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Friendzone - a sexist idea


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#1 CallMeFeral

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:08 PM

Kind of in the feminist grain I've been in this week...

WDYT of this?

http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/20834902...ce-guy-approach

The idea that guys talking about the 'friend zone' with a woman is quite sexist.
I never really questionned it, because I do know what they mean. And yet this article makes some good points. Maybe it depends on the context it's used in. The article certainly has a certain bias.

But some quotes I particularly liked

"girls are not machines that you put Kindness Coins into until sex falls out."

and

"s*ut is how we vilify a woman for exercising her right to say yes.

Friendzone is how we vilify a woman for exercising her right to say no."

Your thoughts?

#2 ComradeBob

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

Agree with it. The bit I thought was interesting was this
QUOTE
What we learned as kids is that we males are each owed, and will eventually be awarded, a beautiful woman. We were told this by every movie, TV show, novel, comic book, video game and song we encountered…
which resonated as more than a few times over the years I've mentally yelled at the TV/film screen "No! Don't GO THERE!" when some heroine is throwing her lot in with the bloke that has just stalked her, or sent anonymous emails or however he has "proved" his love.



#3 Fenrir

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

Bob - now it's unacceptable for a man to pursue a woman he likes ? Far out....She can say bugger off anytime she likes.

#4 HRH Countrymel

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

I remember being quite shocked to hear of the sighing disappointment that men come to when they realise they have made a friend when what they were actually aiming for was a romantic rendezvous.

It wasn't something I'd ever thought about really as someone with lots of male friends...

But then I was talking with my Auntie after I had just met my cousin's awesome, awesome fiancee.

After saying how awesome I thought she was (did I mention she is awesome? She is!) his mother said "Oh yes, he wasn't letting her slip into the 'friend sphere'... when he met her he made it quite clear that he was interested in her romantically, luckily for them it worked out."

Now this man is a great person, he has heaps of good female friends, works in a gender neutral type industry and I was quite surprised to think that he would approach his love life this way.

But as his mother explained both he and his brother were 'unlucky in love' - they somehow always managed to be the 'great mate' or the 'wonderful caring friend' but never the 'boyfriend' and when my cousin met this awesome girl he decided he couldn't bear to sit back and be her friend while she embarked eventually on a romance with someone else..

So he laid his cards on the table and it worked out.


I then went back and asked a few of my good male friends what their intentions had been when we first met...  to my horror to a one they had all 'befriended me' in the hope of getting into my pants!

Luckily for me (and them) my charm and hilarity ensured that they stayed around long after they realised that that wasn't on the table.

I was however really surprised - and it made me look back on my early twenties through a completely different tint of glass!

#5 Bunsen the feral

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

It's a concept that has had me feeling uneasy for a while - because it seems so benign and most of us can relate to unrequited love. But the more it becomes a meme and the more you see it, it starts to become "look at all these mean women who won't put out for all these nice men"

#6 Feral_Pooks

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:27 PM

I think it's a well written article and I will certainly be watching movies and tv with a more critical eye toward that kind of rubbish.

Eta. CountryMel, I had a similar experience when after my epic break up a few years ago, about a dozen of my male friends had a crack and said they had always been interested... My current partner is one of my old male friends but didn't make a move, just continued to offer friendship and support, and I pursued him wub.gif

Edited by Pooks_, 09 January 2013 - 12:31 PM.


#7 ComradeBob

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

I can't think of a movie example ATM BM, and maybe someone can help me, but certainly one teen book I can think of had the bloke raping the woman, she gets pregnant, he decides she is the love of his life and marries him. I read it as a teen (Easy Connections, I know some people remember it).

Of course it's good if blokes pursue women they're interested in, but not to the point that the woman says no, and he keeps doing it. As we all know, that crosses the line into stalking and it's criminal behaviour which can have a devastating impact on the victim. As a victim of stalking myself, I know what that feels like. But there have been, and no doubt will in the future be movies where the heroine says no, her defences get worn down by constant bombardment by the bloke and she eventually capitualtes and says yes. And he "wins the girl" which is in itself also inherently sexist, as most movies don't have the woman "winning" the hero at the end.

