Jump to content

5YO turns into the devil. Behaviour and discipline
Here for more traffic :)


  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#1 melbgirl

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

I am so very touched by all your replies.

Thank you all for your time (and there was a lot of time requied for this epic post!)

I have decied to take all your advice and discuss it with DH.

You have all given me a lot to think about and you were all so nice about it, just what I needed tonight.

Thanks for the hugs, I always thought they were a bit strange, but I really appreciated them tonight original.gif


I'll be back to let you all know how I went original.gif

Edited by melbgirl, 28 December 2012 - 09:42 PM.


#2 sakura73

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

I don't have any answers but I wanted to reply and say you and your DH sound like you are doing an amazing job in hard circumstances.

It seems like he has some fears perhaps about bed. Can you talk to him about them?

And perhaps, instead of removing privileges and toys for bad behaviour, switch focus and reward good behaviour with a star chart or something? Since he does know how to behave at some times?

But I also think you might want to chat to your GP about this.

Good luck, OP.

#3 libbylu

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:32 PM

Wow - that sounds totally tough.
I can really only think of two things.
1. He sounds irrational and overtired at bedtime. Perhaps he needs to go to bed an hour or half an hour earlier so he is still calmer and not overtired.
2. We also had a lot of bedtime battles but they were caused by something different - our DS has separation anxiety and was genuinely panicky about me leaving him alone in his bedroom, which was the cause of the playing up - all he wanted was me to lie in bed with him and would go bonkers (like your DS) if I left the room.  We got through this with POSITIVE reinforcement rather than taking things away that he already has (like you we had tried that and it failed), we allowed him to add five marbles into a small jar each night as he got into bed and when he filled the jar he could pick a new toy from the shop.  For each bit of bad behaviour after lights out we would take out a marble (marbles are easier to take back than stickers and they get great satisfaction in dropping them in the jar).  It took him about 3 or 4 days to get the hang of it, and then he really got into filling up that jar and there was a massive improvement.
I wish you the best of luck - it sounds really tough.

Edited by libbylu, 28 December 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#4 chucklebury

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:37 PM

Op I don't have a anything helpful o add except big hugs
Also ave you checked him for worms? Is he maybe doing it for dads attention if he is not seeing him all day?

#5 Mamacass2

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

OP I have been through this with my DS who is 6, we went through about 2 years of this behaviour with him hitting and kicking mostly DH. I could almost write your post word for word. I think with my DS it was because a new baby came along who is now almost 3 and he was jealous. She would and still does go to bed after him so I think he felt he was missing out on something. As another poster has suggested I brought his bedtime forward by half an hour because I thought he may be too tired to cope with things. I also have a very set in stone bedtime routine for him. He has a two minute alarm on his dad's phone before he goes down to his room, we then do teeth and toilet, a reader and story, then we have five minutes more. I instigated five minutes more element to his routine at the suggestion of a couple of other mums a year or so ago where it is his special before sleep time with just me and we chat about the day and stuff, sometimes he likes a tickle or a made up story instead of the chat. This has all helped, he also now seems to mostly grown out of it. He has not thrown a bedtime tantrum/meltdown for a long time and he only sometimes comes out of his room now after we have said goodnight. Anyway I hope this has reassured you a bit that other people are going through the same thing. I have shed many a tear over bedtime, it is so frustrating! Good luck.

#6 daybreaker

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

My 5 year old DS is starting to do the same thing at bedtime, not getting physical or loud, but constantly getting out of bed for no reason. I've found that after being at preschool or having a physically demanding day he was much better at going straight to sleep. But since school holidays began he's been worse, even thought he is still tired, but I suppose not exhausted.

So 2 ideas:
1. take him for a long walk, to a friend's house or to the beach etc ( as you have said no more park visits) to tire him out.
2. When my DS first started misbehaving at bedtime 2 years ago ( he has been good until recently) I was told to just quietly and without any talking put him back to bed as soon as got out of the room. No interaction is the key I think as they get no reaction from you and I presume eventually get bored of it. It did work after some persistence.
Hope that helps, my DS is driving me mad lately at bedtime too!

