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State chasing sperm donor
for child support


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#1 BetteBoop

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:03 PM

I find it odd that Kansas officials are trying to exploit a loophole in the law to get child support from a man who donated sperm.

Clearly both he and the child's parents agreed that he would have no role in the child's life, including financially but the state disagrees.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breakin...6-1226546787801

Do you think sperm or egg donors should have any responsibility (financial or personal) to offspring conceived with their donations?

#2 FeralFerretOfDoom

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

Financial, definitely not.

But I do think there is a measure of personal responsibility. I think that a child should have the right to at least know who their biological parent is.

#3 Oriental lily

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

This case is different due to them 'doing the deed to conceive'

So his 'donation' was done the traditional way.

Very silly and risky behavior on behalf of the male.

It really only comes down to their word against his.

no legal contracts ect would have been done. Unlike when done through an agency.

But no if done correctly I don't think a doner should have any finacial or emotional obligation.

Which is the norm if done correctly.

#4 Starrydawn

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE (Oriental lily @ 02/01/2013, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This case is different due to them 'doing the deed to conceive'

So his 'donation' was done the traditional way.

Very silly and risky behavior on behalf of the male.

It really only comes down to their word against his.

no legal contracts ect would have been done. Unlike when done through an agency.

But no if done correctly I don't think a doner should have any finacial or emotional obligation.

Which is the norm if done correctly.



Exactly.

A donor through a clinic has no financial obligations. They are ID release in Australia now so at 16-18 information can be obtained on them.

#5 HurryUpAlready

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

QUOTE (WootFerretOfDoom @ 02/01/2013, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Financial, definitely not.

But I do think there is a measure of personal responsibility. I think that a child should have the right to at least know who their biological parent is.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

#6 BetteBoop

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:24 PM

OL, the story refers to an agreement between the donor and the parents. I read that to mean that they have a written agreement. And even if they don't, the parents don't want him to support the child so there's verbal agreement.

It's not clear how he donated. The story only says they didn't go through a licenced doctor. They could have used a turkey baster for all we know.

But assuming they had sex, should that affect his responsibility anyway?

#7 Oriental lily

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:28 PM

At the bottom it said they dd not use artificial insemination?

What's weird is why the mums just didint say 'father unknown' on official documents.

A little snippet that is unlikely to tell the full story.
The whole story is a bit bizarre and odd as it stands.

#8 haton

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:28 PM

It doesn't say they did the deed.  It says they didn't use a doctor.  Potentially very different.  It also doesn't say if they had a legal contract drawn up.

Personal responsibility to meet child and provide some answers sure, at the right time.

Financial repsonsibility no - it was never the intention and the man was never a parent.

#9 Chocolate Addict

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:48 PM

QUOTE
It's not clear how he donated. The story only says they didn't go through a licenced doctor. They could have used a turkey baster for all we know.


Really??.....

QUOTE
A SPERM donor in Kansas is fighting a state effort to force him to pay child support for a child conceived through artificial insemination by a lesbian couple.


Very first line of the article. wink.gif

I have no idea what is the right thing. It sounds like they didn't go through the right process, ie the laws of that state saying IE must be done by a Doctor. You would think they would have gotten that right.

#10 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:26 PM

**** no, he donated with no expectations of responsibility, he has none.

Very different from accidentally donating during a one night stand and going oops.



#11 TheMuriels

Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:38 PM

I don't think donors should have financial or any other responsbilities, but when people don't use a registered clinic then the lines can get blurred.  Written agreements generally don't have any say in a court of law, but they do show intent.  When you go through a clinic, donor and recipients sign legally binding agreements regarding rights and responsibilities.

We have a known donor, but we went througha clinic.  We have come to our own arrangements regarding contact, etc, but if push came to shove, we have a legal agreement that says he has no responsibilities or rights.



#12 marnie27

Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

QUOTE (TheMuriels @ 02/01/2013, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think donors should have financial or any other responsbilities, but when people don't use a registered clinic then the lines can get blurred.  Written agreements generally don't have any say in a court of law, but they do show intent.  When you go through a clinic, donor and recipients sign legally binding agreements regarding rights and responsibilities.

We have a known donor, but we went througha clinic.  We have come to our own arrangements regarding contact, etc, but if push came to shove, we have a legal agreement that says he has no responsibilities or rights.

I agree with this. We have a known donor who is very involved and we went through the clinic to protect him financially and mine and DP's parental rights. We also have a written parenting contract, which while we realise isn't legally binding, clearly states our intentions regarding rights and responsibilities and parental relationships.

