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#1 CallMeProtart

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:29 PM

Ok hadn't intended to start a thread on it but I was writing this long reply to the rape case one, and it was a bit of a tangent anyway, and then it was removed when I pressed post, so I thought I'd post it as it's own thread. Mainly because I really want someone to convince me not to feel this way anymore!

Re the case - that's sick. And tbh I'm hearing so much these days about the way women are treated, sexually, worldwide, that it's starting to really affect me.
For ages I've wondered wtf is it about women that makes us, in every culture where there is a gender divide, the downtrodden gender. Surely if we were really 'equal' it would be 50/50? Yes we have less physical strength - but the dominant people in most countries aren't always the physically strongest. And in most physical and mental areas we outshine males - but it's not worth a thing. Sometimes I think it's something to do with reproduction - that we become emotionally and physically vulnerable once we are pregnant and even after we have children, due to our attachment to them (although I can't quite figure out why our attachment to them should be greater than a males). Sometimes I think it's just because we have a hole, that men seem to be absolutely desperate to put their bits in.

But really, I don't know. I just hate it though. I hate that I don't know why, and that I don't understand, and most of all that I can't change it. When I read about the Congo, saw the Sri Lanka killing fields video, and now the case in India, and now this... I'm just so full of disgust for these men. And then it starts to spread to men in general. And it's gotten so bad since the India thing that I'm starting to look at all the men around me suspiciously. Despite all the ones I've heard saying exactly the things I'd hope a man should say... a part of me thinks... ah, but if you'd grown up that way, you'd be one of them. You've been taught better... but for this to be in every society... it must be innate. You've glossed over it - but it's in there. When DH complains about our sex life, a side of me knows it's a legitimate problem, a side of me goes "ah see - you're just like them - it's all about the hole"
I never used to feel this way. I used to feel like I was in a world where yes, there was sexism, just as there is racism and fatism, but nobody is inferior and it's just a matter of combating it where we see it. I always felt equal - even more than equal tbh, I know there are a lot of areas where, on unbiased measurement, women outstrip males... even though it doesn't translate into an equal level of 'real world' success.  

But I honestly truly wish I had some explanation for why women are treated this way, to varying extents, worldwide. Yes, crime happens everywhere, yes there are bad people, yes, bad things happen to males too. But this sexualisation - this treatment of a person as if they are just a thing for someone to masturbate into - it's so foul. And, overwhelmingly, it happens much more to women. So much so that in a lot of places in a lot of countries and a lot of male minds, sex is one of the most common first thoughts when looking at a woman. And where an attack on a man might still happen, it doesn't seem to be the case that the logical inclusion is rape - yet it seems to be so with a female.

Probably not expressing myself clearly. But I'd like to find a way to rewrite the way I'm feeling now. It even crossed my mind the other day - and I don't think it has ever crossed my mind before in my life - "what if we really are the inferior sex". And then I realised how easy it is to believe. I had the opposite drummed into me since birth... but lots of people didn't. Many - especially in those cultures - probably feel that they ARE unlucky to be female. And I'm starting to feel that way too.
Because if we aren't an inferior sex - how come there is not some massive uprising and vigilante protest or SOMETHING... that would have put a stop to this behaviour, whenever it happens, wherever it happens, so that men, all over the world, would not think that it was acceptable or that they could get away with it. WHY, if we are at all powerful, hasn't this MASSIVE problem been fixed. Maybe this first world philosophy that we are equal and the politically correct way of thinking, is just play acting at equality. If something went wrong and our country descended into anarchy and chaos... how much of our equality would we keep... how long before we started getting treated like women have been treated in every war ever. Not long - I'd put money on it.

QUOTE (BetteBoop @ 06/01/2013, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In absolute sincerity, I sometimes wish my child wasn't a girl. This world loathes females and treats them consistently as things for the amusement of men. Even so called privileged women are not worth the spit on a man's boot, when all is said and done.


Yep. I hate thinking like this, but I'm starting to.

ETA. Mods, this should probably be in WDYT but I don't know how to move it...

Edited by CallMeAliG, 06 January 2013 - 11:36 PM.


#2 BetteBoop

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:44 PM

It's like you stepped into my head to write this.

I don't fully understand why there is global oppression of women and so much unbridled hatred. What those men in Delhi did to that woman was an act of utter loathing. It had nothing to do with sex. Her male friend walked away from that bus and she's in the ground. They killed her by ****ing her to death. They utterly ripped her apart.