Edited by Ines07, 28 December 2012 - 08:46 PM.


#7 kay11

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

We actually went to counselling for my DD (4) and the counsellor warned us that this type of punishment just escalates (he knew a girl who had lost all her toys, her bedding and the carpet on her floor..). He was very much into natural consequences - which it sounds like you've been doing - misbehave at the park means you leave the park early etc. And also lots of positive reinforcement.

The key for us was what we called 'practice' - so you don't just punish but actually practice and model the behaviour afterwards - eg my daughter would deliberately make loud noises when I was trying to get her little brother to sleep. I made her practice playing quietly on her own while I pushed her toy pram around with a teddy bear.

#8 melbgirl

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

Thank you all so much for your replies (and reading my post, think I win the prize for the longest post!)

Love the marble idea and the reward rather than punishment as that isn't working.

Will look into the worms original.gif
Didn't know they can make them misbehave.

Agree it does have something to do with attention from DH, but even if he spends the whole day with him he carries on.
It has been worse the last 3 nights an DH has been home early every night!

Don't think it is anything upsetting him as it doesn't happen every night.  



#9 Frau Farbissina

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

Have you tried varying the routine? Perhaps a shower instead if bath, story in the lounge room instead of bed? Earlier bed time as PP suggested. Is he allowed to play in his room? I let my 5 yr old read or play in his room after we've done the story, and he usually then goes off to sleep himself when he is ready. Does he have a night light or do you leave a lamp on, or is he in the dark? Hope some of these ideas help. Battling with kids behaviours like this is so wearying!! Good luck!

#10 Lifesgood

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

Yes it does sound within the range of 'normal' 5 y/o behaviour OP. Several thoughts come to mind.

Firstly your DS' behaviour sounds reasonable similar to my DDs when she was 5, although your DS may be a bit more physical in his reactions than DD was.

Secondly, it does sound like your DS may be experiencing a testosterone surge (which happens periodically in boys from quite a young age).

Finally, I think if you are consistent and calm with him eventually this stage will pass. Decide on your course of action for each situation in advance and stick to it - from what you have described above it sounds like you are already doing this. Try not to react too strongly, stay calm (easier said than done I know, but keep trying). If you use a naughty corner make it somewhere that you don't have to witness his shenanigans. I always put DD in her room and closed a few doors so I didn't have to listen/see her tantrums. After about 15 minutes I always went in with a cool drink of water and a wet flannel and cuddled her, wiped her face and neck and gave her some water. Then we would just cuddle while she calmed down and then talk a little bit about what went wrong.

Don't over-analyse the behaviour and what triggers it, you'll drive yourself mad. Just deal with each situation consistently and firmly, always following up with love and reassurance and you'll all come out the other side.

#11 melbgirl

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

Mamacass2, the most heartbreaking thing is we already have a wonderful bedtime routine and he is perfect all the way through it.  Then he turns devil!

Bedtime is 6/6.30 and I am also quite strict with the routine.

Like the idea of the long walk.

Kay11, I had just said to DH that from now on we will give firm instructions the first time but then just put him back to bed with no reaction.

I am sure he is just after a reaction.

Thanks again for your replies and kind words.

I actually feel good about this for the first time in a while, something cathartic about writing it all down.

Thanks for listening.

#12 kay11

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:05 PM

Does he need to go to bed so early? My 4yo goes to bed at 7:30pm (doesn't have a day sleep). Might he just not be ready to go to sleep yet? Are there some quiet evening activities you could all do as a family that he might enjoy?



#13 lizzzard

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

I just wanted to pop in and mention that if you want to seek help from a psychologist, you can get a referral from your GP for a mental health plan which will cover a large percentage of the cost of 6 sessions, and you may be able to get another 6 sessions after that original.gif

#14 melbgirl

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

[/size]Frau Farbissina We did vary the routine a few weeks backwith no change unfortunately.  So we areback to the old one. Now with the added walk after dinner, poor DD won’t likethat!

