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WOuld a bank let us do this?
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#1 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:40 PM

Hi all,

I'm just throwing around some ideas at the moment, and think this might work!!!  

We are planning to demolish/rebuild our house.  Have already investigated the options of selling and rebuying etc, and staying where we are is the best financial option for us.

We also have 2 kids in private school, and not a lot of future savings.   And I will recieve a substantial inheritance in the future. sad.gif  Don't like to think about it much.  But the reality when your parents are in their 80's make it a "when", not an "if".  (So whatever we do now will not be indefinite.

Our borrowing capacity is over $1 mill (absolutely rediculous!!!) so we have the money to "service" whatever we do.

OK - so what I'm thinking is: happy.gif

We borrow enough to rebuild a new house, plus enough to cover the next 5 years of school fees.  The school fees money is left in the account (so we don't pay interest on it?) and used as necessary.

In the meantime we would also be making extra payments, which will also add up towards future school fees etc.  (Kids will be at school for another 10 years almost).

I suppose I see the school fees money as a safety net/security thing.  Is that strange?  

Is it true that if we don't use the money, we don't pay interest?  

What am I missing?  What are the pro's and con's of doing this?  Or is it just a strange way to go about it?  We could afford to jsut save the school fees, I suppose.  But the idea of having 5 years put away in the bank in advance, to redraw as we need it, just feels more comfortable to me.  Then any savings as my pay increases in the future etc will go towards the next 5 years - and fee increases.

(As I said, obviously eventually I will have enough money to pay it all out and be debt free.  sad.gif )

WDYT?  How would you do it?

#2 Feral Mozzie

Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

I'm not sure why you want to do this - is it because it will give you a false sense of "savings"? Just be careful that you don't end up spending more money because you feel like you have cash sitting in the bank.

If you have the money sitting in an offset account, then you won't pay interest on it. You will have higher minimum repayments, because the loan amount will be higher.

As for whether the bank will let you - I'm not sure, but I imagine it will depend on how much the property is worth, and how much you want to borrow in total. If you are only borrowing 60% of its value, they might. If you want to borrow 110% of its value (including the school fees), you have buckleys.

Also, an inheritance isn't ever guaranteed - I wouldn't be banking on it.

#3 ~She~

Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:56 PM

I guess it depends on your loan setup but as far I understand from our own borrowing you are right that you only pay interest on what you spend. I can't see a bank taking much confidence in the whole inheritance as security though, that's the only thing I would be concerned about.

I have one child in private school and another that will start in a couple of years time so I can see the merit in your forward planning there, I wish we were in a position to begin my savings plan for education right now rather than it be something budgeted when the time comes. It would also afford you a lot more freedom yearly from your income.

We are halfway through a renovation project on a house that I just can't fall in love with, but love our location and would love to demolish and start again myself so I say if you can. then go for it biggrin.gif

#4 Coffeegirl

Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

I don't know about the 'not paying interest part'. Unless you are talking about nit drawing down the full amount if the loan?  In this case I don't think think the money is there indefinitely, you have to draw it down in X amount of time of the bank takes back the offer.

My understanding is if you did take all the money and park the school fees in an offset account, you would still pay interest based on the total amount borrowed, then the amount sitting in the offset account would be used to lower the interest paid, but I think you'd be worse off based on current rates.

Either way you are putting yourself in more debt to the bank.  You said you could save the money yourself?  Then I would be doing this and putting the savings in an offset account, so it worked agains the money borrowed for the new build, but was still available when you needed it to pay fees.



#5 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

QUOTE
As for whether the bank will let you - I'm not sure, but I imagine it will depend on how much the property is worth, and how much you want to borrow in total. If you are only borrowing 60% of its value, they might. If you want to borrow 110% of its value (including the school fees), you have buckleys.

Also, an inheritance isn't ever guaranteed - I wouldn't be banking on it.


The full amount borrowed would be about 60% of the finished house value..... (new houses in our area are around $1.2 mil.  We would be wanting about $700 000 all up).

As to the inheritance, we wouldn't be putting that forward as security.  But it is guaranteed in as much as my parents are very upfront with my brother and I as to who is getting what when they go.  They are forward planners! rolleyes.gif  (down to individual jewellery pieces etc).  They have quite a few properties to be split between the two of us.

