicate their emotions with somewhat grown up proficiency, and instead of newborn shrill, give you really desperate, heaving, choking sobs, it feels so much more cruel to let them cry! So we never did.

He is 12 months now, and sleeps soundly for most of the night - next to me. Even co-sleeping wasnt a magic bullet, it just made feeding and resettling during the night easier, but seems that progression of time has been slowly doing its work.

So I just wanted to get it out there, it was pretty short-sighted of me to be pro-CC for older children, before I got there myself! Sorry if I offended anyone. CC sucks.

Now, if only people in real life stopped commenting on my "spoling" him. He is such a happy, outgoing, social child who is a delight to have around - including in restaurants - can't they put two and two together and figure out he doesn't need any fixing?

#2 Excentrique Feral

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

Sometimes you can do CC on your kids, and they will still be shocking sleepers.

Some people are born insomniacs.  sad.gif

#3 sedawson

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

I'm having a hard time understanding your post. You've never done controlled crying with your son who is now 12 months? So what were you wrong about?

Also I co-slept until recently, when I found out that there were 19 infant deaths in my state that were inferentially attributed to co-sleeping. There were no other obvious contributing factors. Since then I've made the extra effort to keep my son in his cot overnight, and we're actually both sleeping better.



#4 IsolaBella

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:24 PM

Being 7m PG having a 20mo who takes 3hrs to get to sleep with you sitting beside them patting them to sleep and realising you will basically not see DH for the first 3-4m post new bubs birth, you realise something has to give (as with a NB you will not be able to devote the three hours plus at night to your eldest.

You and they must learn very quickly.

Also learned for the subsequent bus at 8-12wks of age to teach them to settle to sleep without holding (ie. patting them gently until no longer required), plus learning to distinguish between a self grizzle and upset cry.



#5 Riotproof

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:24 PM

I once heard someone say, "it's so much harder once they start calling out mummy, it makes you think thy really need you". I pointed out that they can express they need you from the minute they are born, just not with words.

As a bit of hope for you, ds really improved post 12 months.

#6 WinterIsComing

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

QUOTE (sedawson @ 23/01/2013, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm having a hard time understanding your post. You've never done controlled crying with your son who is now 12 months? So what were you wrong about?

Also I co-slept until recently, when I found out that there were 19 infant deaths in my state that were inferentially attributed to co-sleeping. There were no other obvious contributing factors. Since then I've made the extra effort to keep my son in his cot overnight, and we're actually both sleeping better.



My post was in realtion to a few highly spirited debates here on EB, around 7-8 months ago, when my DS was little.

I didn't co-sleep regularly (in our bed) until he was 9 months due to the risks you were talking about. However, in two months prior, we did a lot of travelling where he co-slept with me on flat, firm hotel beds pushed against the wall, with great success - so once we returned home, we started co-sleeping. He was very mobile then, I wasn't worried.

#7 sedawson

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

QUOTE (WinterIsComing @ 23/01/2013, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
However, in two months prior, we did a lot of travelling where he co-slept with me on flat, firm hotel beds pushed against the wall, with great success - so once we returned home, we started co-sleeping. He was very mobile then, I wasn't worried.



Ah, no worries. I'm a great believer in Managing With What's Around, so sharing a bed while travelling just makes sense.


I was thrilled to get my son out of my bed, though, he's a constant kicker. Got a kick like a mule. Awful.






#8 PigNewton

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:34 PM

QUOTE
However, in two months prior, we did a lot of travelling where he co-slept with me on flat, firm hotel beds pushed against the wall, with great success - so once we returned home, we started co-sleeping. He was very mobile then, I wasn't worried


Yeah, that part is fair enough. But saying CC sucks when you didn't actually do it is a little odd. Perhaps "Controlled Crying wasn't the way we ended up going" would be a little more accurate?
It would be like me saying "Attachment Parenting SUCKS" when I never did it (and I have no issue with AP)

ETA or better example, me saying "Cosleeping sucks" when we did actually do it, but DS is a rotten co-sleeper and it doesn't suit him

Edited by redkris, 23 January 2013 - 01:37 PM.


#9 CallMeFeral

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:36 PM

I don't remember your posts, but I think it's big of you to say you were wrong.