I think if anything this case highlights the importance of ensuring same sex families have legal protection in terms of accessing fertility clinic, two mothers/fathers on the birth certificate etc. (Correct me if I'm wrong but Kansas does not allow the second ss parent to be named on the birth certificate?)
I'm also pretty damn sure this would not be happening if it was a straight couple with male factor infertility who used a friend as a sperm donor.

#13 *Ker*

Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:35 AM

I have another biological child due to an egg donation and I am certainly not financially or emotionally responsible for him. I don't have any contact with the parents - they honored that request. My details are kept on file and when he is 18, he can choose to access them and be put in contact with me. I will gladly speak to him about family history but that is the extent of what I offer. I owe him nothing.

I think this is just another ludicrous decision by the American government.

#14 Holidayromp

Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:56 AM

It is silly stories like these that turn potential sperm or egg donors off.  Irrespective of how the 'deed' was done the donor has no rights over the child and that also extends to child support.

Another thing that scares me is the fact the child can get in contact with the donor should he or she chooses at a later time.  Why should they?  If they want to know family details that can be written down and kept at the same place identification is left.  If I donated eggs to help an infertile couple out - the donation is just that I don't want the result of conception contacting me at a later stage wanting information.

Maybe the fact that id needs to be left is why Australia is so woefully short on donors.

#15 Oriental lily

Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:25 AM

Holidayromp I believe that is the exact reason.

However research over the years has found that children born from doners can have psychological distress about their own identity,or lack of.Similar to adopted children.

So I guess it's the welfare of the children versus that of the adults.

I do think a person should have access to their biological parentage.
That does not equal emotional or finacial support.

However imagine if a 18 year person landed on my door step and said DH was his father it could ruffle a few feathers.

Especially if that person WAS lacking in both finances and emotional support.
I doubt most people could dismiss feeling of parental responsibility.

For this reason I don't think DH or I could ever be doners.

Edited by Oriental lily, 03 January 2013 - 07:26 AM.


#16 casime

Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:52 AM

QUOTE
The state contends the agreement between Mr Marotta and the women is not valid because Kansas law requires a doctor to perform artificial insemination.


From the article.

They took shortcuts and now it is coming back to bite them on the butt.   Foolish man, should have done his research, as should the women.   If there aren't protocols in place, what is to stop any man from saying that he was just a sperm donor to avoid paying child support?

I think it's vital that children of donor conception are able to access details of their parentage if they choose when they are of age.  To donate now, there are quite a few hoops to jump through, and counselling sessions to be sure that the person understands what they are doing.  Likewise, there are limitations placed on the number of families that they can create.  These protocols are in place for a very good reason.

#17 Bam1

Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:02 AM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 03/01/2013, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
**** no, he donated with no expectations of responsibility, he has none.

Very different from accidentally donating during a one night stand and going oops.


Its the same thing the couple (donor + actual parents) took the risk when they did not follow the rules for proper sperm donation just like a couple who take the risk when they have sex without contraception.  Both would have no expectations of responsibility but they are liable for it none the less.

The state is only chasing him because the parents are now seeking state assistance, and as they didn't want the state's "help" for the donation, its fair that the father is made to pay his fair share.

Edited by Bam1, 03 January 2013 - 08:05 AM.


#18 BetteBoop

Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

QUOTE (Holidayromp @ 03/01/2013, 06:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is silly stories like these that turn potential sperm or egg donors off.  Irrespective of how the 'deed' was done the donor has no rights over the child and that also extends to child support.

Another thing that scares me is the fact the child can get in contact with the donor should he or she chooses at a later time.  Why should they?  If they want to know family details that can be written down and kept at the same place identification is left.  If I donated eggs to help an infertile couple out - the donation is just that I don't want the result of conception contacting me at a later stage wanting information.


I agree with the first paragraph. Even if he donated in the traditional way  wink.gif  should that make any differene? The agreement was this was sperm only, not parenthood.

But I think children of donors should have a right to information, but no expectation of contact with the donor. Particularly for people who donated before the laws changed to allow kids access to parental information. They donated believing they were committing to nothing more than sperm.

I understand some clinics in the US paid men for sperm donations so I imagine young struggling blokes would have been tempted to donate without much awareness of long term consequences. I'm not sure if this still happens now.

#19 casime

Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:53 AM

At this stage, people that donated before the law changed will still remain anonymous unless they choose otherwise.  Those that donated afterwards will have gone through counselling to discuss the potential future impact.

I think that the most important thing in all of this is the rights of the child conceived by donor conception.  They have the right to information and the rights be able to source that information if they so desire.  Anyone who doesn't agree, certainly shouldn't be making the step of being a donor themselves.

#20 ekbaby

Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

In NSW it doesn't matter whether artificial insemination happens via IUI/IVF in a clinic or simple insemination at home- the donor is not considered a father for legal purposes, and if it's a 2 mum couple, both mums can be recognised on the birth certificate.

