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Same sex marriage


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#1 Copacetic

Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:47 AM

I had an infuriating conversation with my SIL yesterday about this topic and I'm just hoping that some EBers can help me understand her point of view.

Her view was that a marriage was something between a man and a woman, before god, who could then go on and make babies.  That therefore meant that same sex couples could not marry because the church would not recognise it, and they couldn't naturally make a baby.

I said, then in that case, according to her view of what marriage was, I wasn't properly married, because god never even entered into it for me. I was married in a park, with a celebrant. Follow on with some rubbish about that not being right, because she believes in god, and he is everywhere, therefor if she was at my wedding then so was he.

I then said that same sex couples had fertility options available to them much in the same way that man/woman couples do, so that takes away the problem of being unable to have children and she then decided that SS couples could have and agreement but they couldn't have a marriage because a marriage is unique. Cue me even more frustrated, saying that actually, a SS couple is far more unique than a traditional man/woman couple. She doesn't see the problem with just calling it a partnership, but that just seems so 2 dimensional to me. Like a business arrangement or something.

I know that most here will agree with SS marriage, but those that don't, please help me see her side of this? I just don't understand the problem.



#2 Feral like a Lemon

Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:59 AM

QUOTE (Copacetic @ 02/01/2013, 07:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Her view was that a marriage was something between a man and a woman, before god, who could then go on and make babies.  That therefore meant that same sex couples could not marry because the church would not recognise it, and they couldn't naturally make a baby.


And yet so many hetrosexual couples do not marry in a Church, so many beliefs besides Christianity, so many married couples struggling to conceive and if she is into biblical type marriages then surely she does not object to her husband taking another wife or two and a few concubines...

Sorry, can't help.



#3 bokchok

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:05 AM

yeah ditto to the PP...i get very frustrated at views like that as i disagree...its ridiculously black and white

frankly, no one should dictate who you marry so why dictate the gender. what is key is its for love and the right reasons, not about being of the opposite bloody sex.

she is narrow-minded and probably the kind who believes you sin away but you say forgive me and pray and you a-ok.

#4 Jane F. Jetson

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:27 AM

One argument I have seen a lot is that some people, including a lot of Christians, see men and women as having a particular role in a marriage. This is generally that the man is the dominant party and "lovingly" makes all the decisions and guides his wife, while his wife does all the submitting and doing as she's told.

A SS marriage therefore can't work, because with two men in a relationship how can one automatically be the head of the family simply because he has testicles?

It's certainly not an argument I believe in - and if SS marriage was to actually undermine this kind of marriage as constantly claimed I am all for it - but it's one I've heard posed.

#5 SophieBear

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:29 AM

My sister believes the same thing. I disagree wholeheartedly especially considering that many married couples choose never to have children too and married couples may have fertility issues.

I think the religion aspect of this argument is a cop out. Marriage is not about religion anymore and many different religions can marry. This isn't a solely Christian tradition.

I can't elaborate on her views as they aren't mine but the 'God and Children' view is a shared one which in my view is a opinion for when there is no other valid argument.

#6 JillyJellyBean

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:36 AM

In my opinion marriage has very little to do with religion. (Or why would an atheist bother?) I woulodnt even bother arguing the point with someone who has already amde up there mind. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions, but know that your not alone is being cross at this short sighted view point.

#7 Bart.

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:37 AM

QUOTE (Jane Jetson @ 02/01/2013, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One argument I have seen a lot is that some people, including a lot of Christians, see men and women as having a particular role in a marriage. This is generally that the man is the dominant party and "lovingly" makes all the decisions and guides his wife, while his wife does all the submitting and doing as she's told.

A SS marriage therefore can't work, because with two men in a relationship how can one automatically be the head of the family simply because he has testicles?

It's certainly not an argument I believe in - and if SS marriage was to actually undermine this kind of marriage as constantly claimed I am all for it - but it's one I've heard posed.

This is BS for the majority of Christians and I'm sad you've lumped all billion+ believers into one package.  Some families may run like this, but certainly not all.