And it happens everywhere in the world including Australia. I was watching a documentary on the hundreds of women who have been raped and murdered in Mexico by gangs of men. Since then, we've had the Jill Meagher case, the Ohio story, the Delhi story, and it's all too much.

The world hasn't changed since I was a kid and now I have a little girl growing up in it having to face it herself. The thought of what can happen terrifies me. I know she has almost no chance of legal protection if it does happen.

I don't know why women aren't angrier. I think it's brain washing. We get so many messages about how feminism has gone too far and women have too many rights. Apparently our natural state is inferiority, so men granting us a semblance of equality is too much.

White supremacists say the global dominance of white men proves their superiority. I think it proves their aggression.

I've often wondered why black men who have been so horrifically abused throughout history haven't risen up. In the 60s there was the Black Panther movement but it didn't really take off.

Like black men, women seem happy to accept the crumbs off of mens' tables, as though it's all they can expect. I feel complete despair most of the time as how few women understand or care about their own lack of equality.

So, as you wondered, perhaps we are in the situation we're in because we deserve no better. I really don't pretend to understand this world.



#3 Burro

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:51 PM

I hear you. I agree with all of the above but I'm also sick of the inequality in sport and culture. Is there even a women's Tour de France? How is there time, money and interest for test series after test series but no one watches women play cricket.  Do women even  play sport because I couldn't tell from talking to friends and co workers or watching tv.

I took my DD to a term of soccer  but I almost feel like saying to her ' don't wast your time. Nobody cares if you play or watch unless they need your dollars. Even if you we're one of the best in  Australia no one would come and watch you play. They don't care if you like their sport, they don't want to hear your banter or see you at the games'.

Why do women invest so heavily in men's sport?

The other thing that's driving me a bit batty at the moment is newsreaders/reporters. I saw one the other day who looked like a work experience girl.

Films. Al about men unless they are a chick flick.

#4 SCARFACE CLAW

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:01 AM

I understand everything you said in your post OP. I barely read the news anymore because it just makes me depair, especially for my daughter. I dread her finding out about the awful things that happen to women, simply because they are women, and I just hope with all I have that she never experiences any of it first hand. I also hope that we can raise our son to be a wonderful, decent man. That's all we can do to make it better; raise our children the right way, and hope that with each generation it gets better. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime though sad.gif

#5 Guest_Sunnycat_*

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:06 AM

I don't know what it is or why it is this way. It's so many things: what a women's role has become, what a women's role is described as, low self esteem, teaching of self worth, cultural expectations of women, sexualisation of everything in our society.

It's really depressing.


#6 Magnus

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE (BetteBoop @ 07/01/2013, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know why women aren't angrier. I think it's brain washing. We get so many messages about how feminism has gone too far and women have too many rights.


I totally agree with this. When I talk to young women and men about women's rights or feminism, or equality, or whatever, many of them get really offended. It's hard to bring up the issues because they think that talking about the issues women face is somehow immediately anti-men (unless we spend at least fifty percent of the discussion talking about the issues facing men).

I think a lot of people don't know the extent of issues such as sexual violence and domestic violence. And then the rates are so high in many places that they then don't believe the statistics. Plus there are so many ways in which women are blamed when these things happen to them.

I think a lot of women aren't angrier because there are a lot of advantages to not being angry. If one is seen as angry or feminist, then it's easier to be stereotyped as bitter and man-hating, then it can make career progression, getting a partner and getting along with others quite difficult. There are a lot of social dividends for women who seem gentle- or whatever the opposite of angry is- and even for women who are very anti-feminist or anti-woman.

#7 BetteBoop

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:09 AM

Oh and this story came out today too. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/cali...0106-2cax5.html

I was already struggling to process how people could be angry at a teenaged girl who was drugged and gangraped and then I find out that a panel of judges saw fit to overturn a rape conviction not because the bloke didn't do it, but because they found some archaic old legal loophole that suggests unmarried women can't be raped and they seized the opportunity to release another rapist onto the streets.

I have stopped struggling and have accepted a simple truth. People do not care if women are abused by men because on some level they believe men are entitled to treat women this way.

#8 Guest_Sunnycat_*

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:16 AM

QUOTE (BetteBoop @ 07/01/2013, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh and this story came out today too. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/cali...0106-2cax5.html

I was already struggling to process how people could be angry at a teenaged girl who was drugged and gangraped and then I find out that a panel of judges saw fit to overturn a rape conviction not because the bloke didn't do it, but because they found some archaic old legal loophole that suggests unmarried women can't be raped and they seized the opportunity to release another rapist onto the streets.