If the baby is concieved via sex it is different.

I think this is the way it should be, I don't see why healthy women should have to pay more money, use up medical resources, and have a more invasive and sometimes less effective (provided there are no fertility issues) procedure, in order to achieve a legal outcome.

Of course some couples feel more comfortable using a clinic, or may have additional fertility issues that make it the right choice for them, but I think the choice to use a clinic or to do self-insemination at home should come down to things like the medical needs of the people involved, type of relationship with the donor, distance etc. Self-insemination worked best for us for a number of reasons and I don't see why I should have to have a doctor involved in order for my family to be legitimate.

Part of the issue in the case in the news article is probably that the state welfare system doesn't recognise same-sex couples. Our first child was born before Centrelink recognised same-ex couples and we had to jump through a few hoops in order to get an exemption from seeking child support as the birth mum was seen as a single mum. Having welfare systems recognise families with same-sex couples is a simple way to avoid some of these issues- now Centrelink can chase my DP for child support instead, if we ever separate. And partners incomes are included in assessments of FTB etc.

#21 Oriental lily

Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

The problem is that these children have no say whatsoever on how they were conceived. So who has the right to say what their expectations should be?

You can imagine it must be hard for some donor children to hear yeah he is the name of your dad but don't ever try to contact you because he has no interest in you.

Once again it's similar to adopted children in the feeling that they should 'grateful' they they were adopted and grateful someone wanted them so why should they care who their biological parents are?

Yet we all know how it can tear the heart out of a adopted child when their biological parent wants no contact at all after they finally find them.

I think it's dismissed to easilyin the past as simply being a bit of genetic material.
When for some their heritage and past connected to that genetic material is so much more.

#22 Tigerdog

Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:13 AM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 03/01/2013, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
**** no, he donated with no expectations of responsibility, he has none.

Very different from accidentally donating during a one night stand and going oops.


No different actually if the process wasn't done via the proper channels, regardless of what the parents agreed either verbally or in writing - obviously for the government to even have knowledge about the situation the mother must be chasing some form of government financial support.  I'm not sure what their laws are over there but if it happened here the government would be well within their rights to pursue child support, even as we speak the CSA are tightening up the rules on private child support agreements between parents.

I agree with PP, why the hell didn't they put 'father unknown' on the birth cert?

Edited by Tigerdog, 03 January 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#23 Romeo Void

Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:13 AM

QUOTE (ekbaby @ 03/01/2013, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In NSW it doesn't matter whether artificial insemination happens via IUI/IVF in a clinic or simple insemination at home- the donor is not considered a father for legal purposes, and if it's a 2 mum couple, both mums can be recognised on the birth certificate.

I don't know if I believe that ekbaby.  I only know what happened in QLD when we were doing donor IVF but you absolutely did run the risk of being liable for a child born outside of a clinic environment.  And as well as that, the donor parent (in a home insemination job) could very well be entitled to some sort of access if they demanded it.

#24 Tigerdog

Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:20 AM

QUOTE (Romeo Void @ 03/01/2013, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know if I believe that ekbaby.  I only know what happened in QLD when we were doing donor IVF but you absolutely did run the risk of being liable for a child born outside of a clinic environment.  And as well as that, the donor parent (in a home insemination job) could very well be entitled to some sort of access if they demanded it.


I don't believe it either, otherwise any woman who fell pregnant after a one-night stand could claim this.  How can government prove that a donor relationship even exists, merely on the say-so of the mother?  However why would you bother, when all you have to do is put 'father unknown' on the birth cert??

My SIL went through informal insemination with her girlfriend, they broke up before anything could eventuate from this thank God, as we all warned her that if they'd had a child and split up she would have absolutely no rights to that child as her name wouldn't be on the birth certificate (no recognition of same-sex parents).  You're really playing with fire if you choose to do things this way.

Edited by Tigerdog, 03 January 2013 - 09:25 AM.


#25 BetteBoop

Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

QUOTE (Oriental lily @ 03/01/2013, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The problem is that these children have no say whatsoever on how they were conceived. So who has the right to say what their expectations should be?


I guess we have a say at the point of dispute. When the expectations of the donor are the exact opposite to those of the child, then that's where the legislation comes in.

But the laws change.

QUOTE (Tigerdog @ 03/01/2013, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No different actually if the process wasn't done via the proper channels, regardless of what the parents I agree with PP, why the hell didn't they put 'father unknown' on the birth cert?


One of the women developed an illness and couldn't work. Apparently, she was ordered to give the donor's name or the state wouldn't pay her benefits. I don't think he was on the BC.




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