I am a Christian and I have no problem with SS marriage. ohmy.gif  I know, fall down in a swoon.

I think where your friend is coming from is that the institution of marriage, as a term and an entity, should be between a man and a woman.  For those who are same-sex, perhaps there should be another form of unity?  I had a gay friend tell me once that this is what he believed.  I'm not saying I agree with his stance, but nonetheless, it may be an explanation?

(edited for grammar)

Edited by Bartholomew, 02 January 2013 - 07:40 AM.


#8 Feral Borgia

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:38 AM

For the life of me I can't see why gay couples can't get married in a civil ceremony by a marriage celebrant (same as what my DH and I did)..... I guess it's up to the church to decide whether or not they will allow their priests or ministers to marry same sex couples, I imagine there are same sex couples who are religious and who would wish to be married in church..I think they have a battle on their hands but beyond that I have no further comment as I am not religious.....but as far as civil ceremonies go, god (or any other deity) simply should not come in to it.

#9 Jane F. Jetson

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

QUOTE (Bartholomew @ 02/01/2013, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is BS for the majority of Christians and I'm sad you've lumped all billion+ believers into one package.  Some families may run like this, but certainly not all.

I am a Christian and I have no problem with SS marriage. ohmy.gif  I know, fall down in a swoon.


So am I. If you actually read my post, you'll see that I've written

QUOTE
some people, including a lot of Christians


How you've managed to interpret this as "all billion+ believers" (including myself) I have no idea.

#10 KT1978

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

It doesn't offend me, the reason I'm not married is that I see it as a religious ceremony with legal recognition. The word marriage is religious to me.

I'm not against gay marriage either but can see why some people think the distinction should be made between the religious and the legal. Call it r something that has no religious connotations for hetero and ss couples and leave religion to do whatever they believe in.

I don't think either side needs to agree to believed in the same thins for this to happen so I guess that's why those views aren't overly offensive to me.



#11 Ingrid the Swan

Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:56 AM

I think the whole issue is an emotional rather than a logical one,  and that people resort to whatever arguments they can to justify their emotional position. They come to a position based on emotion and come up with reasons to argue against others with the different emotional position later. That could be why a lot of the positive arguments - on both sides - can sound a little weak objectively.

Also the reason why you can't expect many people to change their mind on the issue even after you point out their clear logical failures.

It is infuriating when people invoke a God I don't believe in to justify treating my relationship as lesser-than - and worse when people who support gay marriage are blamed by extremists as "incurring God's wrath" and thus inciting natural disasters and massacres. But ultimately enough people believe in gay marriage that it's only a matter of "when", so best to try rise above it.

Although if you do want to blow her mind, point out that you know of someone - being me - who had her very Catholic PIL and GMIL front and centre at her non-legally-recognised wedding in Australia as well as a Christian friend bear witness to her legally recognised wedding overseas - so that means God must have been at both of my weddings).

#12 Angelot

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:03 AM

I've walked both sides of this; I used to be against same sex marriage but now think that it's something a society should be free to do.

At the end of the day, the opposition to gay marriage is a natural law argument; in this view, same sex attraction is unnatural.  To give it the legitimacy of marriage would be to equate it with opposite sex attraction, which is "natural."  I think the weakness here is in the take on what is "natural," but there is a long history of thinking this way with much underpinning and it is hard to pull apart.  

Just as recently as Christmas day, for example, my mother was comparing same sex attraction to a birth deformity and lamenting that society would do all it could to fix one but not the other.  She couldn't get her head around the idea that it wasn't a sort of psychological defect.

#13 epl0822

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:08 AM

I'm not really sure what your purpose is in posting this. You already disagree with your SIL so no matter what anybody says, you're not going to see any sense in it.