I have stopped struggling and have accepted a simple truth. People do not care if women are abused by men because on some level they believe men are entitled to treat women this way.


Do you think it is that they don't care or they feel helpless and like they can't do anything so give up? (genuine question)

I know with friends a lot of them say in general that they don't watch the news or watch shows (like medical dramas) or read the newspaper because it "upsets them". Not saying that they should be reading and investigating every horrific and sad and depressing story that exists, but a lot of people do seem to like to bury their heads in the sand about anything remotely upsetting or off putting.

I read these horrible stories and feel sad but then I don't know what to do. What can we do?

#9 chello388

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:22 AM

There is a movie called "The Whistleblower".  I made my DP sit down and watch it with me and he said "I can't even watch this, this is disgraceful." It's about the treatment of some women forced into sexual slavery by peacekeepers (Read: United Nations).
Anyway what surprises me the moest is that women aren't angrier that lives are being ruined by men that are thinking with a sexual organ. That's not your BRAIN mate, you don't THINK with that thing.
I would love for my female friends to feel the anger that I feel, I know my DP gets sick of hearing me talk about the terrible things happening to women all over the world for the sexual gratification of men.
That said, I want men to be angrier too. If you're a good man, making good decisions, why aren't you angry about these things too?
Recently I realised that I'm a feminist.
I'm happy about it.
I don't hate men, I just love being a free, and responsible woman. I am lucky enough to have control over my own body, and I want that for my neices.

#10 ~~Cleopatra~~

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:27 AM

QUOTE


How does that make any kind of sense when you can have anyone charged, including a partner?

#11 BetteBoop

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:38 AM

QUOTE (Sunnycat @ 07/01/2013, 12:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you think it is that they don't care or they feel helpless and like they can't do anything so give up? (genuine question)

I know with friends a lot of them say in general that they don't watch the news or watch shows (like medical dramas) or read the newspaper because it "upsets them". Not saying that they should be reading and investigating every horrific and sad and depressing story that exists, but a lot of people do seem to like to bury their heads in the sand about anything remotely upsetting or off putting.

I read these horrible stories and feel sad but then I don't know what to do. What can we do?


Unfortunately sunnycat, I've seen enough of people's reactions when a woman or girl is raped to know that people genuinely don't care.

I think most people just want rape victims to shut up. Women are still told to keep their victimisation quiet and to not let other people know because it's shameful. This is part of the notion that women are always responsible for being raped.

The world trains women to know how they are responsible for the actions of rapists. Wearing a short skirt and being alone at night means one thing - you are asking for violent assault from a random male. Men are never told to stop raping women. The onus is always on women.

And then we all know of some poor bloke who was done wrong by an evil lady who lied about rape. The automatic assumption most people make is between rape allegations and lying.

Most victims will have to tell 3 people before anyone even believes them. Most people firmly believe a huge percentage of women lie about being raped because they regret having sex or some other bullsh*t.

So I actually think it's far more sinister than not caring. I think the patriarchal messages about rape are deliberate. They help to allow men to rape with impunity.

As long as people regard any woman who alleges rape as a s*ut or liar, then the chance of too many other women making complaints is minimised. So men continue to control women through intimidation and fear.

Most women restrict their behaviours in public spaces because of the fear of rape. They consider how they dress and where they go. So the threat of rape keeps us under control to some degree.

#12 Guest_Sunnycat_*

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:49 AM

It's true, victim blaming is very much alive and thriving. As is the denial that people's sons and brothers and fathers can do vile acts on to a woman.

I think people don't want to face the truth. Rape is used as a threat and as a weapon.

I worry about raising a son in this society. He is so innocent and sweet and lovely now, but what if he grows into one of these rapists or misogynistic pigs? What if I've done everything I can to try and teach him to respect women and that is just how he is? What if I can't do enough? What if I don't value myself enough and allow myself to be spoken to and treated in a manner that I would not want daughter to be treated and he learns from me that that is an acceptable way to treat women?

I don't know.



#13 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:00 AM

I think it's happening for 2 very different reasons which are, however, linked.

Firstly, women have been the "lesser sex" since prehistoric times, when it was the opposite.  Women were revered for the "magic" of being able to produce children and many societies were matriarchal as opposed to patriarchal.