Another option which have used in the past is to use one of their properties as security, but I am thinking with our current equity we shouldn't need to.

QUOTE
Either way you are putting yourself in more debt to the bank. You said you could save the money yourself? Then I would be doing this and putting the savings in an offset account, so it worked agains the money borrowed for the new build, but was still available when you needed it to pay fees


Thanks coffee girl.  And your other points are what I was wondering too.  I think this sounds like the logical way to go.  But I do like the plan of having it there "just in case".  And anything we add is a bonus for the future years beyond the initial 5.

QUOTE
It would also afford you a lot more freedom yearly from your income
.

I htiknk this is the attraction.  I know we can live comfortably(not extravagantly, jsut not "on the edge" as we have in the past), and it reduces my stress for the future.

Edited by Ruffles, 14 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.


#6 Feral Mozzie

Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

QUOTE (Coffeegirl @ 14/01/2013, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My understanding is if you did take all the money and park the school fees in an offset account, you would still pay interest based on the total amount borrowed, then the amount sitting in the offset account would be used to lower the interest paid, but I think you'd be worse off based on current rates.


Most mortgage offset accounts these days are 100% offset - so you don't pay any interest on the money that has been borrowed, then dumped straight into the offset account. We kind of did this when we got our mortgage (only put up 20% desposit when we had more, so we effectively borrowed more than we needed to). It means that because of the higher minimum repayments, we will have our reggae completely paid off in 6 years.

#7 cinnabubble

Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE
It means that because of the higher minimum repayments, we will have our reggae completely paid off in 6 years.


Tee hee.

#8 IsolaBella

Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

With my grandmother turning 94 (grandfather passes away the week before he turned 90) personally I would not be counting on inheritance soon. My MIL is 81. Still kicking strong.



#9 KT1978

Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

I wouldn't borrow extra, maybe a small redraw buffer only.

If you are saving for fees why do you need five years worth? Just save each week and pay each term. I liken what you are doing to buying bigger clothes, just makes it easier to put on weight because you have room!

How much is the land worth? Don't over capitalise on building. That's a big mortgage if prices go down and you need to sell. Inheiretence is never guaranteed and could be 15 years away.

#10 fancie

Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:58 PM



OP, we knocked down-rebuilt 6 years ago.

The amount we borrowed was $35,000 more than the builder's contract for the rebuild.  During the build, the builder would send us a completion of stage form which we would submit to the bank who would then release only those funds requested by the builder for that particular stage completion - for example: completion of the slab and framework, completion of the bricklaying and roof tiling etc.

Once the last of the stage completion requests had been paid to the builder (after handover of the house to us) were the additional funds deposited to our account.

Don't know whether this applies to our bank and loan conditions or all banks.  I would be very doubtful that the bank would release the funds to you prior to the build as they do not want you to do a runner with the money when they hold the mortgage over the block of land AND the added value of the future dwelling.

#11 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE (lsolaBella @ 14/01/2013, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With my grandmother turning 94 (grandfather passes away the week before he turned 90) personally I would not be counting on inheritance soon. My MIL is 81. Still kicking strong.


I only put the inheritance issue in as although we will take the mortgage over 25 years, realistically, we will not have it for that long.  DOesn't mean we are planning on my parents passing away within any time frame, but knowing them, they are not likely to live to 100+.  It's a non-issue, really.

QUOTE
Don't know whether this applies to our bank and loan conditions or all banks. I would be very doubtful that the bank would release the funds to you prior to the build as they do not want you to do a runner with the money when they hold the mortgage over the block of land AND the added value of the future dwelling.


That makes sense.  I suppose I was thinking that, at the end of the build, we would have the house, some money in the bank for the next few years, and enough income to pay it all back at a speed/timeframe that suits us.


QUOTE
If you are saving for fees why do you need five years worth? Just save each week and pay each term.

How much is the land worth? Don't over capitalise on building. That's a big mortgage if prices go down and you need to sell.


I know that sounds the best way to do it.  It just seems stressful, to be saving for fees etc and saving for the house, and and and.  I just like the idea of a "buffer", as I've said. And if we then pay back more, due to paying more than the minimum required on the loan anyway, then we can "return" the buffer in time.  But if we need it, it's there.