People form opinions based on values they hold dear. I don't think it's necessarily a religious thing - if you go to a lot of Asian countries you will find that many people, regardless of religion, are totally against gay marriages. I have also read arguments from members of gay rights groups and/or people who themselves are homosexual, who are against same sex marriages for whatever reason (I read about one gay person - can't remember who it was sorry - who said they actually do believe in their hearts that kids need a mother and father; another gay academic said legalising same sex marriages will lull people into a false sense of security about progress in gay rights and that legalising SS marriage was not the ultimate conclusion to their efforts to eliminate hate crimes and so on).

Or if somebody says "I don't think gay marriage should be legal because it is wrong in the eyes of God," they have a set of religious based values that you don't agree with. It all boils down to, they value this and you value something else. It frustrates me when people claim to be open minded but don't accept that other people are entitled to subscribe to their religious values because it contradicts the values they hold dear.

In short, you and your SIL are never going to come to am amicable middle point agreement. She believes in something and you believe something else. She has already given you her reasoning and you've rejected it. Just leave it at that.

#14 Ianthe

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:26 AM

It does go back to Genesis and the woman being made for man and that being part of God's perfect plan. So I understand that from that perspective. But I don't agree with the stance that Australia's marriage act can't be changed.

And we live in an imperfect world. As Christians we are reminded of that continually. And I see marriage in terms of legalities as a modern construct. So to me it is completely irrelevant to me that marriage is re defined legally. And I think it is abhorrent in a modern society that any couple who are committed to each other cannot marry if they choose too.

I worry for my church. I worry for their relevance in the future. I think it is important to uphold Scripture but so much of the stances the church takes is so irrelevant to most Australians. And while I believe God can work within anyone, I think some churches are making it hard for people to listen to the gospel and for people to be in fellowship with Christians.

#15 Feral Mozzie

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:38 AM

My Dad holds this view, and he is a staunch athiest. I just don't get it.  shrug.gif

His argument is that children should have a mother and a father, and that although we can't stop gay people from having children, we shouldn't make it socially acceptable. There is so much wrong with this that it makes my blood boil, but it's a different argument to some of the others I have seen at least.

#16 Canberra Chick

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:41 AM

Basically a small group of people take marriage to only apply to a wedding with a religious aspect, which therefore has to be heterosexual given the churches' stance re: homosexuality. The rest of us see the word 'marriage' and assume it refers to a formal (can be secular or religious) ceremony in which two people who love each other formally declare this in the presence of witnesses.

It's the same word, but it means two different things. Given that legally recognised marriages do not require any religious component, I think the second definition has to be the correct one and therefore it can be taken to include homosexual couples too. In fact the marriage act as it was allowed for this within its scope, which is why that old bugger Howard got it changed.

#17 Floki

Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:23 AM

Some people will never see SS marriage as something that should be allowed. Your SIL is one of them.

One thing that does bug me though - SS couple does not = infertility.

#18 Musk Sticks

Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:38 AM

.

Edited by Musk Sticks, 05 March 2013 - 06:49 PM.


#19 Feral*Spikey*

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:02 AM

One of the most interesting things to do, is to ask a person why they hold that belief.

For example, asking about why it must be a man and a woman. The answers, are either "because I said so", or they run the biology/history argument. If they run the "because I said so", you have an opportunity to explore why they are so creeped out about marriage or gay people - despite their claims of being non-homophobic. Then you can follow up with exploring why a person might want to get married - and then point out that each person has different reasons, and none are invalid.

If they run the biology argument, you can always point out that a person's fertility and biology has never been dependent on marriage (women get periods before they get married, indicating their fertility), and in this secular country, plenty of single parents exist. Marriage is not a requirement for reproduction. Similarly, infertile couples and couples who are intentionally childless, would not 'qualify' for marriage, because they're biologically unable or unwilling to have children. This raises the question of whether divorce ought to be compulsory.

As for the history/legal/religious argument, well the new chick (I'm guessing she's not Australian as she has no clues about how marriage operates here) pretty much sums up the bogus arguments.