Then someone figured it out, and later than that we had The Church, the ultimate in patriarchal society.  It continues today, and I don't need to explain why as it's bloody obviousl.

Secondly, there is a modern day culture of nouveau caveman.  Sports illustrates it best - male athletes compete with scantily clad women hired to whip the crowd into a frenzy.  Why does this happen?  I'm not sure.  I think testosterone plays a huge role, as does our current modern separation from the "old days" of hunter gatherers.

I just asked my 13 year old son about how girls are treated at his school.  Strangely enough he said that most of the males respect the females, but that the ones who abuse and torment girls are other girls.

Something to think about.  I was initially surprised by that, but on reflection of my own high school years I can say it was the same for me.

Where does that change?  I don't know.  Perhaps it doesn't.  Perhaps it's women hating on women that drives some women to put themselves in precarious positions so as to appear "more cool".  And before you utterly shoot me down in flames for saying that, let me be very clear.  I firmly believe that rape, abuse of females by males is an act of violence and is inexcusable.

But what if the men committing these atrocities were brought up by women who acted like my son says the girls in his high school act?  What if they are brought up by dads who viewed that in their own upbringing, and saw their dads just following along with that?

I'm going totally out on a limb here, I know it, but my son and his friend have really made me think.  If boys and men grow up seeing women disrespecting each other, is there a tiny part of this that is some sort of sick self-fulfilling prophecy?

Do we come across as a gender who have no respect for each other?  This really is all questioning on my part, honestly.  If women drive each other to "battle" for a man by seeing who can get the most attention to outdo the other women, are we somehow complicit in this?

Back in prehistoric times it was the women who decided which male they would mate with - everyone wanted the strongest male, who would provide for her and her children and make the strongest children.  Has this battle carried on in subtle ways?  Just look at fashion.  Fashion alone makes me think we still do that to a point.

I know that rape is not sexual, it's about power.  But aren't women also about power?  We just do it differently.  Could it possibly be that men are acting out of fear of the collective power we KNOW we have?  

We are a threat to some.  For the men who are raised by families where they're not taught respect, for themselves or anyone else, could it be a blind fear thing they do  and act out that way because they instinctively know it will mess with "power"?

I am in no way excusing it, don't get me wrong.  I'm just trying to understand the mentality behind it.  

Flame me if you like, I'm not saying it's our fault in any way, shape or form, as I just said, I'm trying to understand what's behind it.



#14 **Xena**

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:00 AM

One of my favourite quotes is "The only way for people to not get raped is for people not to rape" I was sexually assaulted and blamed myself because I was drunk and it took me awhile to realise the man assaulting me was not my boyfriend like I was led to believe. I blamed myself because in many ways society set me up to do so.

I hate the inequality facing women. Recently I read that the gap in pay for men and women doing equal jobs equally as well is still not only not equal but going backwards. It's a sad reflection on society when we still can't treat people as equal in this day and age.

It's ****ed.

#15 whale-woman

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:07 AM

I actually disagree with a lot of the women are victims of men sentiment. women are more likely to be victims of sexual violence but overwhelmingly men tend to assault other men. As a woman  out at a pub or club I'm a lot safer from being attacked for looking at a bloke the wrong way than a male acquaintance. Women also DO have a lot of rights that society does not give to men. Look at who invariably ends up with the lions share of child custody in a divorce. As a woman in the West I can wear what I want. No one will thing twice if I go out in a suit or trousers. Try being a male and doing that (wearing a skirt..) Try being a bloke and a SAHD. My parttner tried this and struggled terribly with feeling dismissed/devalued as he wasn't fulfilling societies stricter role requirements for men. Try being the only bloke to attend the 'mothers group,' the Mums & bubs cinema session etc etc. Women live longer, Women do better up until uni. 80% of gender selected babies in the USA are girls. Look at all the EBthreads where people with boys get upset about how boys are viewed by society. I actually think feminism has won women a lot of freedom of choice in the west that are denied men.

I agree that the conviction rate for crimes like rape is apalling and the societal acceptance of 'honor killings' etcetc in parts of the world is disgusting. I disagree with the idea the all cultures are male dominated. There are striong matriachal traditions in many cultures and women do have power which is just expressed in a different fashion. Women ARE 51% of the population and we live in a democracy. WE DO have power.

Edited by whale-woman, 07 January 2013 - 01:13 AM.