So much stuff is so easy to be judgemental about before you have kids - and even when you haven't had kids with those specific issues.
This has been my biggest parenthood realisation!

#10 Tesseract

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

WinterIsComing I actually remember your pro-CC posts, they stood out because I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say. Even if you can be a bit...blunt wink.gif which I kind of like anyway.

Interestingly I have sort of gone the other way. I always been in favour of only extremely gentle, totally responsive methods. But at 14 months DD was waking 6+ times a night, I was working full time, and nearly had a mental breakdown from sleep deprivation. I night weaned her over a week. As gently and lovingly as I could, but she was very unhappy and cried (but not on her own).

I'm still totally pro-gentle methods, but I have recognised that sometimes families need to weigh up the risks and benefits. And it's not for me to say when another family has reached that point. I just hope that every family makes the decision with full information.

#11 Cat People

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:38 PM

QUOTE (sedawson @ 23/01/2013, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also I co-slept until recently, when I found out that there were 19 infant deaths in my state that were inferentially attributed to co-sleeping. There were no other obvious contributing factors. Since then I've made the extra effort to keep my son in his cot overnight, and we're actually both sleeping better.



Can you give additional information?  Over what period of time?  I don't believe there were no other factors.  Unfortunately all sorts of unsafe sleeping is called co-sleeping eg sleeping on a couch, drug-affected parent, etc, etc.

OP, when I was pregnant I said I would use CC too.  I thought it sounded like a very reasonable and easy solution to sleep problems.

#12 WinterIsComing

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE (redkris @ 23/01/2013, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, that part is fair enough. But saying CC sucks when you didn't actually do it is a little odd. Perhaps "Controlled Crying wasn't the way we ended up going" would be a little more accurate?
It would be like me saying "Attachment Parenting SUCKS" when I never did it (and I have no issue with AP)

ETA or better example, me saying "Cosleeping sucks" when we did actually do it, but DS is a rotten co-sleeper and it doesn't suit him


I meant I personally found it awful and gut-wrenching, however little I attempted to do it. I don't think anyone would enjoy it anyway, even if it quickly works for someone, they would most likely find it very upsetting, regardless! But yeah, I totally can imagine situations where the risks of NOT doing it outweigh the cons. I was lucky that the prolonged sleep deprivation I experienced didn't affect my mental health.


QUOTE (Tesseract @ 23/01/2013, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
WinterIsComing I actually remember your pro-CC posts, they stood out because I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say. Even if you can be a bit...blunt wink.gif which I kind of like anyway.

Interestingly I have sort of gone the other way. I always been in favour of only extremely gentle, totally responsive methods. But at 14 months DD was waking 6+ times a night, I was working full time, and nearly had a mental breakdown from sleep deprivation. I night weaned her over a week. As gently and lovingly as I could, but she was very unhappy and cried (but not on her own).

I'm still totally pro-gentle methods, but I have recognised that sometimes families need to weigh up the risks and benefits. And it's not for me to say when another family has reached that point. I just hope that every family makes the decision with full information.



I think night weaning gradually, after 12 months, still falls under gentle methods? original.gif I've been thinking about it, but DS only normally feeds around 11 pm and then 5 am, so I am cool with that for now - at least, until he is properly eating solids.



#13 Mummy Em

Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

I <3 this thread.

QUOTE (Tesseract @ 23/01/2013, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
WinterIsComing I actually remember your pro-CC posts, they stood out because I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say. Even if you can be a bit...blunt wink.gif which I kind of like anyway.

Interestingly I have sort of gone the other way. I always been in favour of only extremely gentle, totally responsive methods. But at 14 months DD was waking 6+ times a night, I was working full time, and nearly had a mental breakdown from sleep deprivation. I night weaned her over a week. As gently and lovingly as I could, but she was very unhappy and cried (but not on her own).

I'm still totally pro-gentle methods, but I have recognised that sometimes families need to weigh up the risks and benefits. And it's not for me to say when another family has reached that point. I just hope that every family makes the decision with full information.


My dd2 is nearly 14 months and we will be doing this very soon, too. I hate it, but I will be there to hold her so all will be well.