We tried letting him play in his room, but after destroying bookstonight that won’t be happening for a while.

LifesGood, how I wish this is within the range ofnormal!  

I also like the idea of the cold flannel and water.  

The love and reassurance is getting harder to come by aftereach outburst and I am hating myself a little more each day.

Kay11, I have tried a later bedtime but things are farworse.  He even told me tonight (beforethe outburst that he only wanted 1 song as he was tired), then boom.  So I am more inclined to think that we mayneed to make sure he is in bed by 6pm.



[size="3"]


#15 lamarque

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

Wow OP, what a tough time you're going through.   sad.gif

We went through a backchat kind of power struggle with DS when he was 8.  We purchased the book 'Setting Limits with your Strong-Willed Child' by Robert J MacKenzie.

He talks about the 'family dance' and how a strong willed child likens the 'family dance' to a good soap opera.  Entertaining to watch and participate in!  A reward for the strong willed child is winning the battle but also watching the parents participate in the soap opera and getting lots of negative attention from it.  It's up to you to stop the dance before it begins.

We purchased the book through Amazon and the first few days were hard but once we stopped engaging in the dance things gradually improved.

Can you and your DH be at home together for a week to try and sort it out?  You mentioned the time out and how you had him there for 45 mins but when he was released the behaviour didn't change? I presume you then changed tactics?  If you did, I'd reconsider.  He won the time-out battle because you gave up on that tactic.  If it takes you and your DH all day, I'd stick with it, especially given the fact he is escalating it physically and verbally (swearing).   Don't do it on your own, you will go crazy.  Tag teaming would be beneficial with the 'free' partner getting out of the house for a while.  

Anyway, it helped us immensely.  Goodluck OP.

ETA - just saw your post above.  Remove everything from the bedroom that is of value until good behaviour returns.

Edited by lamarque, 28 December 2012 - 09:22 PM.


#16 melbgirl

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

Lizzard, thanks for that, I will look into it.  I was told the best I could expect was $20 off each session, so still $80 a pop.

#17 surprizzzed

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

We have experienced a lot of similar behaviour (unfortunately for us not limited to bed times sad.gif) At the root of it for my DS it has been anxiety and he is now taking medication which has helped a lot.  

But in your case I would look at other methods of reducing anxiety first - maybe re-arranging furniture, having a new teddy in the bed, a new blanket, a body pillow, music, night light, even sharing a room with a sibling.

I would go see a peaditrician too.

#18 **Tiger*Filly**

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

----

Edited by Tyrone Finkelmeyer, 26 March 2013 - 08:40 PM.


#19 Expelliarmus

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:25 PM

I think the bedtime is too early.

I agree with a reward system in place of a punishment system.

And I think part of it is to do with DH.

I have a friend who, when her DD was about 3, was having a great deal of difficulty with her DD pooing her pants all the time. She and I talked and talked and talked about what exactly was happening and eventually I picked up a pattern that she had not. Her DH had been having a busy time at work and was leaving before DD woke and home fairly late. Bedtime/tiredness was an angle I explored with her and the bedtime had been set at 8:30 because any earlier the child didn't see her father at all.

What was happening was that if she pooed Dad would get home, demand to know if she'd pooed today and then go on a lecture about it to the child. Spent a good 20 minutes/half an hour going on at the child. If she hadn't pooed Daddy went into the den to read the newspaper and unwind.

So she was pooing herself to get Daddy's attention. If hse pooed, Daddy interacted with her. If she didn't he never saw her - not properly.

The child stopped pooing her pants when Daddy came home from work and spent 20 minutes playing with her every single day regardless of her behaviour during the day.

Is there something like that going on in your house? If DS is not 'bothering' when DH is not home I would bet there is something in there where/why he is trying to get Daddy's attention.

The early bedtime of 6/6:30 could be massively contributing to it as for most full time working dads that would give about half an hour of time to see the kids after work. And that time is going to be full on eating/bathing/routine oriented instead of quality time just chilling.