#16 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:13 AM

Whale-woman, your experience and thoughts only back up what my boys have just made me think about.

It's instinctive, prehistoric and primeval.  Your DH was abused for being a SAHD because that goes against the status quo that has been around for thousands and thousands of years.

Sweet Jebus, have we not moved on from that?  I don't think we have!

Many individual families have well moved on from that, but I'm not convinced society has.  And I don't care if you talk about western, eastern, northern or southern societies, there are so very few where that sort of thing is culturally acceptable.

Why can't we get past that?



#17 ~shannon~

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:16 AM

QUOTE (CallMeAliG @ 06/01/2013, 11:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because if we aren't an inferior sex - how come there is not some massive uprising and vigilante protest or SOMETHING... that would have put a stop to this behaviour, whenever it happens, wherever it happens, so that men, all over the world, would not think that it was acceptable or that they could get away with it.

I think it is fear mostly. Perhaps women fear the consequences of speaking out or fear of becoming a target for an assault.

QUOTE (BetteBoop @ 07/01/2013, 12:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The world trains women to know how they are responsible for the actions of rapists. Wearing a short skirt and being alone at night means one thing - you are asking for violent assault from a random male. Men are never told to stop raping women. The onus is always on women.
As long as people regard any woman who alleges rape as a s*ut or liar, then the chance of too many other women making complaints is minimised. So men continue to control women through intimidation and fear.
Most women restrict their behaviours in public spaces because of the fear of rape. They consider how they dress and where they go. So the threat of rape keeps us under control to some degree.

This too. Interestingly, on a news report about the rape in India, I saw a protest march of women and there was footage of a group of them holding a sign that said something along the lines of: "Don't teach your daughters not to go out, teach your sons to behave themselves".

This is what we should all be teaching the kids of today.

Edited by ~shannon~, 07 January 2013 - 01:17 AM.


#18 belindarama

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:21 AM

I had a look at the CA penal code definition of rape and a couple of things stood out to me: the definition starts with a stating 'when a person who is not the spouse' which seems to indicate a spouse cannot be charged with rape. Australia got rid of the idea that a husband can't rape his wife sometime ago. Revolting concept.

Also, the article made it sound like the judges were reluctant to overturn the conviction but had no choice as it was a conviction based on an impossible circumstance, ie, it was based on the impersonation and the law requires the perpetrator to impersonate a husband, not a boyfriend. The law does use the term spouse so that may be correct.

However, the definition of rape includes the concept of the inability to consent due to being asleep. If she was asleep, as the article indicates, why couldn't he be prosecuted again using this head of the law? If the prosecutor relied on impersonation as the part of the law that formed the basis of conviction then the conviction just cannot stand, unfortunately. But surely this can be remedied in a new trial?

As to why people aren't angrier or taking action, I think it is fear. For men, even the good ones, it is a fear of a world where they are no longer the dominant force. As much as many men abhor sexual violence real change would bring other changes for them. Deep down most men probably fear that.

For women it is probably fear of backlash. For women in countries with extreme misogny that backlash may take the form of further violence, just look at how uppity women are treated in countries with men like the Taliban in charge. Who wants to get shot in the head for trying to go to school?

For women in developed countries the backlash takes the form of isolation and labeling. It might be good for women but making a fuss is not good for the individual. Challenging a cultural hegemony never goes especially well for the pioneers.

Some women collaborate with the hierarchy in keeping other women downtrodden. Far right Republican women are an example of this, I have some power in this party provided I subscribe to (and attempt to further) governmental control of women's reproductive and and bodily autonomy. This takes the form of being 'pro life' and in some areas now even extends to controlling women's access to contraception. It amazes me that in this day and age an allegedly civilized country has a debate about a woman's ability to control her own reproduction.

Jezebel had an interesting article about how you can't be a pro-life feminist in the last few days. The choices you make about your values, body and reproduction shouldn't be imposed on a single other individual.

I'm probably a bit off topic now but sexual violence isn't the only thing holding women back in many areas. Reproductive health and choice is a big issue for a lot of women also. The ability to safely control the timing and number of children a woman bears is a major factor in a huge leap in a woman's quality of life and ability to make choices for herself.

Edited due to stupid auto correct.

Edited by belindarama, 07 January 2013 - 01:25 AM.