#14 Feral_Pooks

Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:56 PM

QUOTE (Tesseract @ 23/01/2013, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm still totally pro-gentle methods, but I have recognised that sometimes families need to weigh up the risks and benefits. And it's not for me to say when another family has reached that point. I just hope that every family makes the decision with full information.


This sums up my position exactly.

#15 Spring Chickadee

Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

QUOTE
I'm still totally pro-gentle methods, but I have recognised that sometimes families need to weigh up the risks and benefits. And it's not for me to say when another family has reached that point. I just hope that every family makes the decision with full information.


this is how I feel now. Pre-pregnancy, during pregnancy and early parenthood I felt very strongly against CC in a 'How could you do that to your child?!' kind of way. Now that I have met other mum's through Mother group and heard their stories I understand that some people can't cope with the lack of sleep and somethings got to give. In my situation its highly unlikily I will do CC though.

QUOTE
Also I co-slept until recently, when I found out that there were 19 infant deaths in my state that were inferentially attributed to co-sleeping. There were no other obvious contributing factors.


I would really appreciate if you could point me in the direction of this info. I co-sleep from about 4am onwards following all the safe co-sleeping recommendations.

Edited by Spring Chickadee, 23 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.


#16 sedawson

Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

QUOTE (Spring Chickadee @ 23/01/2013, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would really appreciate if you could point me in the direction of this info. I co-sleep from about 4am onwards following all the safe co-sleeping recommendations.


Hi Spring Chickadee. I was informed of this by my two Child Health nurses at an infants' sleep group held last week in my home town. One nurse has a master's in midwifery and did her final project on child sleeping practices in Australia, the other worked at Tweddle until recently. In light of their credentials I didn't ask for references for this piece of information, as I have no reason to doubt it.

None of this is meant to sound huffy by the way, I also like to check facts when I hear them from strangers, but under these circumstances I simply accept that it is true. Apparently this statistic is unique to Tasmania and it's been proposed that maybe our colder climate down here means we use more doonas and bedding than other states?

#17 Cat People

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:14 PM

QUOTE (sedawson @ 23/01/2013, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Spring Chickadee. I was informed of this by my two Child Health nurses at an infants' sleep group held last week in my home town. One nurse has a master's in midwifery and did her final project on child sleeping practices in Australia, the other worked at Tweddle until recently. In light of their credentials I didn't ask for references for this piece of information, as I have no reason to doubt it.

None of this is meant to sound huffy by the way, I also like to check facts when I hear them from strangers, but under these circumstances I simply accept that it is true. Apparently this statistic is unique to Tasmania and it's been proposed that maybe our colder climate down here means we use more doonas and bedding than other states?



I'm afraid I would need more proof.  It doesn't fit anything I have read.  For example, in WA in two and half years there has been 29 co-sleeping deaths (infants) out of 54 sleeping deaths.  By co-sleeping they mean sharing the same surface ie bed, sofa.  All of them had other risk factors - infant or environment.   The mother smoking during pregnancy was also a big factor.  Some of the families were also known to DoCS.  Alcohol and medication was also a factor in some.  An infant risk would include the child's age (from memory 1-4 mths is the most dangerous period?), gender (more males) and if they child was premature.  Some of the shared sleep space included sofas, with Grandparents, and even a floor.

A quick google search reveals 15 babies died of SIDS in two years in Tasmania.  In this example - which they blamed on co-sleeping - the baby had a heart condition at the birth which they have dismissed as a factor, the baby was placed in between the parents, and they were not sleeping in their regular sleep space (a risk factor for SIDS is not sleeping in their regular sleep space ie relative's place, visiting a friend - this is whether it's in a bed or cot)  Another example - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/break...e-1226424779327  This baby died while sleeping in the bed with her mother and two sisters; she had also been suffering from respiratory bronchiolitis, rhinovirus infection and scabies at the time of her death.  In both cases, this is not safe co-sleeping.  The majority of co-sleepers do not sleep like that.

It annoys me HPs spend time warning mothers off co-sleeping when their time could be better spent talking about SAFE co-sleeping.  Parents who fall asleep on the sofa with their babies are not planning on co-sleeping, they are doing so out of exhaustion.   Wouldn't it make more sense to set up a safe sleeping environment in your own bed?  That's what I ended up doing after finding myself falling asleep while b'feeding in bed (with the usual assortment of pillows, doonas, etc).  It's also frustrating they blame co-sleeping when even they themselves admit they can not be certain; as stated in the second article.