Which is exactly what the article is about.

#8 Z-girls rock

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

I have only read a little bit about this friendzone thing.

If I am being honest I have said it in the opposite way. MY poor DH had tons of girls who were friends and very little romantic experience before he met me.
He tried to confuse me into friendship too! But I was not having it! hahahaha

I had to explain to him that if we kept going out and he was super nice but didnt take any of my hints then we would be in danger of being friends...
me "is this what you want"
him "no".
me "then kiss me you fool!"

roll2.gif


but he is a genuine nice guy who had no idea.

these other d*ckheads are actually jerks who want to blame women for their failings. Like the guys who think all women who dont like their pickup lines must be lesbians.

#9 cinnabubble

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:42 PM

That irritating Clementine Ford wrote an article that touches on it and didn't utterly annoy me yesterday: http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views...0107-2ccch.html

#10 slvhwke

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

I've read it before & agreed with it then & now.

This one also sums it up well for me.

Just to quote out of that blog piece I linked.

QUOTE
5) The Friendzone Is Not Really An Actual Thing
If a woman is just your friend and not someone you're having sex with, that is what we in certain circles call a 'friend'. Yes, what you have there is a friendship, one between you, a man, and a second person, a woman. This can sometimes happen. The chances are she's not 'put' you there because women get off on torturing men, but because she simply wants to just be friends with you, like you might be with a dude. Sex is not the default interaction between men and women. Sex is a thing that happens between two (or more!) people that express a sexual interest in one another and then gratify it by mutual consent. It's not something you're supposed to expect, but which women then cruelly decide to deny you from their lofty position as the gatekeepers of the sexual realm. Friendships with women that feature no sex can be rewarding. Try viewing said woman as a person rather than a target for your d*ck, and see what happens.


So yes - I think the concept of a friendzone is a bulls*#t sexist idea created by men who are not as nice as they think they are.

If you are my friend - be my friend.  If you want to get into my pants then front up and let me know.  Ask me on a date.  Send me a card - whatever you need to get that message to me.  If I say no then don't continue to be my friend if you are just hoping that I might get drunk enough to sleep with you anyway.


#11 steppy

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

The 'friendzone' existed prior to the internet. I had experience with it - tons of male friends until I put on some weight. LOL

#12 PixieVee

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:54 PM

I'm confused can't women be "friendzoned" by men too?

#13 CourtesanNewton

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

QUOTE (steppy @ 09/01/2013, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The 'friendzone' existed prior to the internet. I had experience with it - tons of male friends until I put on some weight. LOL

Same. So many boys that I was madly in love with, and they all ended up being great friends, and nothing more, while it took me till I was 24 to get my first proper boyfriend. Going back and talking to them years later, none of them had a clue of how I felt, and just didn't think of me in a romantic fashion. I thought I was putting out signals, but I was friend zoned big time.


#14 Z-girls rock

Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

I have a friend who does this all the time (not to me)

he becomes a womans friend *best friend* the type who is always a shoulder for her to cry on... except that he has romantic intentions and she has no idea.
I get angry with him and insist that he needs to grow up and let her know what his intentions are.
sometimes he does - she rejects him (often because she is confused and now only thinks of him as a friend).
he is then wounded. very wounded. Hurt. devistated (depending on his level of romantic attachment) and distances himself from the friend "for his own good"

he then wants to sook to me about it...

I have told him over and over that he only has himself to blame and if he does it again I am cutting him off as a friend.
My DH cant stand him anymore.

#15 Mitis angelam

Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:12 PM

QUOTE (HappyNewBob! @ 09/01/2013, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't think of a movie example ATM BM, and maybe someone can help me, but certainly one teen book I can think of had the bloke raping the woman, she gets pregnant, he decides she is the love of his life and marries him. I read it as a teen (Easy Connections, I know some people remember it).