Really explore what is happening the whole day and week to see what connection there could possibly be.

Good luck.


#20 melbgirl

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:25 PM

Lamarque, that is DS it a T.  He really gets a thrill out of it.

Thanks for the book suggestion, I have also just bought the Explosive Child.

Unfortunately DH is not in aposition to have time off at this time of year.



#21 lamarque

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

QUOTE (melbgirl @ 28/12/2012, 10:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lamarque, that is DS it a T.  He really gets a thrill out of it.

Thanks for the book suggestion, I have also just bought the Explosive Child.

Unfortunately DH is not in aposition to have time off at this time of year.

Bummer.  Anyone else that could take your other child off your hands for a day?  Sorry, I haven't relaunched the topic to see your OP but thought you mentioned another child.  

It will be very hard to deal with by yourself and it sounds like you're at the end of your tether (as anyone would be).  OR, get the book and give it a go, you can always come back and scream at us in the venting section.   bbighug.gif


#22 melbgirl

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:33 PM

I may try a later bed time, but really don't think that is the issue.  Both of my kids are up at 6.30/7 regardless of what time they go to bed.

I really do think that DH is the key to this but he doesn't get home until after 8.30 every night (with the exception of the past few days which is not usual).

I don't think keeping DS up past 8.30 for him to see his dad is the answer.

I do know that if DS goes to bed after 7pm, I get the outbursts even when DH is not home.

Most nights DS goes to sleep so much more easy, we may have a couple of coming out episodes, but not the full on outbursts.


#23 lamarque

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Madame Catty @ 28/12/2012, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You need to stop the punishments right now.  They are NOT working.  And I think they are far too harsh and inappropriate.


I'm not so sure, I think the majority of the issues for the OP is the physical and verbal issues, not the leaving the park early issue.   She has been called a ****ing idiot by her 5 year old a few times, her DH has been slapped across the face, she has almost been punched in the nose, she has been scratched, hit with a teddy and then had it thrown at her head and to top it off she has been spat on with attempted biting.

OP, you're probably exhausted by the end of the day too so I can see how hard it would be to be consistent and firm when you are doing the majority of the parenting.

#24 kay11

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

If my husband gets home shortly before bed my kids get wound up and ratty because they want his attention and want to play with him and miss him.

I also agree that a week of no playground is really harsh for not wanting to leave. The psychologist said that the punishment has to be immediate and good behaviour should be able to win back something taken away. Maybe try using the playground as a reward for good behaviour?

#25 lynneyours

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

DD1 at 4 was getting that way too.  I figured out she doesn't react well to punishment, but thrives on rewards, praise and cuddles and making me proud of her.  
So now, I try to praise everything good she tries or does, and tell her I am disappointed in her if she behaves atrociously.  It's been a massive improvement.

Also - if she is hungry/blood sugar low, she generally acts badly.

We've also learnt that she is scared of the dark.  She has a nightlight, her sister in the room, and is now allowed to leave the lamp on, and quietly "read" books in her bed, laying down.  She is not allowed out except to the toilet.  She will do this til tired, then close her eyes and go to sleep by herself, where it used to be hours of fighting.  

I think there are lots of other good pieces of advice too, but these work for us.  

She is 4.6 now and wakes round 8-8.30am and goes to sleep between 7.30-8pm with no nap in the daytime.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

What you need to know about ovulation tests

Most people who are trying to get pregnant know that the best time to conceive is in the few days after ovulation.

Surviving a miscarriage at sea

A cruise with your family is among the most absurd settings for a miscarriage, but it is certainly not the worst.

Mum of three denied tubal ligation because she's 'too young'

A 22-year-old woman who is pregnant with her third child has had her requests for a tubal ligation denied because doctors believe she is too young.

Slapped cheek syndrome a danger for pregnant women

When a pregnant woman is infected, the likelihood that her foetus will be infected is about 50 per cent.

The signs and symptoms of ovulation

If you're hoping to conceive, one of the most important things you need to know about is ovulation.

We all know 'mum guilt' - but what about 'dad guilt'?

