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When people get things wrong - spin off


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#1 *cough*

Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

So I've posted today that I've handed in the last paper for my masters - in criminal justice. So given I've had a glass of wine and now can call myself a criminologist, I might get on my high horse for the evening. I read something in another thread inferring that if someone has family that are criminals then they might be more likely to be bad news (no actual accusation was made but the conclusion was easy to draw).

That's just wrong and I pointed it out. Genetic theories of criminality just have no basis.

It got me thinking (and I suppose law/justice especially is a common one) but what do people say that you know from studies etc is wrong...?

Nothing gets me more ranty then someone saying criminals should be locked up and the key thrown away... I am a strong believer in rehabilitation and think it is one of the main downfalls of our criminal justice system.

Having said that - I will add a big caveat, while I think rehabilitation is  a good thing, it doesn't apply to ALL criminals (for obvious reasons).

ETA: Amend spelling (obviously 2 champers means I can't spell).

Edited by *cough*, 06 January 2013 - 09:07 PM.


#2 Angelot

Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

Ha.  Where do I start?   biggrin.gif

I'll pick an EB favourite theme, that clergy are out to control people.  Trust me, folks, we have our own lives to worry about and don't need to micromanage yours as well!

In regards to your post, though, *cough*, I wonder if in the thread you're referring to, the person wasn't so much suggesting a genetic theory of criminality as a social association?

#3 *cough*

Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

QUOTE (Ange Vert @ 06/01/2013, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In regards to your post, though, *cough*, I wonder if in the thread you're referring to, the person wasn't so much suggesting a genetic theory of criminality as a social association?


Yes you may very well be right.

Predictors of criminality is a bit of a shopping list (and has both static and dynamic factors - ie prematurity, previous offence history) but I'm still not sure that social association is one of them. I don't think it is a good thing though. There is always agency - people have free will.


#4 FiveAus

Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:59 PM

There is so much posted here that is wrong or misinformed about a particular government department, that it's laughable. I just stay away, cos I work for that department and don't combine work with leisure.

#5 Feral Borgia

Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:59 PM

QUOTE (*cough* @ 06/01/2013, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It got me thinking (and I suppose law/justice especially is a common one) but what do people say that you know from studies etc is wrong...?

The death penalty is the great deterrent of crime. It isn't. And in most cases when people call for it they are looking for vengeance not justice.

Congrats on passing your studies!

#6 sarkazm76

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

Boat People.  That "they" are a huge problem and there are sooo many of them..... when in actual fact there are more people here from illegally overstaying their visas then people arrived illegally by boat.  Drives me batty.
And of course that is just one tidbit - pretty much every tidbit thrown around about this topic is bull.

#7 *cough*

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Lucretia Borgia @ 06/01/2013, 06:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The death penalty is the great deterrent of crime. It isn't. And in most cases when people call for it they are looking for vengeance not justice.

Congrats on passing your studies!


Oh yeah! This one does my head in. the death penalty does NOT deter crime. I hate when this stuff comes up at dinner parties.

#8 Guest_3Keiki_*

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:04 PM

Oh gosh I second the boat people one.
How about that having some appearance of affluence means you are arrogant...

#9 Guest_3Keiki_*

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

hmmmm the death penalty, I don't think it deters crime either, I agree it is more out of revenge but I do think that some crimes are so heinous that society shouldn't be spending money keeping them alive behing bars until they die of natural causes.... oh course I am very biased with this one but still try to keep an open mind.
cough congrats that is a wonderful achievement if I could have my time over I would have loved to look at this...

#10 FiveAus

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE (sarkazm76 @ 06/01/2013, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Boat People.  That "they" are a huge problem and there are sooo many of them..... when in actual fact there are more people here from illegally overstaying their visas then people arrived illegally by boat.  Drives me batty.
And of course that is just one tidbit - pretty much every tidbit thrown around about this topic is bull.



Yes, and the fact that they are "illegal" when it's a basic human right to seek asylum in another country when your life is being threatened in your own.
And the myth that they come here and get all these handouts from the government such as houses, cars, wads of cash and it's just not true. They come here in fear for their lives, they are treated like sh*t, and given no more than someone on unemployment benefits.
We have such a big wonderful country that's practically empty, and we should be saying "Come in, you're safe here, no one will hurt you now".

#11 *cough*

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:27 PM

QUOTE (3Keiki @ 06/01/2013, 07:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How about that having some appearance of affluence means you are arrogant...


This!


#12 Sue Heck

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:28 PM

Can you point me in the direction of the association between criminality and prematurity. I have relative who was working in juvenile justice when my daughter was born prematurely and he said there was a link but that is the first time I have heard it again.

Congratulations on your masters.

#13 Bluemakede

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE (sarkazm76 @ 06/01/2013, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Boat People.  That "they" are a huge problem and there are sooo many of them..... when in actual fact there are more people here from illegally overstaying their visas then people arrived illegally by boat.  Drives me batty.
And of course that is just one tidbit - pretty much every tidbit thrown around about this topic is bull.


This, every time I hear people go on about "illegals" it makes me want to smack my head against the wall. Or the "they must have lots of money to have paid to get on the boat". And well yeah pretty much everything about this topic and refugee's in general.

#14 *cough*

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

QUOTE (Helen Magnus @ 06/01/2013, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can you point me in the direction of the association between criminality and prematurity. I have relative who was working in juvenile justice when my daughter was born prematurely and he said there was a link but that is the first time I have heard it again.