I think - it's been years since I read it - that Tess of the D'Urbervilles did something similar.  I think she ended up her rapist's mistress?

#16 steppy

Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

QUOTE (redkris @ 09/01/2013, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Same. So many boys that I was madly in love with, and they all ended up being great friends, and nothing more, while it took me till I was 24 to get my first proper boyfriend. Going back and talking to them years later, none of them had a clue of how I felt, and just didn't think of me in a romantic fashion. I thought I was putting out signals, but I was friend zoned big time.


I actually meant heaps of young men were 'friends' with me until I put on weight, and then they didn't find me as attractive anymore and suddenly didn't want to hang out as much. But yes, I have also liked men who preferred me as just a friend.

I see it from a perspective that if someone wants to sleep with you but says they are a friend, they aren't really a friend anyway - they are just hanging around and waiting for an opportunity and often they will put down your partner to try and make it easier for themselves. I don't like those kind of 'friends'.

#17 Feral_Pooks

Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:24 PM

QUOTE (PixieVee @ 09/01/2013, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm confused can't women be "friendzoned" by men too?

As per the article, the narrative is that if a woman friendzones a man she is being harsh and he is not being justly rewarded. If a man friendzones a woman it's because she is unattractive and/or "hopeless".

It is a pretty common story, isn't it, even if it's not always so straight forward in real life it's a common narrative.

#18 CallMeFeral

Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

QUOTE (countrymel @ 09/01/2013, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
After saying how awesome I thought she was (did I mention she is awesome? She is!) his mother said "Oh yes, he wasn't letting her slip into the 'friend sphere'... when he met her he made it quite clear that he was interested in her romantically, luckily for them it worked out."

Now this man is a great person, he has heaps of good female friends, works in a gender neutral type industry and I was quite surprised to think that he would approach his love life this way.


Yeah see that's the thing. I think there IS a benefit it painting yourself as a romantic/sexual option first up, to encourage the person to think of you that way, instead of as a friend. I think it can be a factor in whether chemistry involves. You can kind of create a sexual tension that gives rise to chemistry - or you can build a comfortable closeness that is not so conducive to chemistry. So I think the approaches that are sometimes recommended in order to not get 'put in the friendzone' can have some value.

QUOTE (countrymel @ 09/01/2013, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I then went back and asked a few of my good male friends what their intentions had been when we first met...  to my horror to a one they had all 'befriended me' in the hope of getting into my pants!

Luckily for me (and them) my charm and hilarity ensured that they stayed around long after they realised that that wasn't on the table.

I was however really surprised - and it made me look back on my early twenties through a completely different tint of glass!


ohmy.gif
Wow. That would kind of be a shock, I imagine.
I wonder if my habitual way of dressing myself down rather than up is somehow related to this. Or possibly not. Certainly resulted in me not having any male friends who were attracted to me. They must have been there for my sparkling personality.... um... wait... most of them were attracted to my best friend...  huh.gif   hmmm.....

QUOTE (Bunsen @ 09/01/2013, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's a concept that has had me feeling uneasy for a while - because it seems so benign and most of us can relate to unrequited love. But the more it becomes a meme and the more you see it, it starts to become "look at all these mean women who won't put out for all these nice men"


Yes I think that's the thing. The individual concept has some validity, but it get's latched onto by a crowd and starts to send a really different message...

QUOTE (FluffyOscar @ 09/01/2013, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It looks like some bullsh*t FB concept (I'm not on FB). Are women not allowed to have any input into their romantic relationships? Or have I missed something? I feel very old...

It's not a facebook thing... I think you may have missed it! laughing2.gif

QUOTE (HappyNewBob! @ 09/01/2013, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But there have been, and no doubt will in the future be movies where the heroine says no, her defences get worn down by constant bombardment by the bloke and she eventually capitualtes and says yes. And he "wins the girl" which is in itself also inherently sexist, as most movies don't have the woman "winning" the hero at the end.

Which is exactly what the article is about.