I remember the first time I felt mum guilt, within days of having my first child. The feeling was so intense I rang my own mum to debrief, hoping she'd tell me I wouldn't feel this way very often.

Kristen Bell urges mums to be their own superhero

When it comes to motherhood, actress Kristen Bell is her own superhero and she thinks other mums should be too.

Pram review: GB Pockit travel stroller

In a world of ever-shrinking gadgets, it's no surprise prams are getting smaller. We put the record-holding GB Pockit through its paces.

The beautiful Bombol Bouncer is back

The gorgeous Bombol Bouncer is back - and boasts two chic new colours to boot.

Gadgets and accessories for wine lovers

Looking for a gift for the wine lover in your life - or just something for yourself?

Free ticket offer

Pinky Mckay joins us again at the Essential Baby & Toddler Show presented by Blackmores with her expert baby settling advice. Register now for your free ticket.

The adventure doesn't have to stop: here's how to travel with baby

The best part about our outdoor adventures? It makes my husband and I better parents, since we're happier while adventuring.

Woman crashes car to save mum and baby's life

A good samaritan saved a mother and baby from being seriously injured by crashing her own car into theirs.

Should you tell your boss about your postnatal depression?

Returning to work after having a baby can be daunting, and when you're experiencing postnatal depression or anxiety it can seem even more overwhelming.

TV noise can slow toddler word learning, study finds

Background noise from the radio or TV might be making it harder for your toddler to learn learn new words.

Teresa Palmer on her molar pregnancy and 'unsexy' conception

Teresa Palmer is basking in pregnancy glow as she awaits the arrival of her new baby.

 
Advertisement
 

Top 5 Articles

Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

Why drinking water can be deadly for babies

H2O is one of the necessities of life, but for babies a seemingly harmless amount of water can be fatal.

5 ways having a baby is different when you have older children

So much parenting advice is geared towards having your first baby, but what's it like having a baby when you already have children?

You can now make your own plush Falkor

Fans of The NeverEnding Story – of which there are certainly plenty – went crazy for these plush Falkors when they first went on sale last year.

Baby steps

10 things that will actually happen after having a baby

I thought I had prepared myself for motherhood. Then my baby girl arrived and knocked everything flat.

Having a baby: expectations vs reality

People love to warn you about what to expect when having a baby, but they can be way off when it comes to the reality.

Are we having fun yet? Thinking positively as a parent

Motherhood is wonderful ... except when it sucks.

The adorable smile of a baby seeing his mum clearly for the first time

There is no doubt seeing their child smile for the first time is an unforgettable moment for parents everywhere.

When breastfeeding doesn't go with the flow

Breast is best, except when it's not. And in our case, it most definitely wasn't.

'If you don't vaccinate your kids you're a bloody idiot'

The photos are heartbreaking and almost too difficult to look at, but Kayley Burke is begging other parents to take notice.

Why pregnant women should eat chocolate

In news that will make expectant mums jump for joy - and reach for a block of Cadbury - scientists have revealed chocolate could provide health benefits during pregnancy.

The baby born with an incredible head of hair

If you're in any way challenged in the follicle department, prepare to feel a jolt of envy - at a two-month-old baby.

The push for Medicare to fund lactation consultants

While meeting with a lactation consultant can make an enormous difference to a new mother, it's not a service that is available through the public health system.

Parents, this is how to cut grapes to avoid choking

One mum has learnt a harrowing lesson about the best way to cut grapes to make it safe for toddlers and little kids to eat.

Three truths about C-section mums

Lately I've been thinking about the caesarean stories and the brave women who birth their children with strength and beauty.

Help! My baby will only sleep in my arms

It's stressful to be the one who is holding your baby most of the day, but it's even more stressful to wonder, 'am I doing something wrong? Or am I creating bad habits?'

 

Free ticket offer

Essential Baby & Toddler Show - Sydney

The Essential Baby & Toddler Show, presented by Blackmores, will be held in Sydney on 23-25 September. Register for your free ticket now to save $20!

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.