Going on other properties in our area (same street, even) I'd say land value is  worth about the $700 000 we are looking at.  A new house on our street recently sold for $1.25mil, so I don't think we are over-capitalising.  We are also planning to stay here for another 25 years or so (If things go according to plan, but you can never plan that long away shrug.gif ).  So not so worried about over-capitalising.

#12 Overtherainbow

Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

I can see where the OP is coming from.  Interest rates on the mortgage is better than paying school fees by credit card and may be cheaper than any school payment option.

If you were to borrow 2 kids at $10K per year for 5 years
($100K) it would cost $215 838 over 30 years at an interest rate of 6%.  You would be paying an extra $115 838 in interest for their schooling.

It would also add an extra $600 per month in payments.

If you had several years until they start highschool and were to leave that money in an offset account, you would still be paying the additional $600 per month in payments but would not need to pay interest on that amount so the $600 would reduce the principal on the loan.  You would pay an additional $7200 per year on your loan until they start school.  If you calculated your school fees and divided it by 12 and paid that amount into your homeloan in advance, you would not be behind at all.  In fact your savings would then be working on your homeloan at a higher rate than an interest bearing account with no tax implications.

Negatives I see:  Not putting extra on the loan and paying far more in interest. Drawing the money out earlier and wasting it on nonschool fees.  Interest rates rising.

It's always good to rejuggle things.  Never rely on inheritance.

#13 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE
It's always good to rejuggle things. Never rely on inheritance.


True.  I probably should have left that out.  Realistically though, we can afford it without..... just over more years.  I'm not relying on it. wink.gif

THanks for the other perspective though.  Youve calculated out what I was thinking. (I think ?)

#14 LittleListen

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:09 PM

And if one of you had a tragic accident that's a heck of a loan to pay back.

I wouldn't do it even if the banks would let me. Don't borrow trouble I say.

Borrow what you need to get the job done and save what you can. Borrowing a buffer is an easy way to convince yourself you are better off than you are...

#15 Peppery

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

I obviously can only speak from my situation but I am currently in the process of building a house. The block of land is owned outright. To obtain a mortgage to build the house I have had to submit the final quotation from the builder. I also got approval to fund the landscaping  concreting, flooring etc. The final approval figure was based on quotations I had received in relation to these extras. The bank aren't going to hand the funds over to me. They will only pay the invoices for me

#16 MrsLexiK

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

I know someone that did that an equity line or loan so was approved for a certain amount and could withdraw as need be. It was purely for school fees.

#17 MrsFeral247

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:27 PM

QUOTE (eyesabove @ 14/01/2013, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Borrowing a buffer is an easy way to convince yourself you are better off than you are...


If you are worried about being able to pay the school fees, borrowing the money just gives a false security.

#18 Lokum

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:31 PM

QUOTE (eyesabove @ 14/01/2013, 08:09 PM)
15237756[/url]']
And if one of you had a tragic accident that's a heck of a loan to pay back.

I wouldn't do it even if the banks would let me. Don't borrow trouble I say.

Borrow what you need to get the job done and save what you can. Borrowing a buffer is an easy way to convince yourself you are better off than you are...


If one of them had a tragic accident, they might be waiting some months on insurance/TAC/lawsuit payout/super payout. That several months wait could see the kids school fees overdue and them kicked out of school, or the homeloan getting overdrawn.
Having the money sitting in redraw or an offset account gives you the buffer. We did this to facilitate my maternity leave (sort of.) We could have closed one of our mortgages - the property was completely paid off, well ahead of schedule. We left $100k in redraw.
If our babÅ· had been born with SN, or we had a big medical problem, or I couldnt/ didnt want to go back to work so soon, or we couldnt manage our one-income budget as well as we thought, or relatives overseas had an emergency, we had a decent buffer if $100k.

and if we only needed half, we could use the remainder to pay back itself until i returned to work etc. Sitting in redraw, we werent paying interest on it. We just had to make sure we didnt leave it on direct debit and accidentally autmotically close it. I think we actually left $100 owing, so the monthly repayments were like 1 cent.
The risks were that we frittered it away, or one of us got a gambling habit, but since we trusted each other and we were disciplined to get that far ahead in the first place it was good emergency money... Cos if the situation arose when we actaully needed it, that would be the time the bank would be least likely to lend it, IYKWIM?