#19 whale-woman

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

LeChatNinjah - I actually think men need to have a movement equivalent to feminism where they demand  equality in the  assumed 'female sphere' of rights that women have. That 'maternity leave' is a right for women up to a year, but a a bloke you can get 2 weeks paternity leave is scandalous. Equality needs to go both ways.

Things also change gradually.

I also think the 'women look after baby, man hunt' idea of primitive societies has been largely debunked. For example, I understand that womens food gathering in hunter gather societies if thought to provide the majority of food, with a small but important contribution from mens hunting.

#20 GlitterFarts

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:30 AM

It starts at birth and it starts even here on EB.

Girls on pink with long hair, boys in blue with short hair. God forbid crossing those lines.

Look at the hate jada pinkett got by standing up for her daughters right to be herself.

If a boy wants to wear a dress, it makes the news. I have seen it here with the sentiment of boys will get picked on if their mothers allow it... Why? Because from birth, we prepetuate the stereotype that being female is the crappier choice, no one WANTS to be a girl, wearing the clothes of the female is wearing the clothes of a lesser being.

Boys can't play with dolls/dressups/'girls toys' because it will make him gay, weak..... A GIRL!

'You run like a girl' 'you cry like a b**ch' 'scream like a girl' .........

Girls are pretty, boys are clever - we praise looks in our girls not acheivements. We praise our sons for being strong, not for their kindness.

Keep those lines strong, and we keep our children and therefore, Our whole society , seperate.

It prevades our whole society and not just ours.

And it doesn't stop at childhood. Women are constantly being told that they are lesser, stupider, more emotional led, etc. how many people here are guilty of supporting a woman being shut down? Of being told to "stop being stupid and listen to ...." "I don't believe what you say happened...."

I also weep for this world when so very few strive to change it.

We need to STOP telling our girls how to NOT be raped and start telling our boys to stop raping - and this all starts with us - us mothers. We are the starting points of our childrens lives.

A family member told me that if i "let" my child shave her head, i would be an abusive mother. Yet when my SON did the same thing, he was praised for being a handsome boy.

It starts with you.

#21 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:16 AM

FreakyPet, it is so inherent here on EB as well.

I've just had a 2 hour chat with a Freemason friend about the roles of men and women.  At fist I was a bit omg, but the more we talked, the more what he said made sense.

There is no way I can explain this conversation that will sound right, lol.  He was all about the role of men and fathers.  It sounded so sexist, but it wasn't.  HE was right.  They are all about bringing up boys the right way.

Oh, dear god, I'm not in a position to properly explain what we talked about.  All I can say is that to most of my feminist friends, you woulda died and wanted to kill him.  But he made sense, and they really are trying to do the right thing.

Dear bum, so weird for me to admit that.





#22 AntiBourgeoisie

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:24 AM

QUOTE (CallMeAliG @ 07/01/2013, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For ages I've wondered wtf is it about women that makes us, in every culture where there is a gender divide, the downtrodden gender.
When I read about the Congo, saw the Sri Lanka killing fields video, and now the case in India, and now this... I'm just so full of disgust for these men.
Many - especially in those cultures - probably feel that they ARE unlucky to be female. And I'm starting to feel that way too.

It's too late to type a coherent response or address your whole post but I do want to respond to the above parts, so I'll just repost someone else's coherent writing.
http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013...lhi-rape-damini

I think it's really important, OP, that we don't just look to the Congo or Delhi. Rape and oppression aren't limited to 'traditional' societies. They happen here too. There's a pretty glaring gender divide here too. You only need to read many threads on EB where women feel anonymous enough to describe the appalling way their partners treat them, usually as a question to see if others think they really do have the right to stand up for themselves.
I know that's not comforting, but we shouldn't allow the demonization of some men in some cultures to rule the news and falsely make Australian men feel good about themselves (as a collective).
What happened to Jyoti Pandey Singh (so glad her family have named her) is horrific; but except for the iron bar, we encourage our own cultures of sport in this country where gang rape regularly occurs. And in all places, violent rape in the exception. But day to day inequality exists everywhere - and personally I think it's more sinister in the West. Indian women know they are not treated equally and know they have to change their culture, but Western women believe (falsely) that we already have, just because we have some minor gains over our Indian sisters.
I don't think we can be all superior and suggest that Indian women need OUR help to rise up against oppression, especially at a time when Indian women are doing that all by themselves, in greater numbers than even protested the violent rape and murder of Jill Meagher, or the rape of the Ohio teen.

ETA - TL; DR women everywhere are oppressed, lets not get so angry about what happens elsewhere that it distracts us from the issues we face at home.