Congratulations on your masters.


Thanks.

Can I caveat (again!) this comment by saying that the lists are very much like a shopping list - no one thing means a someone will be a criminal. Check out Welsh & Olds (writing together) who talk about disadvantage of the early years of life.

Here's a bit of a list cut from my notes.

QUOTE
Child Factors – Prematurity, low birth weight, disability, low intelligence, poor attachment, aggressive behaviours, impulsivity control.

Family Factors – pre-natal, criminality, single mother, single mum, DV, large family size, unemployment, parenting style, inconsistent discipline, neglect.

School context – school failure, peer rejection, poor behaviour management, normative beliefs about aggression, suspension, expulsion numbers.

Life events – divorce and family break up, war or natural disasters, death of a family member.

Community and cultural factors – urban area (not agreed), density of housing, portrayal of violence.

Risk is cumulative – it is the combination of the risk factors that are predictive.

Risk is not destiny.


I tick about 70% of that list and I am far from a criminal. This type of research is very debated. So please don't be offended by it.

There needs to be a lot more longditudinal studies to give us better answers.

You might also want to read

Cambridge Study of Delinquent Development.

Samson and Low – studies. Life in the Making 1993.

Campbell Collaboration - systematic review of raw data.

Hil, R (2000) Governing Through Risk, Children Australia.

Bourgois, P, In search of Respect – selling crack in El Barrio – Cambridge University Press. 1995.

David Kenneday – John Jay College – Stop Don’t Kill me. (premise it will take generations to change the global structural reforms).

Don't Shoot: One Man, A Street Fellowship, and the End of Violence in Inner-City America [Hardcover]

Edited by *cough*, 06 January 2013 - 09:46 PM.


#15 tinkster23

Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:14 PM

I'm a paeds nurse, I see people post SO many things that are just wrong, I try to only speak up when they are giving dangèrous advice, mostly cos I'd go nuts trying to correct all the misinformation.

#16 Leggy

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:31 PM

Yeah, boat people is the one that really gets my goat. That and people who breezily declare that you should just stay home if it's not safe to go out at night and if you do go out, then it's your fault if you're assaulted, and things of that ilk. Because you know, it TOTALLY makes sense that I should no longer have the right to be safely out in the community because someone might breach that right...like saying I should give up the right to own things because someone might steal them :S

(I should add, I'm not talking about common sense "I wouldn't go there after dark", I mean people who think that's the whole answer to the problem.)

#17 Feral Mozzie

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

That the RBA sets interest rates to punish or reward "working families" with mortgages.

Also, I hate it when the media and individuals assume that interest rates up = 'bad' and down = 'good'. There are a significant number of people/groups in society that benefit from interest rate increases - but they are not usually "working families".

Also, what the h*ll is a working family anyway?

#18 snuffles

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

Argh the 'boat people' thing definitely.  Comments like, "I'm against the boat people" - I mean, WTF does that mean??  Where do I even start explaining what is wrong with that?  Sometimes it is so much easier to say nothing at all.

And basic biology errors, like, my fat is turning to muscle, or, if you eat too much sugar you'll become a diabetic...



#19 rosie28

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

This happns to me all the time - I'm a lawyer (commercial) who did a Criminology major. The sheer volume of material people can get wrong, all the while insisting that they're right, floors me. The death penalty, Koori Courts (why should they have their own court, I don't have my own court...um, yes, yes you do!), how basic contracts work, what VCAT is for, immigration policy and law, the list is literally never ending!

#20 Lady Lovely Locks

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE
Boat People. That "they" are a huge problem and there are sooo many of them..... when in actual fact there are more people here from illegally overstaying their visas then people arrived illegally by boat. Drives me batty.
And of course that is just one tidbit - pretty much every tidbit thrown around about this topic is bull.


YES!!!!
I think a big problem is that the general public has no idea/no interest in the number of civil wars that have been waged over the last 40 years, millions of displaced people just trying to find a decent life when the governments have abandoned them, or actively sought to "eliminate"  them. We are a water bound continent, and have such a small problem with illegal immigrants comparing to other western first world countries.....

#21 noi'mnot

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

"So you married a Muslim, why doesn't he make you wear a veil?"

"Peer review is a load of crap - of course the reviewers agree, they're the authors' peers, and peer is another word for friend!"

The ill-informed use of epidemiology to justify, simplify or explain what are actually very complex and dynamic health issues.

Homeopathy. 'Tis bullsh*t.

ETA: And absolutely yes to the "boat people" debate! Illegal my left butt cheek!!!

Edited by noi'mnot, 07 January 2013 - 03:02 PM.


#22 Feral Cancerian

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:04 PM

QUOTE (*cough* @ 06/01/2013, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nothing gets me more ranty then someone saying criminals should be locked up and the key thrown away... I am a strong believer in rehabilitation and think it is one of the main downfalls of our criminal justice system.


Does any rehab actually take place in prisons? All I hear about is criminal behaviour that is constantly punishes but continues to escalate.

#23 Leggy

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:05 PM

Oh lordy, homeopathy.

And the whole "climate change is a conspiracy by the scientists" thing - seriously, wtf? The whole effing point of science is to try to find out what's real, and have you seen what happens to a researcher found to be falsifying data?

#24 rosie28

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:10 PM

I hear you on both counts Leggy!

#25 secret~sammy

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

You can prove anything with statistics .....

(With a side order of media reports that claim conclusions that the reasearchers never did if you look at the published paper)




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