I dunno though. I have friends who pursued their partners this way, and they are now completely in love. In fact, as a child I used to visualise the same, but of course the pursuer was always extremely attractive and desirable, and the fantasy didn't cover why on earth I'd have said no in the first place. But I don't think pursuing (within reason) a woman is inherently bad, it's all in the execution.
And I think there are movies where the woman DOES win the guy - that crap one where she dresses up as a male to pursue him - those stupid ones where the most popular guy does some dare and the most unpopular girl comes good and he falls for her and she gets the prize (him). Cinderella. Maybe pride and prejudice. Strictly Ballroom.
That's where I thought the article was a bit biased. I think it's rare that a female is the lead character in a movie (which is a whole other issue) - but when they are, and it's a feelgood genre, they usually get the 'prize'.

QUOTE (PixieVee @ 09/01/2013, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm confused can't women be "friendzoned" by men too?

There was an article saying that theoretically yes (and in practice too). But overwhelmingly the term seems to be used by men about women. Certainly on the internet it is.

QUOTE (steppy @ 09/01/2013, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The 'friendzone' existed prior to the internet. I had experience with it - tons of male friends until I put on some weight. LOL

ohmy.gif
Serious???
Far out, they really do think with those things.  glare.gif

#19 CallMeFeral

Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:31 PM

QUOTE (Ange Vert @ 09/01/2013, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think - it's been years since I read it - that Tess of the D'Urbervilles did something similar.  I think she ended up her rapist's mistress?


I think there was something like that... but I don't think it was painted as a positive thing. I thought he became religious or something but kept pursuing her and then ruined her life again and maybe she killed him or something???
Hmmm. Maybe this was a dream I had...

Cinabubble - yes I read the Clementine one first and was going to link to that but found it a bit all over the place - this one was one of the ones she linked to that kind of presented it more concisely.

#20 CallMeFeral

Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

slvhwke - that link is brilliant! True but also hilarious.

#21 CourtesanNewton

Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:04 PM

FWIW I friend zoned DH after our first date as I felt he was friend material, I wasn't sexually attracted to him at the time, and not my "type" He pursued me for 6 months (not in a stalkery way) to change my mind, and it worked. Married 10 years now. Maybe I am an exception though.

#22 PixieVee

Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

I'm pretty sure I friendzoned my fiancé for a long time too haha.

#23 Jane Jetson

Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:54 PM

The friendzone is a sexist construct dreamed up by men with Nice Guy Syndrome (characterised by actually being an a*s*hole who doesn't get laid as much as he would like to, then whining about what a nice guy he is and it's all so unfair that women who aren't interested in him won't put out).

In my experience, I either friendzoned or ****-off-a*s*hole-zoned guys I didn't want to sleep with. Not as some sort of punishment or because I secretly wanted them to stalk me, but because I didn't want to sleep with them, which was an entirely legitimate response.

#24 Oriental lily

Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

DH used to friend zone heaps of girls before I was with him.
He still has heaps of friends who are girls. Many who still give me funny resentful looks for being the one who got him.

Most people were also convinced he was gay.

DH said he would meet a nice girl, become a friends and didint want to ruin a nice friendship by making it sexual.

These girls had crushes on him. But never enough for them to make a move.

I often think was he being unfair to them? Should he stopped the friendship knowing these girls had more feelings for him?


I think we have to remember its not about grinding lust.

Some of these people who are put in the friend zone also want emotional intimacy on a higher level than just friends.

A proper relationship, with a future.

So I am not sure if it's sexist if it's happening to both genders.

More a massive mis communication.


#25 Propaganda

Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:35 PM

I agree it's rather sexist.

The male friends I have are friends because I like them as people, but do not feel sexually attracted to them, or do not think they'd make good partners. They're nice people who I enjoy interacting with, but not people I want to sleep with or otherwise engage with romantically.

I think it's showing just how much of a jerk you are if you're complaining about a woman not putting out for you, after how nice you've been to her. The article makes perfect sense.




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