Safe Co-sleeping Habits - Dr Sears


#18 **Xena**

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 23/01/2013, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can you give additional information?  Over what period of time?  I don't believe there were no other factors.  Unfortunately all sorts of unsafe sleeping is called co-sleeping eg sleeping on a couch, drug-affected parent, etc, etc.

OP, when I was pregnant I said I would use CC too.  I thought it sounded like a very reasonable and easy solution to sleep problems.


I agree, I'd like to see more evidence. I read heeeeaaappssss of information before I coslept and I never found an incident which wasn't related to other factors.

Edited by **Xena**, 24 January 2013 - 09:29 PM.


#19 sedawson

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

I'm annoyed now too. Why would some highly qualified child health professionals present such specific information if it is inaccurate? I am assuming they have access to statistics and data that the rest of us don't, which is also a real possibility. Sigh. I think when I have a moment I'll call them and see if they can provide a reference for this. When that happens I'll repost. I was always very pro cosleeping; I mean, as a friend of mine put it, you don't see any other mammals sleeping away from their babies. I co-slept with my first son for years and didn't mind it. Four month old is sleeping much better in a cot next to my bed now, though. Each their own.  









#20 Spring Chickadee

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

Co-sleeping is definitely  something I would love to be sure of. As far as my gut instinct goes- it feels right to sleep by my baby. But on an intellectual level I need to be sure it's safe.

Madame Protart- thanks so much for that info original.gif We follow the guidelines in that link plus No doonas or additional pillows. I've never been a smoker or have any other risk factors (obese, sleep deprived, heavy drinker, sleep disorders etc).

Any extra info you could give Sedawson would be brilliant!

Edited by Spring Chickadee, 24 January 2013 - 06:43 PM.


#21 FeralLIfeHacker

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:41 PM


dp

Edited by lifehacker, 24 January 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#22 FeralLIfeHacker

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 23/01/2013, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm afraid I would need more proof.  It doesn't fit anything I have read.  For example, in WA in two and half years there has been 29 co-sleeping deaths (infants) out of 54 sleeping deaths.  By co-sleeping they mean sharing the same surface ie bed, sofa.  All of them had other risk factors - infant or environment.   The mother smoking during pregnancy was also a big factor.  Some of the families were also known to DoCS.  Alcohol and medication was also a factor in some.  An infant risk would include the child's age (from memory 1-4 mths is the most dangerous period?), gender (more males) and if they child was premature.  Some of the shared sleep space included sofas, with Grandparents, and even a floor.

A quick google search reveals 15 babies died of SIDS in two years in Tasmania.  In this example - which they blamed on co-sleeping - the baby had a heart condition at the birth which they have dismissed as a factor, the baby was placed in between the parents, and they were not sleeping in their regular sleep space (a risk factor for SIDS is not sleeping in their regular sleep space ie relative's place, visiting a friend - this is whether it's in a bed or cot)  Another example - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/break...e-1226424779327  This baby died while sleeping in the bed with her mother and two sisters; she had also been suffering from respiratory bronchiolitis, rhinovirus infection and scabies at the time of her death.  In both cases, this is not safe co-sleeping.  The majority of co-sleepers do not sleep like that.

It annoys me HPs spend time warning mothers off co-sleeping when their time could be better spent talking about SAFE co-sleeping.  Parents who fall asleep on the sofa with their babies are not planning on co-sleeping, they are doing so out of exhaustion.   Wouldn't it make more sense to set up a safe sleeping environment in your own bed?  That's what I ended up doing after finding myself falling asleep while b'feeding in bed (with the usual assortment of pillows, doonas, etc).  It's also frustrating they blame co-sleeping when even they themselves admit they can not be certain; as stated in the second article.

Safe Co-sleeping Habits - Dr Sears


Agree 100%

I've researched a lot on this subject and have co-slept with 8 babies. I just had a discussion about this  with a midwife, there are so many contributing factors smoking, alcohol, drugs, unsafe sleeping surfaces etc






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