Marriage is a LEGAL, not a religious construct. It always has been, because it is about the transfer of property from one family to another. It has never had anything to do with 'allowing people to live together in a socially acceptable way'. In the UK, prior to the Victorian era, plenty of people lived together in 'matrimony', who had not undergone a religious ceremony. They belonged to the rich, not the dirt poor peasants, or the serfs.

In the UK (post conqueror, pre-modern history) most marriages were not conducted in a church - only those of significantly wealthy landowners were. Why you ask? Because they were giving their property rights over the woman (and the attached inheritance rights) to the spouse. That's right, women = property,  this was a property transaction. Nothing religious about it at all. The Church, such as it was, was literate and was able to keep those records. Of course, the fact that they also wanted to profit from this connection shouldn't be dismissed either - look at all the folk who've been convinced marriage is a religious thing as an example of PR work. Oh, and marriage pre-dates the Torah, little Bobita. wink.gif

The property thing was highlighted in other societies where same sex marriages were recognised. Nothing to do with religion, everything to do with property arrangements.

Now, none of the history or legal aspects prevent the marriage or religious recognition of a marriage being between a man and a woman.

What it does point out, is there is no reason, historically or religiously, to prevent the secular and legal marriage of a same sex couple. The religious homophobe types can continue to ignore the rest of the secular world, and we can blithely ignore them.

Oh yeah, and the slippery slope argument - well marriage itself is the source of the angst. It's those marriages between men and women that are making the gayz all "me too". If we want to stop that, then we should simply ban the reason they want equal rights in the first place, and annul each and every marriage in this country. I lived with DH for several years prior to getting married, so I'm comfy with living together as an unmarried couple. wink.gif

#20 NotRocketScience

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:05 AM

OP I would quit. She sounds very closed minded to me. People like your SIL will never see your point of view, unfortunate as that is.

#21 76 feral others

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

Yes, people are entitled to another opinion. BUT, the "against SS" opinion affects other's lives and the "for SS" opinions have no ill affect on the oppositions lives whatsoever.

So how about you guys go on living your lives and butt out of things that have no ill affect on you and let people live their lives how they see fit.

#22 Feral Borgia

Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Gloriosa @ 02/01/2013, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, people are entitled to another opinion. BUT, the "against SS" opinion affects other's lives and the "for SS" opinions have no ill affect on the oppositions lives whatsoever.

So how about you guys go on living your lives and butt out of things that have no ill affect on you and let people live their lives how they see fit.

Agree 100%.

And the "but allowing ss marriage would devalue my marriage which I hold sacred etc etc" is a false argument IMO....you know what your relationship is worth, and nothing anyone else does, or doesn't do, can change that.

#23 76 feral others

Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (Lucretia Borgia @ 02/01/2013, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agree 100%.

And the "but allowing ss marriage would devalue my marriage which I hold sacred etc etc" is a false argument IMO....you know what your relationship is worth, and nothing anyone else does, or doesn't do, can change that.


Oh phew. That was really hard to word. Glad it made sense.

QUOTE
They will lose, eventually. And I will laugh at them. Also maybe point.


LOL Love it.




#24 Froyo

Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:06 AM

It makes no sense. How can marriage be defined/ controlled by a religion it pre-dates?

#25 Tesseract

Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

Look I think basically your SIL reacting from an emotional standpoint and then retrospectively fitting an argument. But that's kind of how we all argue - supporting SS marriage fits within my lefty-equal-rights mindset, so I support it - the arguments I use are just dressing really. I just *feel* that it is right, just as others feel that it is wrong.

So in that sense sometimes there is really no point in arguing with someone.

However I did manage to bring a family member of mine around on this issue. I argued every point (the same way you have been) for months and months. I broke down every one of their arguments with reason and logic. Eventually it came out that really they just didn't like the idea of teh butt s*x and that's why they didn't support SS marriage. I was flabbaghasted. Honestly that had never entered my head that this would be their problem. Once they voiced it themselves they realised themselves that what other people do in their bedrooms is none of their business and everyone (including straight people) has different preferences in the bedroom. When they realised their own reasoning they changed their mind themselves, and now are full guts supporters of SS marriage.




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