Edited - DP

Edited by Lokum, 14 January 2013 - 07:40 PM.


#19 TillyTake2

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

Just keep in mind that the inheritance could be many many years off. I have a grandmother still going strong at 95. She does have a lot of care needs (not medical) which will be using well over $100,000 a year. If your parents become frail (but not terminally ill) they could end up needing care costing $100,000+ yearly for many many years. Think 10-20 years...

She was a very wealthy woman in her late 70's early 80's. 20 years has changed a lot & she now only has her home & a few hundred thousand left.

Edited by TillyTake2, 14 January 2013 - 07:39 PM.


#20 Pop-to-the-shops

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:51 PM

You could use the equity in your new home to take out a line of credit, to use as a buffer.

But I would do it after the house is finished, and it is worth more.

We have a small line of credit, and pay no interest or fees, as we haven't touched it yet.

#21 roses99

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE (lsolaBella @ 14/01/2013, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With my grandmother turning 94 (grandfather passes away the week before he turned 90) personally I would not be counting on inheritance soon. My MIL is 81. Still kicking strong.

DH's grandmother turns 99 in August and her specialist reckons she has another five years left  original.gif

OP, we have an offset loan and we also pay extra repayments. That extra builds up over time and, should we need to access those extra repayments for an emergency, we could do so. The bank would charge us $20 for the transaction and we could access the full value of extra repayments. In your case, that could be your buffer for school fees. The benefit of doing it that way, though, is that the cash isn't there at your disposal. We can't see that money and we can only access it by meeting with the bank to request it. So there isn't the temptation to just spend it on a holiday. But if we absolutely needed it, we could get to it.

That's what I'd do. We did borrow a bit extra than we needed for our renovation, but we poured that money immediately back into the mortgage so that we wouldn't be tempted to spend it.



#22 LifesGood

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:56 PM

QUOTE (eyesabove @ 14/01/2013, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And if one of you had a tragic accident that's a heck of a loan to pay back.

That's what life insurance is for.

OP - initially upon reading your post I thought 'what?! that's crazy!'. But after thinking about it a bit I think you should borrow more than you need regardless of the school fees. The build is likely to cost more than you think anyway, there are always unexpected costs and so long as you are disciplined and don't draw the extra money down for unnecessary things then you should be fine. If you get a line of credit instead of a traditional mortgage it will allow you more flexibility. For example you won't need an offset account as you simply don't draw down on the school fees until and if you need to. If you have saved the fees separately then you won't ever need to draw the surplus portion of your line of credit. It sounds like you can comfortably afford what you are doing.

We have an arrangement like this (two actually) and we use it like an overdraft - when we need to pay a large expense we draw it down from our surplus finance, and then we pay it back as quickly as possible. We are about to build an extension and renovate our house, and we have in effect applied for more finance than we think we need just so we don't have to worry about running out.

#23 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE
And if one of you had a tragic accident that's a heck of a loan to pay back.


Yes - that's what income protection and life insurance is for. wink.gif

As I said, I shouldn't have mentioned the inheritance.  We don't need it to be able to service the loan or make this happen in some way, shape or form.



Maybe the "line of credit" is what I'm looking for! biggrin.gif   I'll look into that further.


QUOTE
The risks were that we frittered it away, or one of us got a gambling habit, but since we trusted each other and we were disciplined to get that far ahead in the first place it was good emergency money...


That's kind of my thinking too.  We also have DH's mother overseas and need to have enough money in the bank for him to get on a flight at a moments notice if required.  We've always had a credit card with a $30 000 limit (not spent, obviously) which I'd like to get rid of.





#24 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:08 PM

A question - does a line of credit attract the same interest as the home loan?  And do they get paid off as two separate accounts, or are they combined?

Off to do some further research - but thought those of you "in the know" could probably explain it better than a bank website!

#25 Feral Mozzie

Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

QUOTE (Lokum @ 14/01/2013, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cos if the situation arose when we actaully needed it, that would be the time the bank would be least likely to lend it, IYKWIM?

Edited - DP


That's exactly why we put our extra savings in an offset account, rather than taking out a smaller mortgage.




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