Edited by AntiBourgeoisie, 07 January 2013 - 02:49 AM.


#23 RainRain

Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:00 AM

QUOTE (CallMeAliG @ 06/01/2013, 11:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For ages I've wondered wtf is it about women that makes us, in every culture where there is a gender divide, the downtrodden gender. Surely if we were really 'equal' it would be 50/50? Yes we have less physical strength - but the dominant people in most countries aren't always the physically strongest. And in most physical and mental areas we outshine males - but it's not worth a thing. Sometimes I think it's something to do with reproduction - that we become emotionally and physically vulnerable once we are pregnant and even after we have children, due to our attachment to them (although I can't quite figure out why our attachment to them should be greater than a males). Sometimes I think it's just because we have a hole, that men seem to be absolutely desperate to put their bits in.

ETA. Mods, this should probably be in WDYT but I don't know how to move it...


I just wanted to reply to this statement from a purely scientific perspective. We as animals are driven to first survive and secondly to reproduce...all living things are. It is very energetically expensive for a woman firstly to ovulate (once/month) then to have a child and raise it. In comparison it is relatively less energetically expensive for men to produce sperm and they don't carry the child. Secondly, there is the "mate choice" situation that applies to both males and females. Women want the best genetic option for the very important choice of having a child, men want to have as many genetic offspring as possible.

In the modern world, as a woman that has been very independent and worked in higher management in a male dominated industry, I have experienced this:

As a young woman in my 20s I could excel at climbing the rubbish corporate ladder. As I hit my early 30s my male peers would leave me out of "work footy events" where business is often done. Girls don't get invited to to golf or football matches. They don't get invited to pat each other on the back. I was seeing less qualified males being given positions of responsibility while women were being spoken down to. With almost no exception. When I thought about looking for another job at that age, I was often asked if I had children/planning on having children!!!!!!Wtf! In fact I am trying to have a child. But I have just seen my successful career slip into the "oh, well, she is very experienced, but don't give her too many decision making roles". Makes me soooo angry and sad and really hopeless. It gets so tiresome to not only be good at your job, but having to be better than the men to be thought of as good and constantly fighting against condescending and manipulating comments. Is it worth it after 15 years when I want to focus on having a family? Which ties into my points above about biological processes.

Anyway, this is insignificant compared to the brutality of the other topics you are discussing, but this is my first hand exp where the whole woman's equality thing is bullsh*t.


#24 FiveAus

Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:38 AM

Interesting topic. Too early in the morning for me to be coherent and it's a topic I'd much rather discuss in person, as typing responses doesn't create the emotion.

I agree that often women are treated very badly by other women and it starts young.

But men treat women very badly too. You only need to read the threads here to see how badly women are treated in their own homes by men who purport to love them.

The mentions of rape remind me of a photo I saw posted on Facebook through the week. It was of a young woman in a street protest, topless, with the words "Still not asking for it" scrawled on her chest and belly.
Someone had commented that it was the equivalent of wearing a meat suit and swimming with sharks, and not expecting to be eaten. That caused an uproar.
This was the best response: ('scuse the language)

"We (men) are not ****ing sharks!

We are not rabid animals living off of pure instinct

We are capable of rational thinking and understanding.

Just because someone is cooking food doesn’t mean you’re entitled to eat it.

Just because a banker is counting money doesn’t mean you’re being given free money.

Just because a person is naked doesn’t mean you’re entitled to **** them.

You are not entitled to someone else’s body just because it’s exposed.

What is so ****ing difficult about this concept?"


#25 futureself

Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:47 AM

QUOTE (whale-woman @ 07/01/2013, 01:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That 'maternity leave' is a right for women up to a year, but a a bloke you can get 2 weeks paternity leave is scandalous. Equality needs to go both ways.

I think you're confused here and it's off topic but since you're using words like 'scandalous' about the treatment of the poor men in regards to this I thought it best you brush up on some facts
Either parent, male or female can take 12 months off to be the primary caregiver. It's not called"maternity leave" as you state, it's called Parental leave and it's a right of either gender. The poor men are not being denied a right here so you can stop worrying about them. If More here for you http://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/parental-.../default.aspxrn

The new 2 weeks government Paid leave of 2 weeks you mention is Dad and Partner pay for the non-birth parent and non-primary caregiver and encompasses either gender as it is relevant for SS couples too. It has nothing to do with the former.




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